I Think Schneider Deserves The LF Community's Loyalty

[eugene_singer]

Scott, I think that your statement that Fuji and Nikon don't deserve OUR business is what sparked off this heated discussion. You can only speak for yourself. Only you can decide where to spend your time, energy, and money. Perhaps fuji and Nikon have alienated YOUR affection because they don't satisfy YOUR need to be hyped by a spectacular website. As you can see, you don't have many supporters on that point. I first learned about Fuji and Nikon lenses from people I trusted. Then, verified what they told me by actually using them for a period of time. I suggest that you try to do the same with the equipment you decide to buy, and quit trying to convince US that YOU are right, and that WE are the mis-guided ones.

[tim_atherton2]

Scott,

 

did it ever occur to you that Fuji and Nikon might be quite happy not to have customers like yourself...?

 

I know in my business if a client with such an attitude turns up, they are rarely welcome back again, and word soon gets around

[dave_schneider]

Mr. Fleming, I don't believe I said that an hourly employee was tasked with convincing you to buy anything. What I said was that I would rather have one of my technical applications engineers discuss your needs with you rather than simply posting specifications on a web page. Specifications are not an answer to anything. Did you purchase your last car based on the specications? I doubt it. Not every factor that goes into a decision can be quantified. As to your dismissing salesman as being professional liars I would have to question who is out of date. From maintaining airliners to prescribing the drugs we use, sales people are taking a larger role. The reason is that most companies do not allow their employees the opportunity to become as well educated in a specific field as a manufacturer's sales person. The pharmaceutical sales person is not a doctor and doesn't pretend to be. When it comes to the testing, application and implications of a specific drug there is nobody better educated than that pharmaceutical sales person including your doctor. The story at the local Circuit City is somewhat different I'll grant you.

 

As an earlier poster pointed out, the web is really an advertising medium. I would no sooner buy a lens only because of the manufacturer's web site than I would select one based on their advertisement being printed as two color or four color.

[scott_fleming1]

My statements may be intemperate but your's are nonsensical. I and any other sensible consumer will be far better off indeed not doing business with any provider who resents questions, analysis and discrimination.

 

I am regularly and ever amazed at consumers who make no demands of service and product providers other than price and results. I'll take an equal and even lesser product from someone who values my business and honors my loyalty in a reciprocal manner. AND I will happily part with more money. Obviously there has been some massive if not conspiritorial psychological manipulation performed by the globalist captains of industry.

 

But true character shines through and is easily recognizable for those who have eyes to see.

 

Tim, your attitude is indemic and illustrative of what is wrong with the world today.

[tim_atherton2]

well my zip code is the same as that for Area 51, so I guess I must be part of the global conspiracy to deceive LF lens users....

[jean_marie_solichon1]

"I have a brochure of Nikkor lenses with tech specs that I got from a camera shop. It's in english BTW."

And I have the same one in french language, so they know how to translate japanese into french as well: they are improving aren'they?

[dave_schneider]

But Scott, unless you have had some more experience with Schneider in the last few days, you are basing your decision only on their presence on the web! I certainly don't argue that we all would do well to look beyond initial purchase price when making a decision. We need to look at customer service, warranty support, applications assistance and all the other things that generate a loyal customer. I have been extremely happy with Schneider in the US. I have had lenses in for repairs and been very happy. I have had conversations with Schneider staff in which they helped me solve problems which were not related to the lens at all. They have been great. I can also say the same thing about Rodenstock's US distributor as well as many dealers from whom I have purchased Nikkor, Fuji, Schneider and Rodenstock products. Your initial comment indicated no experience with the company or it's dealers and distributors, only with their web site. That is what so many of us have found to be ridiculous. You blasted the hourly wage earner professional liars who some of us would call salesman and applications support. Yet you are completely taken in by the information on a web page that perhaps some high school kid programmed in his spare time.

 

As to Tim's comment that you may not be a customer those companies want, I certainly understand his comment. I have several very large corporations that I avoid doing business with simply because they are what I refer to as high maintenance customers. These customers have endless questions prior to purchase, only about half of those questions germain to the prodcut I sell. Once they purchase the product they have even more questions, their expectations are different than stated before the sale, they can't run the equipment until you go out to the site and hold their hand and in the end they are never quite satisfied. The bottom line is usually a very low profit sale. And that is the reason I am in business, for making a profit. If I thought a better web site was all I needed I would eliminate my sales staff and save several hundred thousand a year. I can refer you to several failed companies in my industry that tried that approach.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

I have to disagree with everybody here except Fleming. Not because I agree with his position, but because we are trying to convince him (who has never used a LF lens) that Fuji and Nikons are quality products worth having. He wants to buy Schnider exclusively, by all means Scott, whatever floats your boat. Those of us who have been using these lenses for years know not all fit the bill for all situations and I think this is one lesson Scott should learn by himself as he seems to dismiss the advice given.

 

Scott, if you do decide to buy a lens let us know what you got, and if you get the 210 mm XL, can I borrow it?

[jim_galli4]

Dang, I always seem to get to the party late. Hey Scott, I live in a town that only has one car dealership. Ford. I used to drive

Fords but you know what? You can see where I'm going. I will agree with you that Schneider has the MOST presence as far as showing interest in the continuance of large format photography. As Kerry Thalmann pointed out in his View Camera article they're the only company that is marketing new products and ideas in this area. That said I'll have to say I'm like everybody else. I work hard for my hobby dollars and I want the MOST bang for my buck. I own a bunch of lenses and I'm going to say 60% are Schneider. They got that 60% because of "bang for buck" not web presence. Hey have you checked out Yamasaki Congo's website. It's great!!

[eugene_singer]

Massive conspiracy by global capitalists??? Scott, you need a lot more help than anyone on this panel is capable of offering. Seek professional guidance, for your own sake!

[david_caldwell]

I agree totally with Scott Fleming's main point that none of the other large format lens manufacturers have anything comparable and as useful as Schneider Optic's website. You have to look up Paul Butzi to download Rodenstock's MTF curves. Thallman has posted some MTF curves for a few of the Nikon lenses but nothing comprehensive. I think Fleming's decision to buy only Schneider is OK for the reasons he gave although I would not be so loyal. I can say that I favorably impressed by Schneider's webpage. It exudes professionalism to a high degree. Fleming's critics should switch to decaf. I think each of the other lens manufacturers has something unique to offer that they do not advertise, or do not advertise well. I particularly dislike the Rodenstock distributor advertisements as artistically and graphically dull but I love their products. How could they possibly select an image of a broken chain that lacks high resolution to emphasize the quality of their lenses?

 

I am curious as to why the other lens manufacturers have not improved their webpages and advertising. Perhaps the market is too small to warrant the expense. Maybe a particular lens manufacturer is already at near capacity and could not produce more lenses without undergoing costly environmental changes to their manufacturing facility. I have never seen any indication on the web as to whether Schneider large format lens advertisements and website have led to expanding market share or product sales.

 

What bothers me about the Schneider Optics webpage is my lack of ability to understand the MTF graphs. I suspect these might not be representative of 19/20 of the lenses made, but reflect merely the theoretical best attainable. I wonder whether the vast majority of lenses underperform these graphs. At one time Bob Solamon posted a statement that Rodenstock lense may underperform the MTF graph by - [minus]10%. It was not clarified by him whether this meant a drop from 40 to 36 in resolution, or from 40 to 30. Perhaps none of this may be meaningful in the real world, if any shortcoming in lens resolution is easily offset by decreasing magnfication in making a final print or by selecting a larger size film format that can be covered by the lens. You get more bang for the buck going from 4 x 5 to 5 x 7 than by choosing a more expensive lens simply because of slightly elevated MTF curves compared to a competitor's lens.

[bob_salomon]

"Bob Solamon posted a statement that Rodenstock lense may underperform

the MTF graph by - [minus]10%"

 

Sorry if you misunderstood me.

 

Rodenstock is an ISO 9001 qualified company. Any claims they print will be

met by the buyer of their products.

[butch_welch]

Wow! What a Pandora's box! I don't want to support any side of view on this one but I would just like to say this about Schneider, and I never used to be a fan of their lenses. Schneider has introduced many new lenses in the last couple of years that expand our capabilities as photographers. The Super Synmmar XL series has huge coverages and asheric optics. The 210 will cover 12x20, the 150 covers 7x17/11x14, the 110 covers my 5x12, 7x11 and 8x10 (these are real world coverages, not manufacturers specs). The Super Angulon XL has increased coverage. Except for new lenses designed for digital use with sharper definition and smaller image circles, no other manufacturer has done anything to support the film using community except to update the W, WS, Sironar, Symmar lens lines with slightly increased coverage. They all make great lenses, I have some of each in my bag. But only Schneider deserves any kudos for giving us lenses that will do something that wasn't available just a couple of years ago. Thank God someone is still designing new lenses for us.

[robert_a._zeichner1]

"If you are relying on some hourly employee to convince me of ANYTHING ... your reliances are misplaced. Clerks and salesman are

paid PROFESSIONAL liars. They are the LAST person I listen to when buying ANYTHING".

 

Okay, now you've got my attention. I've been a salesman for the last twenty years. All three companies I have sold for have served a professional market and have devoted huge amounts of resources to educating and training their respective sales forces to not only understand the technology they sell, but to learn the art of asking the questions necessary to understand their clients business needs. This, to enable the salesperson to make useful suggestions and recommendations, not to lie and mislead. And this is exactly what I've tried to do for the past twenty years. To listen to my clients, you would probably come away with the impression that I have been a resource to them and have, in the long run, saved them money and frustration, which might explain why so many of them have followed me from one company to another and still do business with me. This is what a good salesman does. It's not what every salesman does, but not every LF photographer can make a image worth the paper it's printed on either. There are good salespeople and not so good salespeople. There are good photographers and not so good ones. And then there are opinionated people with nothing better to do than make sweeping generalizations and alienate everyone they come in contact with! I've had a few clients like that over the years and I could never help them. They didn't want to be confused with facts. But, I try to remember that they represent only a very small percentage of the total number of otherwise wonderful people whose trust I've worked hard to earn.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

Well said Robert! In the line of work I was, my salesman were of invaluable help to me, many going beyond the call of duty helping me with tests so that I would consider buying their products in the future. If we follow your reasoning Scott, then there is no profession which cannot be derided. All doctors are quacks, all lawyers are cheaters, etc, etc....

[wayne_crider4]

Hi Scott.

 

Enjoy your Schneiders.

 

To everyone else; Apparently we'll never have to answer a lens

question for Scott again I guess? OK.

[ed_candland1]

Well-said Robert....

 

If someone wants to support Schneider because they have made advances in LF optics lately and the others haven't, I can understand that.

 

If someone wants to support Schneider only because they have the slickest website, where I can access all that their marketing department has to offer with a click of a mouse. Well, I just don�t know what to say.

[mark_tucker2]

Everyone,

 

This guy has baited you, and you've run with the cheese. He has

absolutely no interest in pursuing photography; he only wants to

bitch and moan and get someone to listen to him. You've seen

his kind, I'm sure. There are twelve-step groups for guys like this.

He'll never buy a Schneider; he'll never buy an Ebony; he'll just sit

on the web and act like he's doing something substantial with

his life, spinning his wheels, yet never producing a result.

 

Please do not continue to reward him. Don't let him suck you into

some brand-war; it's just not worth it.

 

If I was the moderator here, I'd say "Thread Closed".

[ed_candland1]

Funny thing Mark and it happens every time. Good topics peter out in 4-5 answers. Posts like this go on and on and on and on and on............And EVERYONE has to put their 2 cents in, even you and me. ;-)

[name_unknown29]

Wayne, What is this "we" you speak of? If "we" had ham, "we" would have ham and eggs, if "we" had eggs. And for the rest of you ooser-lays, I have gone out and captured several world class images while you have been seething at the keyboard. I only happened on this thread by trying to look up some recipes for bloomer pudding. Thank You (FOR NOTHING)

[ken_hughes3]

rodenstock is just waiting for everyone else to catch up...:)

 

if this whole conversation wasn't so funny, it would be sad.....

 

wait, it is a bit sad

[kelly_flanigan1]

As I peer into my Xenar of 300 millimeters; I adjust the chrome crystal ball to F4.5; and predict the future of this thread.

[john_kasaian1]

As a "Bottom Feeder" in the LF Ocean I suppose I don't deserve the respect of any of the Big Nine(see, I count Wollensak, Kodak, Goerz, Zeiss, and Ilex)as I have yet to buy a brand spankin' new lens though I've come pretty close thanks to Robert White's G-Claron deals. With opportunistic abandon then, I humbly offer my services to those who wish to free themselves of lenses built by those insensitve people at Nikkor, Rodenstock and Fuji who treat us like ants in the attic..errr Aunts in the Attic. Send all those Grandagons over to me! Exile those Ms and APOs to my Igloo where they can't harm anyone ever again! I'll carefully guard them(especially those Grandagons!)I promise!

[martin_casper]

To me it seems silly to base your decision on what a web site looks like. Why not base it on the tangible qualities of the lenses themselves? If you can't determine the tangible qualities or will never be good enough to make subtle differences tell, why not decide based on the intangible qualities of your chosen lens or brand?

 

Remember that for modern equipment not constructed from ebony wood, some intangible qualities are much more legitimate than others. This is not a fashion show for modern equipment not constructed from ebony wood.

[m0002a]

As is often the case, people are confusing the manufacturer with the US importer and distribution company. Schneider Optics USA and HP Marketing are the US distributors for Schneider and Rodenstock products respectively.

 

Nikon USA is the importer and distributor of Nikon products. Unlike Schneider and Rodenstock, Nikon large format lenses are a tiny part of their overall business in 35mm, digital cameras, scanners, microscopes, instruments, etc.. They basically import the large format lenses as a courtesy. FujiFilmUSA does not import large format lenses into the USA so obviously they do not have information on their US website. From an overall company standpoint, large format lenses represent a miniscule part of the Fuji Japan.

 

Both Nikon and Fuji have Japanese web pages with a fair amount of information. But obviously not many people can understand what they say. The German Schneider and Rodenstock manufacturers do have websites (in addition to the US importer websites) with English translations, but this is normal for all EU companies.

 

For the privilege of purchasing a lens from Schneider USA or HP Marketing you are paying a rather hefty markup that covers the cost of those US websites and the other support they give. A quick glance at prices from Robert White will bear that out.

 

I suspect that at least some of the people who toot their horn about being loyal to Schneider or Rodenstock have bought these products from Badger Graphic, Robert White, or someone else other than the official USA importer that pays for the websites and the extra support.