Angry, defensive, bitter.

[picturesque]

<p>Marc--of course I've wondered the same thing--how to sustain a reasonable body of accomplished porfessionals. I've tried to introduce topics myself to try to spark interest in posting--not only answering newbie questions, but it seems there is only so much that can be done about the ebb and flow of photographers 'passing through' photo.net, or any forum, actually.</p>

<p>An important part of the reason a photographer becomes invovled in a forum is obviously--what he or she gets out of doing so. For some, it is the warm and fuzzy feeling of helping someone (that is a big one for me). Plus all kinds of bits of information--both technical and otherwise--that one can pick up. Staying abreast of trends is another. Then, there is what you said long ago--one can learn a lot by answering newbie questions--just by having to review your instructions. One could stumble across a new way of thinking about things just in the act of having to write instructions for someone.</p>

<p>Of course, stimulating discussion among professionals is always great, but we've all noticed the drop off in that area. I don't know the answer(s). It could be that people get burned out. It could be that people get busy just trying to survive and don't have time. It could be that they go to other forums seeking new people to bounce off. I do know that when I've tried to get anything going, I don't get a lot of response. I don't know if it is because established photographers don't want to give away their knowledge anymore.</p>

<p>I also notice we have less newbie questions. I think newbies are not asking questions from established photographers much anymore. They help themselves. Which is why you see multiple photographers shooting weddings, and newbies hiring second and third photographers right after shooting their first wedding. They talk to each other on social media networks.</p>

<p>As for those paid forums, I belong to one. The one big advantage is that the forum is private, so one can discuss client problems without worry. I belong to pick up technical information and know about trends. However, it has (like every forum) it's own set of cliques and is not immune from infighting and ego clashes. Newbies and outsiders are sometimes not treated well there either, and closed minds still exist there.</p>

<p>I also know that if one wants something to change, one has to become the change. I realize it is difficult and demoralizing when one puts out effort, and gets little response. However I don't see another way. So if you are a long timer and are reading this--please--let's discuss stimulating topics--post some.</p>

[francie_baltazar]

<p>Hey Nadine - I think you do a great job being inclusive and inviting as well a moderating. I did notice one thing that i thought was strange. I use to be gone for week, two maybe a month come back and find a long list of topics to brouse through - now they don't even fill the page... so it appears that there is a lack of activitiy on the forum - I'm guessing this is changed for the entire photo.net... but now I can come in look and 10 minutes later be onto another forum. I think if there were more posting on the main page as before that would help. <br>

Also I think info at the top of the forum to help with newbies would be very beneficial. I also agree there are many places you can get info... so it's has to be compeling to come here.<br>

I love photo of the week - and I would suggest it be with a topic - Like, rings, cakes, groups, first dance, reception, cermony etc. and instead of picking just one photo maybe pick 3 to make comments on. it might just change it up enough to get some more action on that...<br>

In addition a topic of the week would be nice -<br>

just some thoughts... francie</p>

[joshroot]

Francie, the "more posts on front page" issue should be fixed.

[francie_baltazar]

thanks Josh!

[picturesque]

<p>Thanks, Francie. And thanks for your suggestions.</p>

<p>If any others have opinions, I'd like to ask what you all think of having a 'newbie' sticky--either helpful text or pointing to the archives.</p>

<p>As for the photo of the week--I have tried to do multiple images in the past and people just get confused and don't post. Although--I certainly would be willing to try it again. Any comments from others?</p>

<p>I had the same idea re wedding themes, and did the 'first dance' thread recently. I thought the results were 'medium'--again--any comments?</p>

<p>Topic of the week has possibilities, although I think a week is too short a time. Plus there would have to be effort on all of our parts, suggesting topics, which can be done just in the course of being active on the forum...as I was saying above.</p>

<p>I find that people just sit back and take in information--and don't post. To repeat--if you want to have stimulating discussions, start some, participate in some...(not pointing the finger at you, Francie--I appreciate your suggestions).</p>

[green_photog]

<blockquote>

<p>If any others have opinions, I'd like to ask what you all think of having a 'newbie' sticky--either helpful text or pointing to the archives.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>There's nothing wrong with this idea per se but if everything can be referred to posts in the archieve, what would this forum become?</p>

<p>If you go to the gear forums, it is the same full frame or cropper, what lens to choose, Nikon vs Canon questions repeating themselves day after day. And yet those are precisely what kept those forums alive.</p>

<p>I guess for a forum to thrive, it is not just the knowledge contained there that's important but the interaction between all the users in a purposeful way.</p>

<p> </p>

[fotografz]

<p> </p>

<p ><em>"There's nothing wrong with this idea per se but if everything can be referred to posts in the archive, what would this forum become?"</em><br>

<strong>Easier for a newbie to use?</strong><br>

<em>"If you go to the gear forums, it is the same full frame or cropper, what lens to choose, Nikon vs Canon questions repeating themselves day after day. And yet those are precisely what kept those forums alive."</em><br>

<strong>As you say, those are "GEAR" forums where one would expect such questions to be asked frequently.</strong></p>

<p>I don't think the idea is to shun the less experienced. This is an open forum where all are supposed to be welcome. What needs exploration is how to attract and keep the more experienced so the less experienced have a resource AND the experienced wedding photographers can exchange ideas with one another.</p>

<p>After thinking about the challenge put forth by Josh and Nadine, one thought I had was that the less experienced actually don't know what questions to ask ... and the more experience may not ask questions here because it has become more newbie oriented ... so who is going to answer my questions?</p>

<p>For example, when I have a Lighting question, I go to the p.net Lighting Forum where the experts are ... sometimes including Nadine. There I get a number of options to consider, not just the same ones over and over.</p>

<p><strong>Consider this: </strong></p>

<p>Compared to the more segmented p.net forums which deal with specific photographic subjects, the wedding forum encompasses virtually every one of them and then some ... Lighting, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Medium Format, portraits&fashion, documentary, business of photography, etc</p>

<p>However, as wedding photographers we <em>also</em> have some very specific challenges that are somewhat unique. Very few photographers are tasked with "no second chances" assignments except maybe photojournalists. Very few have to edit and post process 500, 1,000 even 2,000 images X how ever many weddings one has. On average we push through 15,000 images a year in a 6 month window of time. That there aren't more questions pertaining to these subjects is perplexing.</p>

<p><strong>Rather than just outlining concerns, we all should forward some ideas and notions to make the forum even more attractive and fun.</strong></p>

<p>For example, perhaps once a week a more experience shooter could post a finished shot that presented a challenge that they met ... then challenge the forum to figure out how they did it. Personally I love those sorts of puzzles ... and while it may be the more experienced that answer, the beginner WILL learn something valuable. </p>

<p><strong>The forum doesn't HAVE to be just member initiated questions does it?</strong></p>

<p>I don't see why Nadine can't privately ask a few more experienced shooters to provide topics for How to questions, or just ask them herself. </p>

<p><strong>How</strong> do you handle 1,000 images ... what is your post technique?</p>

<p>If you don't have enough background for a 8X10 print order, <strong>how</strong> do you add it? ... show examples.</p>

<p>What do you do when the MOB takes over the photo shoot? <strong>How</strong> would you handle it?</p>

<p><strong>How</strong> do YOU make money right after the wedding?</p>

<p>What is your long term follow up (if any) with wedding clients. <strong>How</strong> do you sell baby/family/business photography after the fact?</p>

<p>Even gear questions could be more interesting ... <strong>How</strong> do you think the new crop of mirrorless cameras will fit into wedding photography? This technology is destined to become ubiquitous. Anyone using such a camera now to shoot weddings? (Personally, I'd love to hear answers to this question.) </p>

<p>These are just a few very common things we all face to some degree or another. There are many more ... some of which the newbie doesn't even know about until it happens to them... and then it's to late ... so they won't ask such questions until after the fact, if at all.</p>

<p><strong>Your thoughts?</strong></p>

<p> </p>

<p><br /></p>

<p><br /></p>

<p><br /></p>

<p><br /></p>

<p><br /></p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>Marc, GREAT post! This is why I at least try to make posts that do help me, but also are good conversation pieces. I REALLY love when people post images as examples too, because after all, we ARE photographers. </p>

<p>I like Francie's idea as well of picking a theme for POW, and perhaps picking a few images to allow for critique. One week engagement shoots, next week shoes, next week rings, beauty shots, editorial style images, bridal portraits, family formals (this I actually think is VERY neglected, and would be very important for both newbs and those of us who have been doing it a while to get some new ideas, and general points for posing).</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>I think I can count myself in as a seasoned, experienced photographer that visits the forum much less than I used to.....if anyone is interested it is directly related to the lack of appreciation shown by those posting the questions and the multitude of opinions expressed by hobbyists, wannabes, and those who apparently just like to spend time writing/rambling inexperienced thoughts for the world to see.....</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Thanks for the suggestions, Marc. I will take everything into consideration and ask for even more suggestions from anyone.</p>

<p>I will say, though, that in the past, questions generated by me have not been so popular. I don't know why--maybe it is because I'm the big, bad moderator. I think, though, that an offshoot of your suggestions may have promise. I notice that situational questions (about weddings) always get responses. I may take that idea--the MOB taking over, for instance--and go with a periodic situational question. Then maybe branch out, if successful, into other areas--digital processing, shooting technique, etc.</p>

<p>I'd love to host a Challenge of the Week (or month, etc.), and not to be negative, but again--it hasn't been too active when I've initiated something. I will keep trying if you all think it has merit though. In the past--the Master Lessons come to mind--I've literally run out of experts that have the time to post anything.</p>

<p>Please keep suggestions coming... And any comments about any aspect.</p>

<p>By the way, David, I am interested in your opinion. I notice it hasn't really changed all these years, though, and I want to point out that photo.net's wedding forum was never intended to be, and probably never will be, a pro photographer only forum. We are always going to get (and welcome) questions from...anyone interested in photography.</p>

<p>As for showing appreciation for information given, I'm afraid the lack thereof is a product of the current times--information is easy to get, and free, on the internet. Not making excuses, but it is a fact. Perhaps if some of the suggestions work out, you may find something of interest to you, but you certainly don't have to give away any free advice. We cannot force the forum to be what we want, but we can take from it what we want, and as always--leave the rest.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Good thoughts Nadine.</p>

<p>I've also noted that when you post some sort of challenge it sometimes goes unanswered ... so the folks on this forum have to realize that this is THEIR forum and without their input and participation, it just becomes a blog for a few individuals.</p>

<p>Perhaps it needs to be more of a specific call ... encouragement to post a specific issue you need answers for. A perfect example of this is Melissa Papaj's entry for "photo of the week" where she wondered how in the world she could get the smudges off the glass.</p>

<p>Also, here is a thought to run past the p.net administrators ... is there a way to somehow make a larger example available for the photoshop challenges? Only for that, not every image post. Perhaps the call for examples stays 700 pixels wide, but once selected it is posted at least 1200 pixels wide, or made available some other way. Fixing tiny jpgs is pretty off-putting, and I for one have tried my best, but am getting less and less inclined to participate even though I am pretty good at photoshop. Just a thought.</p>

<p>@ David ... we miss you buddy. Gruff and tuff aside, you have expertise that is fast becoming a lost art. Even though my style is pretty different from yours, I had to face the fact that many clients still wanted traditional group shots and family photos in my geographical area ... so who do others with the same problem learn from? IMO, ignore the internet ingrates ... there are still those that need any assistance they can get, even though they may not freely admit it. </p>

<p>We also need guys like Neil Ambrose back here ... preferable him, but others like him would work. Neil took some heat when he posted here and maybe that put him off, who knows? But just like how members should ignore the inane questions rather than be nasty, we all should stay more open to alternative approaches that may be 180º opposite of our own. </p>

[joshroot]

<blockquote>

<p>Also, here is a thought to run past the p.net administrators ... is there a way<br />to somehow make a larger example available for the photoshop challenges? Only<br />for that, not every image post. Perhaps the call for examples stays 700 pixels<br />wide, but once selected it is posted at least 1200 pixels wide, or made<br />available some other way. Fixing tiny jpgs is pretty off-putting, and I for one<br />have tried my best, but am getting less and less inclined to participate even<br />though I am pretty good at photoshop. Just a thought.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Do keep in mind that the 700 pix limit is just for "in-line" display. You are welcome to upload larger files(as long as they are under 100K in filesize), they will just display as a link and not in the thread. If you need to upload an even larger image, the better solution may be to upload it somewhere into the PN gallery system. Or contact me and I will stick it somewhere on the server so people can access it.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>In the past, I've just offered to e-mail larger files to people, when the image was mine. I could still do that with other people's files, too.</p>

<p>I believe Neil is on to bigger things, last I heard. Let's wish him all the success he deserves.</p>

<p>Still waiting for more suggestions, folks.</p>

[ricardovaste]

<p>Dropbox is a good way of easily sharing larger files via a public link.</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>There are those shots that are just staples of what we do. Perhaps we could share more examples of how we shoot those and perhaps challenge ourselves to do it in more dynamic ways. Like I'm editing images from a current wedding and I'm looking at the readings from the ceremony, it's the same just person at a podium I pretty much always get. For the cake cutting, is there an optimum angle to shoot this at? From the front, from the side, etc. Bouquet toss, same thing, I tend to take the shot from the front, but the other day I saw on here a photo that showed it from the side and I was like WHOA, I dunno why I never thought of that! I'm not saying there is a single right answer, but it'd be neat to see different examples of how people do the bread and butter shots and see if anything cool and new comes up. </p>

[bobcossar]

<p>*Vail.....something you might try for the bouquet toss....needs the bride and an accomplice.....is to tape a small video camera to the bouquet.....then, if it works well in the toss, include the clip in their slide show... regards, Robert</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>hahahaha. Robert, I'm gonna assume that was actually a very funny joke, and made in light of the videography thread. ;)</p>

[bobcossar]

<p>Woah....And some people call <em><strong>ME</strong></em> cynical!</p>

<p>No Vail, I was completely serious.....try it, practice it.....you may find something you like about it.</p>

[savagesax]

Something that will be new shortly are wedding clients wanting still pics and video. It's right around the corner.

 

I know, the cameras are already here. So Richard even the top pros here will have to be sympathetic, because on the new style of weddings. It will be a big learning curve.

 

I've been on the Canon forum asking a question about the new 1Ds Mk 3, just when it came out. I got blasted by several people. Same with the medium format section trying to help someone fix their hasselblad, instead of sending it in for several hundred bucks. Well I got yelled at there too. People saying I didn't know what I was doing. Well the guy sent me the camera and I fixed it for free and the guy posted that I fixed it. No one responded.

 

Not every site is perfect or a fairt tale. But these sites are alot of fun and places to learn and sometimes have a laugh