How to achieve such a sharp pic ? - please advice

[William Michael]

<p>Hello Ricardo,<br />Thanks for answering my question about why you friend thought it was Rear Curtain Sync: correct your friend did not detail “why” they thought rear curtain sync was used in that particular photo, but did give good documentation of what it is and there is some good extra info in your friend’s comments.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>I very much like your “layman’s” approach to photography, especially the finding the “two hot girls” . . . I suggests no drinking – it makes it more difficult to focus!<br />Seriously . . .<br />Your summary indicates to me that you have more than enough understanding to get out there and begin “doing it”: there is little need for you to ponder on this any longer as you will learn much more and learn more quickly having a go at it and making a few mistakes and then correcting and refining, now you have the general theory under your belt.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>You asked for comments:<br />Specifically:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>3) Use manual setting, AV F1.4, TV - set to the lowest possible ? ie 1/2 sec or slightly faster depending on the environment. ISO keep it low to 100-200 (instead of the usual recommended 800-1200)<br /><br /></p>

</blockquote>

<p>The choice of Tv and Av and ISO is dependent upon the lighting and what you want to achieve in the final photo: but yes if you want to experiment then do so. The only (strict) guide I shall give is that once you have decided about the DoF you require (i.e. choosing the Av), then your choice of Tv and ISO should be guided by and is dependent upon the Ambient Light.<br />The club was VERY DARK, so a Tv = ½secs at ISO 100 (and Av=F/1.4) was suitable such that the AMBIENT light’s exposure did NOT overpower the FLASH exposure.<br />What I mean is, generally we want the Ambient Light’s Exposure to add “feel” or “ambiance” to the photo – and for that ambiance to be in the background, as a “palette” and for the Flash Illuminated Subjects <em>to sit in front</em> of that palette . . . but also <em>to blend with</em> that background palette.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>4) Use the Mounted Flash with diffuser / soft box - this is the tricky part - what setting -<br />Flash Mode - E_TTL II<br />Shutter Syn - 2nd curtain / Rear Curtain Sync<br />E_TTL II meter - Evaluative<br />Depending on the brightness of the subjects in picture, we then adjust the exp comp, ie -1 or +1 ? to get the final PERFECT SHOT!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes! Bravo!<br />To begin with, I suggest you let the Flash ETTL, do the work for you: then have a look at the results and then adjust the Flash Exposure Comp if need be – adjustment is often necessary if there is a large light/white area in the foreground, like a Bride in a White Wedding Gown, for example . . . perhaps not many in dance clubs . . . then again maybe!<br />Seriously, the more you “do it” the more different shooting scenarios will become clearer to you and you will become more intuitive and react and make adjustments accordingly – PRACTICE!<br />There are other nuances, for one example, about using Evaluative ETTL-II metering,</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>If you want a good (canon specific) reference book, then I recommend: “<strong>Mastering Canon EOS Flash Photography</strong>” by <strong>NK Guy</strong><br />Also there are many (Flash) talented folk here. You can search by topic “Flash” or “Canon Flash” etc. <br /><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=271274">Nadine Ohara</a> is one of the best “on location and on the hop flash technicians” I have encountered – she has made many comments specifically on the use of <strong><em>Canon</em></strong> Flash gear.<br />An expert specific in <strong><em>Flash Usage in Clubs</em></strong> and such is <a href="../photodb/user?user_id=19592">Jeff Spirer</a> – he has <a href="../learn/club-photography/photographing-bands-musicians/">written a piece which you should read</a> and has several comment in various threads here.<br /><strong>Neil van Niekerk </strong>also has a website which deals a lot with Flash Techniques.</p>

<p>***</p>

<blockquote>

<p><br />The first 4 ET pics that you have produced, you are trying to show the effect of using long TV setting, ie from 1/2 sec to 4 sec and how it affects the background, ie from dark to bright ...<br />is that the same theory as "ambient opened up 3 stops" ? - how you know how many stops ?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes.<br />The first set of four ET Pictures were to show how the increase in the Tv affects the AMBIENT EXPOSURE (of the background palette) and how lengthening the shutter speed does NOT affect the FOREGROUND (Flash Illuminated) SUBJECTS.</p>

<p>Yes.<br />When I talk about “opening up the ambient 3 stops” I am referring to the fact that my (base) ambient exposure, for the room was: F/1.4 @ ½s @ ISO100 (that’s the photo of ET in a dark room).<br />Then, in #2, I made a photo of ET with flash – but I kept that same AMBIENT exposure.<br />In #3, #4 and #5 I have kept the SAME FLASH exposure but juts INCREASED the AMBIENT exposure by increasing the SHUTTER SPEED – and the result is: the background palette becomes brighter.</p>

<p>I speak in “Stops” – “<em>increasing the ambient 3 stops</em>” , because if the Av stays constant at F/1.4, and the ISO stays constant at ISO100, then from Tv = ½ second to Tv = 4 seconds is an INCREASE in EXPOSURE of three stops: i.e. ½s - 1s – 2s - 4s “three stops”.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>On other matters raised:<br />The Canon 60D has Second Curtain Sync, it will be found in the Custom Functions; you should read that manual in conjunction with your 320EX manual, if you want to use second curtain sync.<br />Also, some photographers use Av Mode to make photos such as the example.<br />There will be another Custom Function in the EOS 60D which will allow the Tv to be set to the Flash Sync Speed, you do NOT want this activated, <em>as for the purposes of this thread we are discussing using a SLOW Tv to INCREASE the AMBIENT LIGHT exposure</em>.<br />However, note that in Av Mode (and Flash Sync speed NOT set) the camera will choose the Tv to use based upon the exposure reading it makes via the camera’s TTL light meter – this might NOT be an accurate reading of the AMBIENT LIGHT (or the “Background Light”).<br />In this regard, whatever mode you use and <strong><em>especially if you use Av Mode</em></strong>: you need to understand fully, what the camera’s light meter is reading.</p>

<p>In answer to your other questions: I have formal qualifications and accreditations in Still, Cine and Television & Broadcast and I wrote a doctoral thesis on the use still photography in advertising.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>“You can <em>have it simpler making <strong>intelligent use of automatics.</strong></em> As you might need fast action, just use aperture priority.”</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The words “intelligent use” are very important.<br>

Please see the end of my previous.<br>

In Av Mode the camera will select the Tv which it will use – this MIGHT NOT be what we want if the background is darker than the foreground subjects which the camera might be metering.</p>

<p>I am unsure what the phrase “<strong><em>you might need fast action</em></strong>” means? <br>

Would you please explain that phrase, in the context of this thread / club photography</p>

<p>WW</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>After thinking through on how dragging the shutter works . . .Once room ambience levels get too high then you get into double exposure territory between the two light sources . . . At least that's how I understand it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes. I understand your conceptualization - 100%<br>

I “understand it”: by thinking of it as a “balance” between two competing exposures. <br>

And that is one way I teach it, too.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[jan_h._voigt]

<blockquote>

<p>The words “intelligent use” are very important.<br /> Please see the end of my previous.<br /> In Av Mode the camera will select the Tv which it will use – this MIGHT NOT be what we want if the background is darker than the foreground subjects which the camera might be metering.<br>

I am unsure what the phrase “<strong><em>you might need fast action</em></strong>” means? <br /> Would you please explain that phrase, in the context of this thread / club photography<br>

WW</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Of course, one needs some practice to guess quickly which amount of exposure compensation will work right. In a club, it often works good with Exposure compensation set to -2 with center-weighted metering or with no exposure compensation and spot metering a light spot of the background, as highlights are often overrated in dark situations.</p>

<p>By "you might need fast action" I mean that in a club, the two hot girls you found might dance away if you have to fiddle with your settings for half a minute before you are ready to shoot. If the lighting situation does not really change, of course, you can test, find the right settings and then go scouting for the girls...</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Thanks for the explanation of that phrase, it is now clear to me what you mean.<br>

WW </p>

[ricardo_o]

<p>Hi everyone,<br>

Thanks for commenting! :-)<br>

<strong>Tim Lookingbill</strong><br>

Yup, that is a good point that you stated...<em>Once room ambience levels get too high then you get into double exposure territory between the two light sources acting as two separate shutter release speeds where room ambience is much slower (1/2sec.) and flash is much faster which accounts for the different colored edge ghosting</em><br>

<strong>William W</strong><br>

Thanks for giving more direction on the flash - i will definitely read up on the books recommended n also follow up on the flash experts...<br>

I will remember not to use <strong>Flash Sync Speed </strong>mode if i want to reproduce the discussed pic.<br>

Can we sidetrack this a bit? ie Can you explain what is "Flash Sync Speed" mode - possible to show 1-2 pics - how the picture will turn out ? </p>

[ricardo_o]

<p>Hi Jan H. Voigt,<br>

Thanks for your comments, can you please further explain on the "center weighted metering" and the "spot" metering mode?<br>

using the original pic as reference....<br>

the two girls are the main focus point ...<br>

and just ripping off a magazine explaination of "<strong>center weighted metering</strong>" - focuses on what is at the center of the frame and takes much less account of light levels at the periphery. ie the the dark back will remain dark...<br>

that is why we use the long TV, and also rear sync flash to "brighten" up the background...<br>

this is my understanding....please correct me if i am wrong ....<br>

as for your "<strong>Spot metering</strong>" mode , i am not sure how it works ...<br>

ie from the photography magazine, i am seeing a WHITE SWAN in a DARK LAKE ...but i am unsure how to apply that to a club setting ... ie (do i use that mode, when i see a Hot Babe in White Top / Dress" in a dark club environment? :-)<br>

or a white base subject with a beam of light on him/her, in a dark enivornment ... ????<br>

and lastly, yes, i think i need to improve on my speed........FAST FINGERS! :-)<br>

the worse feeling is that you have 2 hot subject posing for you , giving you the perfect pose, and you cant figure out what mode/camera setting to use ...</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<blockquote>

<p>In a club, it often works good with Exposure compensation set to -2 with center-weighted metering or with no exposure compensation and spot metering a light spot of the background, as highlights are often overrated in dark situations.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>What's a bummer with my Pentax K100D is it loses Exposure Compensation settings once the camera is shut off. And if I leave it on for long durations to retain this setting shooting with flash, my batteries soon die. Certainly with a more expensive camera with a dedicated battery pack this won't be an issue.</p>

<p>Just thought I'ld include that for those planning on using EC with cheaper cameras having fewer features.</p>

[jan_h._voigt]

<blockquote>

<p>What's a bummer with my Pentax K100D is it loses Exposure Compensation settings once the camera is shut off. And if I leave it on for long durations to retain this setting shooting with flash, my batteries soon die. Certainly with a more expensive camera with a dedicated battery pack this won't be an issue.<br>

Just thought I'ld include that for those planning on using EC with cheaper cameras having fewer features.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yeah, that's right. I love my Contax 167MT where exposure compensation is just a dial and auto-exposure-lock saves the exposure until I switch the camera off or the batteries die. The latter happens after a few weeks or so...</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Hi Jan H. Voigt,<br /> Thanks for your comments, can you please further explain on the "center weighted metering" and the "spot" metering mode?<br /> using the original pic as reference.... [...]</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Plain old Center-weighted metering measures the light in the whole image, just rating the center a bit higher than the rest. In general, highlights are often overrated by the metering system as they often are several stops brighter than everything else in the picture. This would lead most likely to blown-out spotlights with washed-out colours in the background and underexposed hotties in the foreground if there was no flash. As you want to adjust the ambient exposure so that you get nice coloured spotlights in the background and as-near-as-possible-to-unexposed hotties in the foreground, you will need some exposure compensation, -2 EV is often just right. Add the flash and your hotties are there.</p>

<p>(Classic) spot metering measures the light in a spot in the middle of the viewfinder (modern digital cameras somtimes are capable of spot metering an other spot). To be exact, it's not a spot but a small circular plane aroud that spot that is measured. Using this technique, you can adjust the background exposure to a Spotlight in the background which will lead into perfectly exposed spotlights and with that to nice coloured spotlights which is what you want. That's why you don't need exposure compensation here.</p>

<p>Maybe this is the fastest way to get the picture: Set the camera to aperture priority and the flash to auto for the right ISO setting and the right distance range (or maybe to the right TTL-flash setting, don't know what your camera provides), spot meter a spotlight, press the AE-Lock button, point onto the eye that you want in focus, half-press the shutter release to autofocus, recompose, shoot.</p>

[jan_h._voigt]

<blockquote>

<p>Can we sidetrack this a bit? ie Can you explain what is "Flash Sync Speed" mode - possible to show 1-2 pics - how the picture will turn out ?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Flash sync speed is just the fastest shutter speed of your camera where the full frame is opened for a moment so that a flash can be used, often 1/125 or 1/250 s. Flash sync speed mode is an automation that sets your camera to that speed automatically when you use a TTL-flash or the internal flash.</p>

[andrewg_ny]

<blockquote>

<p><em>"What's a bummer with my Pentax K100D is it loses Exposure Compensation settings once the camera is shut off. And if I leave it on for long durations to retain this setting shooting with flash, my batteries soon die. Certainly with a more expensive camera with a dedicated battery pack this won't be an issue.</em><br>

<em>Just thought I'ld include that for those planning on using EC with cheaper cameras having fewer features."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Tim, I don't remember noticing this with my Pentax DSLRs and this isn't what the manual says either (p.147, <em>"The exposure compensation cannot be canceled by turning the camera off or by setting any other exposure mode."</em>). Pretty sure that it also remembers FEC (flash exposure comp) and nearly all settings across power off (there are a few exceptions like possibly self timer and bracketing might be cancelled?). Newer Pentax bodies (K10D+) usually have a setting called 'Memory' where you can determine which settings get reset on power-off. </p>

<p>Also, I would think that you shouldn't need to actually power off the camera that often during a single event--the camera has an auto power-off with a configurable delay. I expect all settings will be retained when the camera is woken with a half-press. With auto-power off, very little battery power is consumed while camera is in standby, the main reason for a full power-off is more to lock the camera to 'off' so that incidental button pushes won't wake the camera or perform functions.</p>

<p>Anyway, I find the easiest way to manage balance of ambient light and flash exposure with TTL flash is using manual mode. I rarely use other modes like P/Av/Tv for flash. TTL flash essentially turns manual into an autoexposure mode--set shutter/aperture/ISO for desired level of ambient light (background), and subjects will be exposed automatically by the TTL flash. Adjust subject exposure level using FEC. Incidentally, this is one area where the K100D is a little annoying--flash exposure compensation for the built-in flash is buried in the recording menu so annoying to change repeatedly. With later Pentax bodies this can be adjusted more easily by hitting Fn => Flash => e-dial (or green button to reset to 0).</p>

<p>As for sync, you can't adjust it for the built-in flash on the K100D, it's fixed to Leading Curtain Sync. On the K10D and newer however there are settings for slow-speed-sync (a sort of automated drag-the-shutter) and Trailing Curtain Sync. Even on K100D however if you're using a hotshoe unit like AF360FGZ there is a switch on there for trailing vs. leading curtain sync.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Ricardo,</p>

<p>There is more than one method to come to the result in the sample image that began this thread and no one method is “correct” or “better than” any other.</p>

<p>For example, if JHV were shooting in that club I suspect (he?) would be very comfortable using: Av mode / CWA metering and Exposure Compensation. On the other hand, typically, I would use Manual Mode and Spot Metering, using the spot meter to evaluate the (different) backgrounds in the frame, as I moved around shooting. Both methods can be very quick in execution.</p>

<p>Practice makes for efficiency and speed. </p>

<p>To be good at this, IMO it is also necessary to understand how <strong>each different method</strong> of execution will work – <strong>and practice each and experiment</strong>; and also learn how each camera function works - for example the differences between Spot and CWA metering: that was a very good question to ask.</p>

<p>After practice and experimentation, then usually one way of doing things will become "the typical" for you.</p>

<p>This is a very valuable thread and I have bookmarked it for further reference, my thanks to all, also.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p> </p>

[jan_h._voigt]

<blockquote>

<p>Ricardo,<br>

There is more than one method to come to the result in the sample image that began this thread and no one method is “correct” or “better than” any other.<br>

For example, if JHV were shooting in that club I suspect (he?) would be very comfortable using: Av mode / CWA metering and Exposure Compensation. On the other hand, typically, I would use Manual Mode and Spot Metering, using the spot meter to evaluate the (different) backgrounds in the frame, as I moved around shooting. Both methods can be very quick in execution.<br>

Practice makes for efficiency and speed.<br>

To be good at this, IMO it is also necessary to understand how <strong>each different method</strong> of execution will work – <strong>and practice each and experiment</strong>; and also learn how each camera function works - for example the differences between Spot and CWA metering: that was a very good question to ask.<br>

After practice and experimentation, then usually one way of doing things will become "the typical" for you.<br>

This is a very valuable thread and I have bookmarked it for further reference, my thanks to all, also.<br>

WW</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thank you William for expressing my thoughts! (You're right btw., Jan is the german version of John or Ian and is therefore a male name)</p>

<p>And thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread as I rarely have seen such a nice and analytical discussion in a forum before.</p>

[ricardo_o]

<p>Hi everyone ! thanks for all your advice and comments, really appreciate it ! I hope to take some pics in the near future and share with you guys!<br>

Cheers!</p>