To buy an SQ-Ai or 500CM?

[mark_l6]

<p>Well, I honestly think if you're not a gear fetishist, you will get photos that you will be just as happy with from the Bronica as with the Blad, you'll be able to expand the system much faster should you get the urge, and if you really decide that 6x6 is the way forward for you and you want the best, it really won't cost you much to sell it all and get the Hasselblad.<br>

Although I like the very best in gear, I doubt very much if with good technique and a good eye, your prints will be distinguishable with the Bronica from those taken with any other system. After all, back in the day plenty of professionals used SQ-A's and got totally professional results. In fact, from what you say I reckon you would be just as happy saving a bit of money and spend it on film and getting to interesting places to take photographs. Good luck whichever way you go.</p>

[david_smith35]

<p>Quinten,You can keep on trying to come up with reasons why mirror slap (or more correctly camera release vibration) is not important, but it is. Years ago when I owned a twin lens reflex, virtually all my photography was hand held with no problems from camera shake. When I changed to an SLR roll film camera, my success rate from hand holding dropped to the extent where my favourite camera accessory became a tripod - and still is.<br>

The only major difference was that I was now using a camera with a moving mirror and rear shutter - I didn't suddenly develop a case of the shakes overnight. The only 'madness' would be to blame anything else but the movement caused by using a camera with extra levels of mechanism vibration</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Well, David, that you can come up with such a story does not change anything. I have come up with a similar but opposite story earlier in this thread. So there. ;-)<br>It's a simple enough matter, and you can test it easily too. But if you choose not to test or 'believe' it, that's fine with me.

[david_smith35]

<p>Quinten, I didn't come up with a 'story' as you put it - it was an opinion based on my own experience. The bottom line is that both our opinions are just that, and very subjective with no scientific proof. So there!</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Not quite, David.<br>I have told you both why it isn't an opinion based thing and how you can test that it indeed isn't (well... the fact that you can test it yourself already removes it from the realm of opinion, so make that: you can test that it holds truth, i.e. that the reasoning behind it and practice are in agreement.)<br>So there! ;-)

[david_smith35]

<p>Wow Quinten, I think I need someone to interpret your statement - you certainly don't beliieve in keeping things simple, do you? I was only giving an opinion based on results from my own personal experience. I certainly wasn't trying to make my self look cleverer than anyone else, or start an argument. I'm sorry if I've hit a raw nerve wigth you.</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

No raw nerve, David. (Why would you think that?)<br>And difficult to understand? It's not opinion, and you can see why not yourself? Not simple???<br>8O (<- emoticon expressing amazement. That is, i hope it is.)<br>But you're of course absolutely free to stick to your opinion, regardless. ;-)

[david_smith35]

<p>Thank you Quinten, I fully intend to do so as I expect you will - irrespective of who is correct.</p>

[dave_wilson1]

<p>Amazingly good lunch fodder. To my eye, and past printing experience, there is no question whatsoever that the mirror slap causes a distinct vibration that is noticeable more so at certain shutter speeds. John Shaw also has some pretty good writing on this in one of his earlier books, pre-digital, concerning Nikon 35mm film bodies. The movement from handholding at a slower shutter causes that certain movement blur that has it's own look distinct from the mirror vibration "astigmatism/distortion?" if you will.</p>

[zack_zoll]

<p>Wow. This discussion has gotten really silly. How I'm reading it (and apologies if I'm missing some subtext) is that QG is saying that it's pointless to worry about mirror slap when there are bigger problems, and the folks arguing with him are saying that no, mirror slap is still in issue. QG didn't say it isn't ... just that it's not worth worrying about when there are bigger issues.</p>

<p>Let me give you an anology based on how I am reading this thread: a man walks into the emergency room bleeding profusely from a gunshot wound to the stomach. While examining him, the doctor notices he also has appendicitis, which I've probably just spelled wrong. What does the doctor treat first? Both of them are potentially life-threatening, but since a gunshot wound is more immediately fatal, it would be 'madness' in QG's words not to treat that first.</p>

<p>The mirror slap, for those that didn't pick up on it, is appendicitis.</p>

<p>Yes, it's an issue. But it's not an issue even worth considering while handholding, only because there is a much larger issue inherent to handholding that you absolutely cannot correct. Granted, you can use mirror lock-up while handholding, but unless you're using a very wide lens the act of handholding means that you will probably move your composition while the viewfinder is black; plus you still haven't addressed the larger issue.</p>

<p>Rolleis and other TLRs are easier to handhold not just because they don't have a moving mirror, but because the position from which they are used is more stable. Your elbows are pressed against your sides, and the neck strap may be tight. Holding the camera in this way will help more than removing mirror slap. You'll find that using a Rollei with a prism finder, you will get shaky images at almost the exact same rate as using a similarly-long lens on a Hassy or a Bronica.</p>

<p>Again, you can try to correct the problem but it isn't worth the effort, since a much larger problem is inherent. Do yourself a huge favour and stop thinking about it, because you'll drive yourself mad.</p>

[sfcole]

<p><strong>irrespective of who is correct.</strong><br>

Just please don't say "irregardless...."</p>

[predrag_vranic]

<p>as for the mirror slap - I never shot with speeds below 1/125 with my SQ-A without MLU. actually, I even shoot with MLU with faster speeds. I just don't trust the huge amount of vibration with SQ-A and I've learned over the years the importance of steady shots, even with larger negatives.</p>

<p>as for the Bronnie vs. Hassy - even though I am one happy Zenzanon user I'd suggest you to go for 'Blad if your budget allows you to. Why? simply before there's greater market for used 'Blad stuff while used SQ gear offerings are shrinking in numbers. few years ago it made sense to pick Bronnie instead of H'blad because the price difference was really huge, nowadays it's quite different. And, I have to repeat myself - search yourself for used gear for both systems and you'll see for yourself. The numbers are on 'Blad's side... e.g - try to do some search for used backs for Bronnie and you'll exactly know what I mean.<br>

Also, if you at some moment wish for shift/tilt options for your photography it'd be much easier for you to get Flex-body than to invest in another set of lenses.</p>

<p>Don't want to bring more confusion here but i think the first response in this thread was great - why not pick 6x7 system instead of 6x6? You can always crop later, and the difference between what you get from larger negative is really noticeable in any reproduction size. If I only knew that back ago when I picked my first MF system I'd have picked RZ67 - greater negatives/slides, offers macro and tilt/shift options and much more.</p>

[david_henderson]

<p>I've just sold a very extensive Bronica outfit on eBay. It all went, nothing left, cameras , lenses, accessories. So much for no market for used Bronica bits.</p>

<p> </p>

[dionysios]

<p>Predrag, I have been looking closer to prices and it although basic kits for Hasselblad 500CMs are a few hundred dollars more than those for the SQ-Ai, it is the lenses that cost twice as much. I remember what was said about the "quality" of the lenses, it is noted, I don't want to start another debate. Backs don't seem to be much different, it seems. I'm leaning towards the Bronica. And about the 6x7, that's for the near future I think, but I want to compose through the lens with just a square frame, not crop from a rectangular frame.<br>

I thank everybody for the discussion and for helping me out. D.</p>

[q.g._de_bakker]

Your looking at it from a seller's perspective, David.<br>It perhaps all went that completely because <i>"used SQ gear offerings are shrinking in numbers"</i>, i.e. the market looks quite less favorable from a buyer's perspective?<br><br>Not that i think it shuld influence a decision. Perhaps you need a little bit more patience, but i'm confident you can get what you want without too much trouble whatever way the decision goes.

[q.g._de_bakker]

Zack,<br><br>That's a perfect explanation of the point i was trying to get across.<br>I wouldn't worry about my fridge intermittently switching off when and while the house it is in is in full blaze. Some people apparantly either would, or would point out that the disaster of having your home burn down is even greater than you thought it was because the fridge in it needs repairs.<br><br>I don't agree with your assessment of Rolleiflexes handholdability. You can hold any camera with waist level finder that way. That doesn't 'come with' they being TLRs.<br>And i don't believe Rolleiflexes (or other TLRs) are more 'handholdable'. I never noticed any of it using my 'flexes.<br>You're right about prism finders, though the 45 degree prisms most makers offer are very good, still allowing to press the camera against your body. It's the 90 degree prism that is a worry, because it makes you raise the thingies up in front of your face, floating in space, only supported by your hands.

[predrag_vranic]

<p>David, I was speaking from buyer's perspective only.</p>

[Wilmarco Imaging]

<p>As you can see from the number of posts, there is complete unanimity on this question. ;) </p>

<p>I also like the 6x7 format, and have an RB67, which I recommend. RB67 and RZ67 gear is plentiful and can be found reasonably priced these days. I have handheld an RB67 shooting outdoor portraits, and have seen others do it as well. </p>

<p>My personal experience with Hasselblads is that the lenses are excellent. The camera systems are nice to look at. However, they are priced higher, in my view, than is justified, due to the brand name. If you compare price points, Hasselblads I have seen are in more worn condition than other brands in the same price range. I'm not complaining, it's just my view. </p>

<p>If you want high quality images with 120 film, there are many ways to do it. Get what you like in your price range; it's hard to go wrong. </p>

[sallymack]

Dionysios, I purchased a Hasselblad 500 C/M about 10 years ago after having used a 35mm for many years.

 

The Hasselblad allows me to take the pictures I see.

 

Everything else is pretty much irrelevant to my choice of camera: the cost, the quirks, the learning curve, the tripod I cart

around, the hand-held meter, composing in square format, careful focussing. Every time I think I've made every possible

mistake with the Hasselblad, I do something else dumb. It's not the camera, any problems I've had are a result of operator

error.

 

The tripod is necessary because I frequently shoot at low shutter speeds. I rarely shoot hand-held.

 

It's my first experience with MF, I don't know if I'd be as happy with some other outfit, but I'm thrilled with the Hasselblad. --

Sally

[david_smith35]

<p>Regarding the comment about prism finders - the waist level finder is by far the easiest to use when pressing the camera body against yourself to steady it. The 45 degree prism is somewhat more difficult to use (though not impossible) in this respect.</p>

[r22eng]

<p>Dionysios,<br>

Do you really need more than the "normal" lens on the 6x6?<br>

If you want to maximize the image quality of the format use a tripod.<br>

Bronica vs Hassy? Do you need a several focal lengths for what you do? Will the 6x6 be your main money making camera or a hobby?<br>

The Bronica is pretty good for the money you spend. Lens quality is less of an issue when you go with a larger film format since you are not typically magnifying the print as much.<br>

Concerning mirror vibration. If you are using a strobe as your main light source the mirror vibration becomes less of a problem. If you are shooting available light handheld at 1/125 and above the mirror vibration will not be a real practical issue.<br>

The real consideration is how well you tolerate carrying the MF camera, film backs, and lenses hiking all day. A TLR with auxillary lenses may be another option depending on how critical image quality is to you. The Mamiya C220 or C330 were pretty good.<br>

Best of luck. </p>

[r22eng]

<p>Dionysios,<br>

Do you really need more than the "normal" lens on the 6x6?<br>

If you want to maximize the image quality of the format use a tripod.<br>

Bronica vs Hassy? Do you need a several focal lengths for what you do? Will the 6x6 be your main money making camera or a hobby?<br>

The Bronica is pretty good for the money you spend. Lens quality is less of an issue when you go with a larger film format since you are not typically magnifying the print as much.<br>

Concerning mirror vibration. If you are using a strobe as your main light source the mirror vibration becomes less of a problem. If you are shooting available light handheld at 1/125 and above the mirror vibration will not be a real practical issue.<br>

The real consideration is how well you tolerate carrying the MF camera, film backs, and lenses hiking all day. A TLR with auxillary lenses may be another option depending on how critical image quality is to you. The Mamiya C220 or C330 were pretty good.<br>

Best of luck. </p>

[dionysios]

<p>Sally, thanks for that good POV.<br>

Ricky, do I not need more than a normal lens? Well, I'm comparing with what I use on a 35mm. I use the 20's and 30's mm lenses more than the 50mm, significantly more. But I'd like to have a 50 equivalent; I guess I could just get closer, but the image isn't the same. No, I don't need many focal lengths I think, but I think at least two with a large difference would fit my habits. What do you think? Photography is a pursuit, a vehicle for my artistic expression; so I don't make a living from it. I guess I will be using my tripod more now. I agree that weight will be a consideration when I'll get out there, so I'll have to organize it and I'll just have to experience it. I have 2 TLRs and have used a C33, and I do like them. Do you think that a C330 with different lenses will give better image quality than an MF SLR? Thanks, D.</p>

[photo5]

<p>Having owned both the Bronica and the Hasselblad, I'd lean toward buying a Hasselblad, particularly the 501cm. It is new enough that parts will still be available now and down the road. Finding Bronica service might be difficult, particularly finding parts. However I do think Bronica ETRS series and SQ series are superb cameras, and their later lenses (PE, PS) are superb as well. Buying an older Hasselblad (500cm) means you may have to get it serviced sooner than later, which can be expensive when you consider there are three parts to a Hasselblad (back, body and lens). A full service can be $600 or more.</p>

[r22eng]

Dionysius,

The Hassy with a 50/65, 80, and 150 would be a nice outfit if money is no object. I owned the SQ with the same

lenses and was satisfied with the results. If you are patient you can build your Hassy system over time. Repair of

Bronica equipment will be more of a problem going forward. Hassy gives you a migration path to digital if and when

you want to transition. Hassy costs more. But if you are in photography for the long haul get the Hassy.

 

The Mamiya C330 with aux lenses might be good enough and a lot easier to carry.

 

The Hassy gives you more options.