Wedding cancelling with only 40 hours notice?

[daverhaas]

<p>Daniel - </p>

<p>The only reason I would request certified mail is because that way there is proof positive of the recipient and receipt of the same. A physical signature is required. </p>

<p>On e-mail - there is no way of knowing if the sender is who they say they are, just as there is no way of knowing with 100% certainty who received / read the email. It is relatively easy to hack into someone's email, mark all messages read, then exit. Just as it is easy to log into someone else's e-mail and send a phony message. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[sarah_m10]

<p>She said they're still getting married, they just didn't have enough money to pay for everything today so had to cancel & they'll get married later. She said she lost a lot of money from her other vendors. I didn't say this, but it always confuses me when people have so much paid for & then lose it all instead of just working with what they have... but maybe that wasn't possible. She signed the release form with me & my assistant there & didn't want a copy for herself. She asked for a refund & I said I could work something out with her if she rebooked with me. I'll likely email her in a few days & offer to do a different type of photoshoot with her if they're not setting up a new date.</p>

<p >@David Haas - Yes I have everything saved, thank you. 3 was close but I had time to spare & brought all of my equipment & wedding attire with me, just in case. It scared me at first because when I got there at 2:50 the girl at the register said she didn't think she worked today & the place is a small company, maybe 4 employees, but she was there.</p>

<p > <br>

@John Henneberger - It says "Wedding Photography Contract Release: I, (Client), release (Photographer) of all liability, responsibilities and commitments and services regarding our “Wedding Photography Contract” signed (date we signed), regarding 8/17/2011 wedding. I hereby forfeit my deposit and all payments made without further obligation, and no further monies, goods or services are due or owed by either party (photographer or client)."<br /><br />@Daniel McGarrity - I use USPS mail because I had one person cancel on me via email (2 years ago) through another person & it went to my junk mail. I didn't see it for almost a week & there was no subject line & I almost didn't read it because it looked like spam. For some reason I read it & the wedding was a week away & they lived on the other side of the state. I haven't had any other cancellations aside from the one 2 years ago & the one today, but I should probably edit that part of my contract.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p> it always confuses me when people have so much paid for & then lose it all instead of just working with what they have...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree. Just have a cheap wedding using what was already paid for and get friends and relatives to help out with the rest (cooking food/supplying flowers/photography/etc.)</p>

[nishnishant]

<p>The woman seems to have had barely enough money to get married and yet she goes ahead with hiring a pro-photographer. That explains a lot about her spending habits which she must have further proven with her other vendors too. A fancy wedding is all good but not if it sets you back financially for months. The wedding is more important than any glamor/partying around it.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>I am curious about the need for a USPS certified mail. You can go to jail threatening the president via email, why on earth would an email not work in the same situation?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Because photographers don't have the Secret Service at their disposal to verify the accuracy and source of emails and texts like the one used here. No one else can receive the correspondence and delete or forget to tell the photographer. Because not all clients will sign a statement like Sarah obtained. The client has to produce the 'gold standard' personally signed/abandoned/rejected green card to prove they told or attempted to tell the photographer there is no shoot to occur which can be an issue sometimes. But, mostly, to avoid the kind of situation here. Of course this particular method is slower and the last moment nature of the announcement caused some chaos which can be expected in general when things are down down to the wire. Here, it seems to be handled quite well.</p>

[dirtlawyer]

<p>Your appear to have been paid in full to date. That puts you in the driver's seat.</p>

<p>Your measure of damages is the contract price less any money you have laid out plus your expected profit. Work that out and refund the difference. That way you are made whole (i.e. you get what you expected to get). </p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>Your measure of damages is the contract price less any money you have laid out plus your expected profit. Work that out and refund the difference. That way you are made whole (i.e. you get what you expected to get).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Huh?</p>

<p>Lets pretend that we were never told about how the contract explained the liquidated amount the photographer gets to keep trumping the formula quoted above (assuming the contract scheme is enforceable). ..</p>

<p>We are told to first subtract expenses from the contract price. The answer to that equation happens to be the profit that would have been realized. We are next told to add to this amount the profit. So, in other words, add profit to profit to get double the profit. Even though that makes no sense, we are then told to refund the difference without any explanation as to where this difference is derived from leaving us with some mystery amount to be subtracted from this double profit we currently have. Then somehow that calculates to what the photographer was going to get.</p>

<p>Here's the explanation quoted above in equation form:</p>

<p>Contract price - expenses = profit + profit - ??? = damages</p>

<p>Definitely not the measure of damages in a breached contract.</p>

<p> </p>

[john_h.1]

<p>Looking at it again the quoted text is ambiguous and it could also be...</p>

<p>contract price - (expense + profit) = profit.</p>

<p>In reality contract price minus expense is the profit e.g. $1,000 fee - $300.00 expense = $700.00 (profit) This alternative formula derived from the quoted explanation would be $1,000.00 - ( $300 + $700) = $0. Which makes no sense.</p>

<p>There's a third alternative using "would have laid out" to mean expenses that didn't have to be incurred because of the cancellation... (Contract price - expenses avoided by photographer due to breach) + expected profit = profit.e.g. ($1000.00 contract price - $100.00 expenses avoided) + $200.00 = $1,100.00. A windfall the photographer would never realize.</p>

<p>A fourth alternative, which actually DOES make sense, if if the "plus your expected profit" was meant as minus instead....</p>

<p>Contract price - expenses incurred - expenses avoided. e.g.. ($1,000.00 Contract price - $200.00 expenses incurred - $100 expenses avoided = $700.00. Since the photographer would have made $700.00 had the wedding gone forward because they would have had to spend $100.00 in addition to the $200.00 already spent, that formula is the correct one. It matches the $1000.00 fee minus the $300.00 expenses to get $700.00.discussed above</p>

<p>Final conclusion: If a photographer will be able to recover damages in lieu of liquidated damages/retainer clauses the formula is... Contract price - expenses incurred if any - expenses avoided if any = what photographer was going to make.</p>

<p> </p>

[steve_shepard]

<p>DO NOT TRUST A TEXT MESSAGE!!! Anyone could have temporary possession of the client's cell phone and you may be sued for a no-show. Confirm that the cancellation is official. If you can't contact client in person or by phone try the person officiating the wedding. Cancellations can be a very emotional issue for some clients who may not want to take phone calls or meet with anyone at all. If confirmation is made I would send a Certified Return Receipt Letter to the client with a cancellation form and a stamped return envelope requesting that they sign it and drop it in the mail. Whether you receive the signed cancellation form or not you can go from there in recovering a cancellation fee... Small Claims Court, etc. It is up to you how far you will want to take the issue depending on the situation.</p>

[dmcgphoto]

<p>For those who think an email isn't enough, and I accept your premises, but seriously do you think an email that says a contract is altered or changed that drastically wouldn't come with a phone call from the professional? Seriously?<br>

As for the hacking, yes, it could happen, and so could the asteroid that came down and hit right next to the zoo where all the monkeys are, who then get out and go into an Apple store (monkeys love fruit) and start typing, sooner or later one of them has GOT to send that "Please cancel my wedding photography" email off to everyone's bride.<br>

I believe in being prudent, I stake my business and reputation on that, but I also believe that when emergencies happen at the last minute, that means the last minute. You can create all kinds of documents and forms to cover your assets after the initial email and verification, As for the email going in the spam folder, again, take precautions, like not having a spam filter automatically delete emails. And check the dang folder regularly.<br>

And stay in touch with your client, regularly.</p>

<p>As for a text message, Umm I didn't say I'd trust a text, I'd call the number if that was the case.</p>

<p>Now as for a refund, Deposit is yours, liquidated damages, whatever your deposit is. Remaining monies are pretty much<br>

Contract-Deposit=Remainder<br>

Remainder-Expenses=profit<br>

I would keep Expenses+Deposit. Refund what remains.<br>

This is one jacked up situation here.</p>

 

[dmcgphoto]

<p>Just to be clear, Sarah, you seemed to have done absolutely everything I would and I applaud you for your tenacity. it's a credit to our profession.<br>

As to being cheeky about the email and the hacking, c'mon I was just being cheeky.</p>

 

[richard_king2]

<p>You need to re-look at your contract. mine says that<br>

1. all payments are non-refundable<br>

2. payments are staggered<br>

3. in the event of a cancellation, no fees will be returned<br>

The reasoning behind this is that the closer you are to the date, the harder it is to get a booking for the date<br /><br />I have had one cancellation, and they tried to get the money back, and failed</p>

<p>there are several reasons for a cancelation<br>

- they split up<br>

- they screwed up the finances<br>

- someone died somewhere, and the wedding got postponed<br>

My view is that if the client has made all the moves themselves (they booked you, they are cancelling on a whim, or have screwed their own finances, then they dont get the money back. If soem reasonable mitigating circumstance (father died, venue burnt down for example) shifts the wedidng date, then I do my best to accomodate the move<br>

Wedding insurance companies have a similar approach</p>

<p> </p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>Contract-Deposit=Remainder<br /> Remainder-Expenses=profit<br /> I would keep Expenses+Deposit. Refund what remains.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The first problem with this suggestion is that it deviates from almost all contract terms that set a pre-determined amount of damages in case of breach. Unless those terms are unenforceable, those terms govern.</p>

<p>The second problem with the suggestion is that its premise is faulty. Remainder minus expenses isn't profit.</p>

<p>The third problem is that, where there are no predetermined damages, default legal remedies apply which this is inconsistent with.</p>

<p>The correct equation is...<br>

Total contract price - expenses actually incurred - expenses that would have incurred = the profit that would have been realized had the contract been performed. IOW: so called expectation damages.</p>

<p>The fourth problem is that contracts that don't have a date reservation/non refundable retainer type terms may be unenforceable if the photographer never has to actually perform which brings us full circle to the first problem if the photographer wanted to avoid that problem.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>3. in the event of a cancellation, no fees will be returned<br /> The reasoning behind this is that the closer you are to the date, the harder it is to get a booking for the date</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Liquidated damages that amount to the entire fee should not be expected to be enforceable in court. Especially when the profit would not have equal the full fee.</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>Sarah, for any future contracts you make, please be sure you have a cancellation policy right in your initial contract. That way there is less to be contested. Here's how mine currently reads. I got it from the one my own personal wedding photographer used when my husband and I got married, and then adapted it to my needs.</p>

<p><strong>Cancellation Policy:</strong><br>

It is understood that the deposit paid by the Client is for the purpose of reserving the Photographer for the Date indicated on the cover page. In the event of cancellation of this contract by the Client, (1) six months or more prior to the Date, the Photographer shall retain $300 of the Deposit for photography, the remaining balance of the Deposit shall be returned to the Client; (2) less than six months prior to the Date, the photographer shall retain in full the Deposit; and (3) thirty days or less prior to the Date, the Photographer shall retain the Deposit and the Client shall promptly pay the photographer, as liquidated damages, half of the remaining contract Balance set forth on the cover page here of less the amount of the Deposit (the “Cancellation Fee”).</p>

<p>I don't have any specifics about the means of canceling, perhaps I should put that in somewhere. But having to get things to you only via certified mail when email and text messages are things that are used in court these days seems a bit of overkill. Just be sure that you then call the person back, and get another confirmation from them, to make sure it wasn't some horrible prank someone pulled on them.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>text messages are things that are used in court these days</p>

</blockquote>

<p>These have been used in court for a long time. That's not the issue. Just because evidence admitted happens to be the only evidence someone has, doesn't means its the more desired kind.</p>

<p>The green card is so often still used as required notice protocol because its easily obtainable and easily and reliably authenticated. Anyone can print something looking like a computerized communication. If you don't like overkill, try subpoenaing internet entities to authenticate a document. Also, it is necessary with some carriers to preserve text messaging in advance or within a few days. The is a charge for such services too. Instead of putting a phone in to evidence, someone can take a picture of the screen but that has its own issues. There's a reason that so many legal communications feature certified mail. There are so many examples, Worker compensation commissions require them, Insurance companies use them for policy cancellation warnings. Do you really think these computer heavy entities would use certified mail for no discernible reason if these other methods "are used in court these days"? Overkill? How hard is it to get a card in the mail? If something is important to someone, its not that big of a deal to send one either.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>thirty days or less prior to the Date, the Photographer shall retain the Deposit and the Client shall promptly pay the photographer, as liquidated damages, half of the remaining contract Balance</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm a fan of structured fee retention for legal reasons but a scheme that requires collection of funds not already held has practical hurdles and maybe some legal ones as well. I suppose the potential for going after the unpaid fees from a canceling client might deter them from making demands about the funds already turned over but, that means forgoing trying to collect unless the client first makes a fuss to get back fees already paid.</p>

<p>If one really wants to keep a set amount of money in the event of something going wrong, its best to be holding it all when it happens. Collections activities are burdensome, undesirable and often ineffective.</p>