Mamiya 6 vs Bronica

[a.d._isaac]

Right now I have an opportunity to acquire a Mamiya 6 6x6 120 camera. It would be in exchange for a trade; a valuable item I don't have much use for anymore. I'm currently in negotiations with the seller (he wanted $2500 for the Mamiya 6 plus three lenses.) The camera is in mint condition, by the way.<br /> <br /> I'm hoping this deal goes through, but if not, I may buy a different kind of 6x6: a Bronica. This is a totally different kind of camera. It's of the big "cube" design, with a pop-up waist level viewfinder (some have prism eyepieces that make it more like a conventional SLR.) Fairly clunky and heavy, and a good deal more primitive than the Mamiya 6. Also, totally different focusing system (the Mamiya is a rangefinder.)<br /> <br /> The big benefit of the Mamiya is its compactness and convenience. The big downside is the price.<br /> <br /> The upside of the Bronica is the low price, and the vintage-cool factor. And the thing does <em>look</em> pretty damn cool. But the handling and maneuverability won't be great.<br /> <br /> All things being considered, which would YOU rather use? I've seen lots of great shots on Flickr from Bronicas, but I assume the learning curve would be a good deal greater.<br /> <br /> Any opinions?

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[alvin_lim5]

<p>they both are very different cameras but are capable of producing great results. ultimately it boils down to what you need the camera for.</p>

<p>for me, for $2,500, i would go for neither and settle for the hasselblad 500cm and a couple of lenses ;-)</p>

[a.d._isaac]

<p>Here's the thing. I don't actually *have* $2500 to spend on a camera. What I have is a very valuable rifle that I am wanting to trade for the Mamiya 6 being offered by the seller. He is receptive to the trade, but we are still in negotiations at the moment. I am hoping that by tomorrow we will have worked out the details and the trade will be on. But if it falls through, that doesn't mean I have $2500 to spend on a different camera. It means I have to find another camera that is more within my budget (which the Bronica is.)<br>

I've seen tons of shots on Flickr made with Bronicas that all look fantastic, so I'm sure the camera can produce excellent results. The main benefit of the Mamiya seems to be the convenience, and the fact that it's more modern.</p>

[marc_batters]

<p>Similar analogies can be used when comparing shooting guns or cameras. <br /> It boils down to using the right tool for the job at hand; long shots vs near, wide vs close-up, etc...</p>

<p>Mamiya 6, a rangefinder, will be a much faster handling/shooting camera. Shoots more like a 35mm SLR. <br /> Easier to carry, better for fast action shooting, street photography, and photo journalism style of shooting. <br /> Definitely not the first choice for portraiture or still life photography.</p>

<p>Either camera will render excellent landscape shots mounted on a tripod.</p>

<p>A SLR Bronica kit will be a bit bulkier, a bit slower to use, but will be a much better choice for portraits, and still life's. <br /> For close-ups, or macro photography, the SLR Bronica is basically your better, or only choice between the two.</p>

<p>Lenses provided for the Mamiya 6 & 7 rangefinders are legendary...second to none, and lenses for the Bronicas are also highly regarded. <br /> Medium format demands high quality lenses, so comparing lens quality between the two systems is sort of a moot point; they're both good.</p>

[russ_britt3]

<p>As far as cameras go they are both great choices as well as Hasselblad. <br />But in today climate I would not be getting rid of a rifle.....</p>

[kparratt]

<p>Tuning in to Russ Britt's mentality, here is a scenario. He gives you the camera, and you hand him the rifle. He turns the rifle back on you, and says: "Now hand over that camera."<br /> <br /> Then all jokes aside - ditch the weapon, and get on with your life and take some good photos with that beautiful Mamiya.</p>

[jerry_sousa]

<p>Sell the rifle for cash. Then buy the camera that you really want to own and use. I would echo the first respondent's suggestion...Hasselblad.</p>

[david_henderson]

<p>For many years I've had a medium format slr- Bronicas in fact- and a 3 lens Mamiya 7ii system. They are each excellent cameras, but I found myself using the Bronica for about 80% of my photographs. They are not good at the same things, and complement rather than compete with each other. <br>

The Bronica scores when</p>

<ul>

<li>You need to frame something accurately</li>

<li>You need long lenses . You can easily get a 250mm for the Bronica </li>

<li>You want to use grads. I have found it very difficult to position grads accurately with a Mamiya RF</li>

<li>When you need to see depth of field ttl. You simply can't do it with a rangefinder, and the lens barrel markings are close together and somewhat optimistic.</li>

<li>If you want to get in close. Mamiya lenses tend not to focus at close distances and there's no macro lenses available. </li>

<li>In my experience the Bronica repair /servicing people in the uK have been more helpful and cheaper than the Mamiya equivalent.</li>

</ul>

<p>The Mamiya scores when</p>

<ul>

<li>You need to work handheld. IMO I get better results from a Mamiya 7 at 1/15 handheld than I do from a Bronica.</li>

<li>Your situation with security guards is marginal. This does relate to the tripod/no tripod issue , but I'm convinced that I've got away with things using a Mamiya RF and a small bag that would have attracted a lot of negative arttention with a bigger camera. </li>

<li>Its certainly lighter for carrying about all day (though the Bronica is no beast and the difference might be less than you'd think if you choose equivalent focal length lenses. </li>

<li>For a lot of people the rangefinder focus is quicker for use on the street.</li>

</ul>

<p>Fact is that I have plenty of photographs with each of these that I couldn't expect to get with the other. If you got the most recent SQ-Ai generation of bronica then the systems are about the same age. Neither has a meter worth anything - I chose to use a handheld spotmeter with both cameras but then I was using slide film. </p>

<p>In reality you have to understand the differences in the context of how you'd expect to use a camera and decide which set of advantages is more relevent. </p>

[sfcole]

<p>You need to say which particular Bronica--there is a difference between older and later lenses. From what I've seen, the last generation of lenses are equal to the Hasselblad, but the older designs are not. <br>

If you take photos of architecture, the lenses of the Mamiya have very little distortion. The Mamiya will take both 120/220 film (still available in color) and you can easily stick a flash on top. Focusing is faster than my Hasselblad with the latest (accu matte D) screen, especially in low light. You'll never have light leaks in the backs, though you might in the bellows. Finally, the Mamiya is getting less repairable.<br>

Also, I'd resist the urge to buy which is more cool.</p>

[russ_britt3]

<p>Kevin you missed completely, but thanks for the thought......</p>

[henryp]

<blockquote>

<p>Lenses provided for the Mamiya 6 & 7 rangefinders are legendary...second to none, and lenses for the Bronicas are also highly regarded.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>When I was shooting full time I used Bronica's ETRS system for weddings. They guy I routinely shot for was a dedicated Hasselblad user. In a decade or more he (and our clients) never had anything but praise for the image quality the Bronica lenses produced.</p>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong></p>

 

[sfcole]

<p>Henry,<br>

That may be true, but there is a substantial difference in contras,t ability to fight flare, and performance wide-open between the older Nikkors made for Bronica and modern lenses. <br>

Scott</p>

[jeff_livacich]

<p>It sounds like the Bronica might be a focal-plane shutter type like an EC or S series, based on the "vintage cool" aspect you mentioned.<br /> <br /> With the newer SQ series the Speed Grip will make it handle more like a 35mm SLR.</p>

<p>If you get the Mamiya and decide it's not for you, you can sell it and get a Bronica and several lenses.</p>

[jpthurston]

<p>Who cares about vintage cool factor except if you worry about what people think about you and your (functioning?) camera instead of the quality of your images and the ease with which you produced them.<br>

Shoot with equipment that works for your style of shooting (no pun intended about the rifle) firstly.<br>

The Mamiya 6 is an awesome camera considering its ease of use like a 35mmRF yet huge negs, it comes with great lenses and is a turnkey deal.<br>

Forget the Bronica...its a lousy Hasselbald knockoff. Look at KEH prices to give you relative desirability by virtue of prices for both.</p>

[friedemann_pistorius]

<p>I own both cameras you're talking about, and I second to David Henderson's good comment about the pro's and con's.<br /> The Bronica SQ-Ai (assuming we're talking about the 6x6 camera) is neither lousy, vintage, clunky nor heavy, and definitely not more primitive than the Mamiya 6.<br /> I don't use my MF camera's very often these days, but when it comes to MF, the Bronica sees the most use, mainly for three reasons: 1) I can pre-visualize the final image and depth of field much better on the Bronica screen, 2) I have a wide selection of focal lengths (40, 80, 150, 250 plus 65, 112, 210 and 350 with 1.4x tele converter) 3) I can change film backs (slide film, color and b/w negative films).<br /> Shooting from a tripod and using mirror lock up, I get the sharpest images I could imagine.<br /> A few months ago, I had several 6x6 images scanned with an Imacon/Hasselblad X1 scanner at max resolution (made with both the Bronica and a Hasselblad 503CW and a variety of focal lengths), only to find out that I couldn't tell which image was made with the Bronica or the Hasselblad.</p>

<p> </p>

[jeff_livacich]

<p>Thurston-<br /> You help no one by characterizing the Bronica the way you did. Bronicas were very successful for many decades, which would not have happened if they were lousy. The focal-plane shutter Bronicas were a more successful design than the original Hasselblad focal-plane shutter cameras.</p>

<p>None of them were knock-offs, being significantly different in design.</p>

<p>The Hasselblad 500 series cameras are dirt cheap now, just as the Bronica SQ series cameras are, and don't cost much more. The lenses are more, but they are the renowned Zeiss after all.</p>

<p>Hasselblads, while wonderful machines, also are easier to mess up with, for instance easy to jam by not following sequence in mounting a lens. The SQ's are much better in that regard. I think most people would benefit by starting with a Bronica to see if that type of camera is for them before moving, if they decide they want to, to a Hasselblad. Just my opinion.</p>

<p>Lots of people have preferences and/or prejudices regarding equipment. They are often from ignorance, as your statement clearly is. Giving advice based solely on those preferences or prejudices, especially with unwarranted trashing of an entire marque, is not in any way helpful to someone trying to make a good choice.</p>

[kparratt]

<p>Russ B.:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Kevin you missed completely,</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You mean I was off-target? ;-) .. Well, I was just being silly and flippant anyway. Actually forcing myself to hang on to a shred of humour wherever I can find it. I'm in Norway at the moment. This is completely off-topic ( sorry A.D. Isaac ) .. but yesterday I actually signed an online petition to invoke the death penalty for the Neo Nazi who blew away so many good young people here on Friday. And whilst I make light of references to the rifle, were they to call for volunteers to form a firing squad, pacifist me would be first up the mark. (Never thought I'd hear myself say that.) During military training many moons ago, I used to be a crack shot with a WWII British, Lee Enfield .303" service rifle. And that guy is one target I would certainly not miss.<br /> With apologies, the moderators can delete this if preferred. I wish it were as simple to 'delete' a terrorist.<br /> <br /> CAMERAS - Because I like working with a Leica M3 for fast, spontaneous shooting, I am keen to try my hand with a medium format rangefinder for street photography, and have been considering the Mamiya 6/7 cameras, as well as the Fuji rangefinders. I sold a 6x6 Bronica back in 1989, and put the proceeds on a Hasselblad, and I have not looked back since. To be fair, it was an S2A, which is a tin can compared with the later Bronicas. But for the entire range of applications I need a camera for, ranging from Landscape, macro, copy work, to portraits with 150 and 250 mm Lenses, the modular 6x6 camera with interchangeable magazines is invaluable. .. not to mention the bellows and a whole array of accessories.<br /> <br /> However, if the Mamiya on offer is as good as you say, it would be very nice to have.</p>

[zack_zoll]

<p>Jeff, I've owned my Hassy for a couple years now, and never once jammed the shutter, camera, or anything else. It's a 500C/M, which is the lowest-tech of the "modern" Hassys. The lens and shutter need to be cocked at all times. However, not cocking the camera means that the viewfinder is black. Also, my lenses are extremely diffcult to remove when uncocked. I'm sure I could, but I'd need to really crank on them.<br /><br />I'm sure this problem exists, but it's nowhere near common enough that it should be one of the main reasons for camera selection.</p>

[a.d._isaac]

<p>Russ - I have way more firearms than I need, so don't fear, I will still be quite okay in the rifle department.</p>

[richardsperry]

I haven't owned a rangefinder yet.

 

I've owned a couple Bronicas though.

 

I've looked at the Mamiya 7s, they might be worth $2500 with three lenses. But the 6 looks like a steal for the camera

seller, to me.

[sfcole]

<p>Richard,<br>

That's the current market. KEH sells 6 bodies now for over $1500, so another $1000 for the 3 lenses is pretty reasonable, especially since the 50 generally goes for about $900 by itself.</p>

[jeff_livacich]

<p>Zack-<br>

Thanks for that.<br>

The jamming issue is small for anyone who is reasonably careful. My point was that for a beginner, at least some beginners, Hasselblads are less forgiving of careless errors. In turn, that point was to illustrate a positive, in my opinion superior, attribute of Bronicas to show that it's not all one way or the other, and that consideration should be given to the range of attributes each has. For example, some might prefer the completely mechanical nature of the Hasselblad, while someone else might prefer the electronic shutter speed control and extended slow speed range of the Bronica SQ series.</p>

<p>I have no issue with a beginner buying Hasselblad--only with the unfair statement to which I responded.<br>

I do think that the Bronica can be a great introduction to medium format for a fair amount less (because of lens cost) than Hasselblad.</p>

[zack_zoll]

<p>Jeff, the problems you're describing (jamming due to carelessness) are not Hasselblad's persay, but can be had on any camera with interchangable lenses and a leaf shutter. In fact, the only jamming issues I've ever had (due to misuse and not malfunction) was with a Mamiya C330f, which I had very briefly before buying the Hasselblad.</p>

<p>On the Mamiya the camera and lens both needed to be cocked or uncocked; it didn't matter which, as long as they matched. Unlike the Hassy, there was no visual or mechanical indication that this was the case; if the lever on the lens was down, it was uncocked. Up, it was cocked. The camera itself has (as I recall) no indicator at all, which makes it easy to jam. And unlike the Hassy, you can't fix it with a screwdriver; you need to open and close the back, which requires advancing through several frames of now-wasted film and screwing up your frame counter.</p>

<p>Oddly enough, this wasn't why I got rid of the Mamiya. It was because the thing was so big and heavy that I figured I may as well own the Hassy, so I bought one :) That said, I did like the images more than any other TLR I've used, if only because I like slight tele shots, and I can't afford a good-condition Rollei Tele.</p>

<p>Bronicas ARE less prone to jamming, but the fact is that if you manhandle a Hassy enough to jam it often, then you're obviously treating your equipment with such carelessness that you're going to get awful photos no matter what gear you're using.</p>

[jim_peterson2]

<p>Predictably this thread has gotten off topic; but in all fairness we can't give much advice without knowing which Bronica the OP is talking about. The newer leaf shutter models can be every bit as easy to use as a rangefinder if you have a speed grip and AE prism finder. But then there really isn't any retro-factor to speak of. If it is one of the focal plane shutter models then it is likely to be a very different shooting experience; WLF, manual exposure, cranking to advance film... very different indeed from a rangefinder. </p>

[david_smith35]

<p>"Forget the Bronica...its a lousy Hasselbald knockoff".<br />What a stupid ignorant comment to make about a perfectly decent camera.</p>