richard_john_edwards Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 <p>John<br> Great post of the link to that british experiment, I think it is great that the police were well informed of what the law was and treated the photographers with Dignity and respect. Security sometimes think they are above the law!<br> I wish i had seen this before i was told i could not photograph in a public space a few years ago.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_john_edwards Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 <p>I wanted to add a further comment here, I think that the Video john linked also demonstrated the importance of knowing ones rights, and not just presuming they know there rights or the law, the photographers carried out the experiment with full knowledge of their rights, the security firms rejected this because they did not know the laws and were merely following direction by management or asuming a position they thought to be the law.<br> This post has prompted me to do a little research on what are the rights of Photographers in Australia, I trusted this link because it references law case studies, I hope this link is helpfull to Aussie photographers and hope it will prompt others to seek out and have a clear understanding of what their rights are in their own countries. The more informed we are the better we can go about our buisness of photography and mitigate confrontation.<br> <a href="http://www.overclockers.com.au/wiki/Photographing_in_a_Public_Place">http://www.overclockers.com.au/wiki/Photographing_in_a_Public_Place</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon_dragon Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 <p>Whenever a cop stops you, unless you are a "dangerous felon" he has the advantage. He has the law enforcement powers and the gun. So it's easy to be intimidated (I know I am). And a lot of cops know that and seem to revel in it. The only mistake this cop made in my eyes is not explaining why you were stopped. Had he explained, he might have shown that he was in fact being reasonable. The fact that he didn't explain implies to me that perhaps he was NOT being reasonable and he didn't have a good explanation. If he routinely stops photographers for no reason other than they have a camera, I'd say that is wrong. But if he stopped you because he had some report of someone matching your description running from a bank job that might be another issue. The camera might just have been secondary. We'll never know.</p> <p>My own experience was getting hassled by a "railroad cop" who gave me quite a hard time because I was standing on the white rocks around the tracks at an intersection taking a picture. There was, of course no sign or any reason to believe I shouldn't have been doing this. There was no train coming. He threatened me with jail and was having a grand old time abusing his power. The downside of that kind of experience is that the next time a cop approaches me, I'll be thinking of that previous experience. Doesn't make me feel supportive of the police. Maybe that's wrong, but it's natural I think. </p> <p>I think it's important for cops to recognize the effect they have on someone when they approach them and interact. Not only because it will be easier for us civilians, but because the police need the support of the local population to do their job well. When they don't have it, they don't get bonds passed to pay for police raises. Or worse they're forced to go into some neighborhoods like an invading army in armored vehicles to avoid ending up in a firefight they can't win. When the police see the situation as us vs. them, and when they think nothing of abusing the population for a little light entertainment, I think that's going to end up being as bad for them as it is for us in the long run.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric merrill Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 <p>I don't recall ever having a bad incident with the police. Most recently, I had pulled off a gravel road early one morning taking photos of some deer. A cop that was cruising by stopped, so I rolled down my window. He asked what I was up to. I pointed out the deer. He could see my big lens. He smiled, wished me luck, and went on his way.</p> <p>As for the lady in the video, if she's going to stand around and assert her alleged rights, she deserves to go to jail. What I heard was the officer telling her several times to back away. She didn't. Seems like a reasonable request/order, followed by an unreasonable attempt to stand ground.</p> <p>Eric</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indraneel Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 <blockquote> <p>My own experience was getting hassled by a "railroad cop"</p> </blockquote> <p>I wasn't hassled much when it happened to me. The train (and the cars at the intersection) stopped and patiently waited for my model and me (and all my gear) to get off the tracks. Soon two men from the nearby station hopped over to inform me that the cops were on their way and I should really be at a 20 foot distance from the tracks, or preferably disappear. We packed up and ran... we were both kinda fizzled out. But I can see what might have happened had I actually stayed long enough to meet the cops...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve m smith Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 <blockquote> <p> if she's going to stand around and assert her alleged rights, she deserves to go to jail</p> </blockquote> <p>That's a bit extreme.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studio460 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 <p>Well, since this seems like a pretty free-form thread, allow me to tell a slightly off-topic cop story . . .</p> <p>I was driving home from work one day, southbound on the 110 freeway through downtown L.A., and noticed an LAPD cruiser on my tail. I thought it was odd, since it's the CHP that gives you tickets on freeways in California, not city police. He followed me all the way to the 105 as I exited near LAX (about 15 miles). Finally, once off the freeway, he turned on his lights (it was still daylight). I pulled over and lowered my window . . .</p> <p>LAPD: "What kind of plates are those?"<br /> Me: "They're press plates, issued by the DMV."<br /> LAPD: "Oh."<br /> Me: "Don't you guys know what these are?"<br /> LAPD: "Well, no . . . they don't come up in our computers . . . umm, have I upset or angered you in anyway?"<br /> Me: "No, not at all." (I wasn't upset in the least, just surprised and worried that I was getting a ticket.)<br /> LAPD: "Well, if you have any kind of complaint, or if you have any questions, you can call the number on this card, and I apologize if I've inconvenienced you in any way (he hands me his LAPD business card)."<br /> Me: "Oh, no problem--don't worry about it!"</p> <p>Since he was being so apologetic, I started asking him about his police radio, his data terminal, and other geek stuff about his car. He then proceeded to proudly show me all the cop doo-dads in the cruiser, and explained how it all worked and everything. We stood there and talked for about 15 more minutes.</p> <p>Okay, just one more . . . I was taking pictures of airplanes at LAX with a Nikkor 80-400mm lens on a monopod when an Airport Police officer walks up to me:<br> <br />Airport Police: "Excuse me sir, can I ask what you're shooting?"<br /> Me: "Oh, I'm just shooting some pictures for myself, you know, 'art.'"<br /> Airport Police: "Well, whenever people see someone taking pictures around here with a big lens, they always call us to check it out. It's perfectly legal to take pictures here."<br /> Me: "Thanks, officer!"</p> <p>As I mentioned in the other thread, there have been a few notable exceptions to LAPD's typically professional treatment of the media, but now that I think of it, I seem to recall quite a number of "happy" cop stories.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studio460 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 <p>Michael said:</p> <blockquote> <p>What struck me the most about this little incident was what appeared to be a complete change of manner and attitude on his part after he saw my business card.</p> </blockquote> <p>Yes, he was likely immediately disarmed by your clear, professional representation of yourself (both your behavior and your card fit his expectations of someone who actually is a "photographer"). He would've likely been nearly as disarmed by a calm, truthful explanation of your actions, and a "professional" demeanor, though perhaps, not as quickly.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studio460 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 <p>I said:</p> <blockquote> <p>Michael said:</p> </blockquote> <p>That should read, "Steve said:" (the OP). I think I got mixed up with the other thread.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_south Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 <p>It all seems very innocent except for the part where he asks for identification. Were you driving at the time? Why does he need to see your license?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric merrill Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 <p>Steve:</p> <blockquote> <p>That's a bit extreme.</p> </blockquote> <p>Maybe. Maybe not. I've never been a cop. I can imagine that if you're already dealing with one unknown person in front of you, the very last thing you want is another unknown behind you, especially at close range. And one who refuses to back away.</p> <p>If somebody with a gun who is already dealing with one unruly person makes a reasonable request for me to back away, I would. I would think any sane person would.</p> <p>Eric</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinangus Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 <p>One of my "essay" ideas is the lowly institutuion known as the Canadian "Chip Truck"...or "Fry Wagon". They come in all different shapes, sizes and colours and are a bit of cultural icon. So when I see one, I capture it for future use.</p> <p>Yesterday, I happened upon a bright orange truck with a customer at the side window. - Perfect! So I fire off two shots (camera is always in the passenger seat). I then see the woman customer making a fuss at my camera and she takes my plate number. Seeing as I had nothing to hide or be ashamed of, I approached and handed her my card. She took it and about two hours later I get a call from the local police constable.</p> <p>The conversation started out civil and he just wanted "my side of the story". I explained that she was in public, her face was not even in the shot and I had no intent to use the photo for commercial use. The cop then asked me to email him some of my "other" chip truck pics because he wanted to see if I was lying! I agreed but was insulted. I then asked him what was the problem and he said "if you are travelling around photographing chip trucks, thats one thing...but we can't have you randomly taking pictures of women". This astounded me because either, I was unaware of the law that prohibits photographing humans with internal plumbing...or he was not clear on the law.</p> <p>I asked him, well what if thats what I WAS doing...to get him to elaborate on what is legal and what is not...and his response was a cynical..."are you changing your story now"?</p> <p>Well, I saw this conversation going nowhere constructive fast so I clarified, let the call end and sent him some of my pictures. I have not heard back.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinangus Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 <p><em>"If its viewable to the public, I see nothing wrong with taking a picture of it."</em><br> - Superintendent Dave Pickford, Windsor Police Service</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photo5 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 <p>I was shooting photos a few years ago at the ferry dock in Seattle. A state patrol officer approached me from behind while I was taking a photo of the waterfront. He said "Excuse me" and I thought he was some nut or homeless person or something (I didn't see them so I didn't know who was talking to me, and there are a lot of homeless around the waterfront area in Seattle), so I didn't turn around and kept shooting. He said "Excuse me" again and I turned around and he was standing there with two lower level state patrol behind him. He asked to see my ID and I gave it to him, and when he realized I was just a guy shooting photos he was nicer. But he did make a comment "You made the ferry captain very nervous when you took a photo of his ferry" which was bizarre to me, but I let it slide. Sometimes they want to get a rise out of you, to test you to see if you're a nut or not. Standard practice, the border patrol do it every time. Try to catch you off guard. We can be smarter than them and just stay cool and they will go away. He was interested in my camera after he figured out I was a normal person just shooting photos. I showed it to him, it was new then, and told him I was very happy with it. He went away without incident.</p> <p>Every time I am approached I try to be a normal person, and be polite. I was told once by some plain clothes security guy at the airport that I couldn't stay there unless I had a ticket to fly somewhere. That was bulls&*$ and I knew it but I let it slide and stayed calm.</p> <p>I think anyone who wants trouble will find it. Anyone who wants to be cool, will be cool. So be cool and all will be cool too.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indraneel Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 <blockquote> <p>Standard practice, the border patrol do it every time.</p> </blockquote> <p>Since we're not letting anyone through..... One 4th July weekend, returning from White Sands National Park, Border patrol asked me (while waiting with hands on hips for me to dig through the trunk of my car, filled with camping gear, for my passport):<br /> Officer:<em> Where are you coming from?</em><br /> Me: White Sands National Park<br /> Officer:<em> Why did you go there?</em><br> <em></em>Me, I mumbled something about camping and taking pictures<br /> .... that took a while to recover from...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studio460 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 <p>Although my interactions with police have always been amicable, those stories are a bit more troubling. Seems like a bit of first- and fourth-amendment rights being frayed.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studio460 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 <p>Okay, just two more . . .</p> <p>Again, I was at LAX taking pictures, this time with a short lens, near the international terminal, and out come two fully-loaded SWAT team officers. I immediately swung around and snapped off two shots as they passed by me.</p> <p>SWAT: "Hey! Why are you taking our pictures?"<br /> Me: "You guys look cool."<br /> SWAT: "Well, ask us first next time."<br /> Me: "Okay."</p> <p>I then continued snapping away as they loaded their trunk with their weapons and SWAT gear.</p> <p>Just a few weeks ago, I had to cover a large news event for TV. I also brought my Nikon D7000 with an 18-55mm and a 180mm f/2.8 to take some crowd shots. A ton of LAPD shows up for the arrival of the royal couple in downtown Los Angeles that day. I walk over with just my stilll camera and approach a couple of officers:</p> <p>LAPD: "Hey! Do you want to take our picture?"<br /> Me: "Sure!"</p> <p>I snapped off a half-dozen frames as they tried to look more "official" for the shot. I'm sure the bangle of media credentials I had to wear that day didn't hurt.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin_omura Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 <p>Probably depends a lot on the police officer. For the most part up here my dealings have been friendly though our paper is not exactly liked by the police due to the stories we run. </p> <p>Friends in New York can get NYP (aka New York Press/photographer) media plates but many stopped using them because it screams look in my trunk and steal all the nice photo gear I have. Probably a good thing even the cops don't really know what your plates are about in LA. A few years ago we were having our company cars stolen and the trunks emptied and we don't have special plates up here.</p> <p>In terms of the OP, feels to me like a cop doing his job. You might have done something that made him curious and he just figured he'd check you out. He most likely ran your plates as he pulled up to make sure your car wasn't stolen or involved in anything. If so then he already knew who you were and that question about being from the area might have been a test just to make sure you were who you said you were at first. You be surprised how many routine stops turn into something.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_south Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 This is a complex issue and we need to be sensitive to all perspectives. Police and security guards have been trained to question people taking photographs just in case they guy with the camera turns out to be a member of a terror cell. How the police determine this is a mystery to me. I can't imagine someone saying, "Okay, you caught me. I was planning to blow this place up." But I suppose they can check the person's name against a list of suspects. As with intrusive scans at the airport, this is part of the reality of the modern world, and it's not going to change anytime soon. I have to believe, and I mean this in all sincerity, that the police DISLIKE these interactions as much as we do. There can't be much satisfaction in it, but if they DON'T question photographers they probably have to answer to their superiors, or worse, the ever-suspicious public. They're not going to get any recognition for "photographer duty". Plus, when they approach us initially they have no idea what to expect from the interchange. I have been questioned dozens of times. I try to be as courteous, cooperative, and non-threatening as possible. Most of the time I am left alone to continue my planned activities. I have been denied permission to shoot at some locations, but the cops usually suggest another location if I explain my intentions. In the grand scheme of things, there's always something and somewhere else to shoot. My day isn't going to be ruined just because I can't take a photo from Position X. I move to Position Y and get on with my business. For the police this is all a bit more serious. They can be intimidating, but to them we are absolutely terrifying. When they first approach they don't know if we're angry, armed, or prone to violence. Are we a tourist, a pro, or the next Tim McVeigh? They have to be prepared for anything including a brutal physical attack. It's important to make the cop or security person feel comfortable first and discuss the merits of the complaint second. I would rather assure them that I'm not a threat and move along to my next photo (there or elsewhere) than stand around for ten minutes arguing about rights, or worse, be detained for hours. It's a delicate balance, but the important thing is to get some shots, not to insist that we are morally justified in our actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_mann1 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 <p>Dan, and some others in this thread have nailed it with comments like, <em>"...When they first approach they don't know if we're angry, armed, or prone to violence. Are we a tourist, a pro, or the next Tim McVeigh? They have to be prepared for anything including a brutal physical attack..." . </em></p> <p>Just imagine that a major part of your working day consisted of a seemingly endless series of encounters as described in the previous sentence. Realize that as a cop first approaches someone (who could be you), he or she truly doesn't have a clue who you are. For their own safety, they must very quickly try to figure out if you might be a threat, if you are who you say you are or if you are trying to be deceptive in any other way, etc. </p> <p>You may know perfectly well who you are and that your motives and actions are entirely above board, but the cop approaching you doesn't know this. Of course, being on the receiving end of their questions, you might feel a bit put upon that they even stopped you, let alone "question" you. Of course, there are some cops for whom the power has gone to their heads, but don't make the situation worse by immediately assuming this.</p> <p>If you want to get a glimpse into their work, many police departments offer community ride-along programs. I've done it a couple of times in my life and it's a real eye-opener.</p> <p>Tom M</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinangus Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 <p>On an up-note, I recall an event where I was taking exterior shots of an historic local building. Much of it was boarded up and completely fenced off. A local cop approached on his bicycle and started giving me the tourist background of the site. He then asked if I would like to see inside...! I was astounded! I said sure and he wrestled with some keys and padlocks and took me into this mammoth historic structure. He allowed me all the time I needed to take shots and even had a couple stories about urban explorers needing to be rescued from the site.</p> <p>He asked that I keep the details to myself so he wouldn't get into trouble...so I cannot add any of the great pictures to this posting. This was obviously a well rounded and mature policeman who understood the "serve and protect" better than others. I certainly walked away from that experience with a good feeling about local police.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyanatic Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 <blockquote> <p>I have to believe, and I mean this in all sincerity, that the police DISLIKE these interactions as much as we do. There can't be much satisfaction in it, but if they DON'T question photographers they probably have to answer to their superiors, or worse, the ever-suspicious public. Plus, when they approach us initially they have no idea what to expect from the interchange.<br> I have been questioned dozens of times. I try to be as courteous, cooperative, and non-threatening as possible. <br> ...to them we are absolutely terrifying. When they first approach they don't know if we're angry, armed, or prone to violence. Are we a tourist, a pro, or the next Tim McVeigh? They have to be prepared for anything including a brutal physical attack. It's important to make the cop or security person feel comfortable first and discuss the merits of the complaint second. I would rather assure them that I'm not a threat and move along to my next photo (there or elsewhere) than stand around for ten minutes arguing about rights, or worse, be detained for hours. It's a delicate balance, but the important thing is to get some shots, not to insist that we are morally justified in our actions.</p> </blockquote> <p>Dan -- Great points. With all the side tangents, links to other events, comments that may refer to other events and which may or may not be sarcastic, etc., I take two main points away from this thread:</p> <p>1.) Basically what you said in your post. Essentially, mindfulness (empathy, understanding) of law enforcement concerns and responsibilities in such situations. "If I DON'T check this person out and something bad happens, it's not only my job, but possibly the lives of innocent people."</p> <p>2.) For those who wish to continue photographing in situations in which they have the legal right to do so, but in which there is the possibility of being stopped and questioned, be as prepared as possible. In conjunction with #1 above, this could take many forms: business card, ID badge, a copy of "Photographer's rights", a preprinted statement of purpose or project, preprinted phone numbers for the office of a local DA or District Court judge, etc. Anything which serves the dual purpose of a.) easing the concerns of law enforcement and, b.) establishing your awareness of your legal rights.</p> <p>Martin Angus -- Great story about the cop who actually gave you a tour of that building. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_service Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 <p>I have a visceral dislike of cops abusing their authority, however in similar situations I have had only positive experiences.<br> One case: I was shooting in San Francisco's North Beach at dusk for the neon lights, etc. and found myself in front of Showgirls on Broadway, shooting reflections off a classic car they had parked in front. The club's barker/doorman came over and gave me a real hard time, wasn't allowed to be there and giving me all kinds of verbal abuse. I tossed it right back at him. Pretty quick a cop rolls up and after listening to both sides of the story, informs me that what I am doing is perfectly legal and drives off. After a few choice comments to the doorjerk, I continued what I was doing and moved on. Later I realized that what they were really concerned about was someone with a camera hanging about the front door. It inhibits the clientele.<br> Another great place for urban shooting at dusk is the Embarcadero Center. It is private property and they don't allow unauthorized shooting in there. The neon, Christmas lights and reflections there are especially nice. I've been kicked out of there several times. No problem. I found that they are especially sensitive to images of storefront windows (I have no interest).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studio460 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 <p>Well, happily, it seems for the most part, that the majority of law enforement is aware of our rights as photographers. It also seems that often it's the general public which is full of fear, suspicion, and mistrust.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmitchell Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 <blockquote> <p>Police and security guards have been trained to question people taking photographs just in case they guy with the camera turns out to be a member of a terror cell. How the police determine this is a mystery to me. I can't imagine someone saying, "Okay, you caught me. I was planning to blow this place up."</p> </blockquote> <p>Exactly. If they guy is a member of a terror cell, will he tell the cops or security people? This "security" tactic sounds about as effective as patting down 95 year old women in diapers at the airport. I have yet to hear about a terror plot busted by stopping someone from photographing on the street. They should be instead spending their time looking for unattended packages, trucks parked with no drivers and such. If I were a real terrorist, I'd be snapping pictures with my cell phone and no one would bat an eye at it but put a lens on it an all of a sudden you're suspect. This reasoning makes no sense to me.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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