tolik_p. Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Hi all, I want to get your thoughts on this situation that happened with me. Heres the background story: So I went to my friends wedding as guest this last weekend and naturally I brought my 5dmII and a 24-70 to snap some pictures of the wedding party (mostly all are my friends as well) and to take generic pictures with other guests, my wife and such. The ceremony as well as the reception was at the same location, so when we arrived; the wedding party was still not there (they were taking pictures somewhere with the hired photographer). So while waiting for the wedding couple to arrive, I went ahead and took some images of the reception site and the ceremony spot. I was not alone, there was maybe 20 other guest wondering around and taking pictures of everything there (parents of the wedding party were doing the something as us) After a few dozen shots, I went and joined my wife behind the pews at the church. Wedding started, and as I guest I stayed seated through out the entire ceremony, only took some shoots from my seat (no flash from me the entire wedding). During the reception I took mire shots of friends and of cake cutting (along with a dozen of other guests). I tried to stay as clear from the hired photographer as possible at all times. (I know it gets annoying when guests follow the main photographer) So throughout the 6-hour wedding I snapped around 200 images. Here's where my story headed: About 5 days after the wedding i got a chance to look at the pictures i took. I took about a dozen of the images, passed them through LR, put a nice little border on them and posted them on Facebook. The images were up to my standard of quality. I tagged the groom and bride and mentioned on the pictures that I was a guest at my friends wedding and snapped those images. A lot of people liked and commented on the images. At that time I put out more pictures of the wedding on FB then the hired photographer. THEN, last evening one of my friends and I met up for dinner and he confronted me and accused me of not following "Photographers etiquette". He said that since my photographs are not of a typical guest, and are of higher quality; that I should have waited UNTIL the hired photographer posted all his images on FB. So here's where I stand: I was a guest, never acted as a photographer, never interfered, never used a flash. Didn't ever act as a second photographer. I feel as I regular guest of the wedding that I have all the rights to post some images on FB. It was almost a week after the wedding when I posted the images. The main photographer should of picked some of his best and showed it off on his FB page. (He only posted one image saying more coming soon) This is the age of technology, why should I wait for who knows how long to post my pictures that I just shot for my enjoyment. No images are used for advertisement, and were posted on a personal FB page. What do you guys think? Did I do anything wrong? Was it okay that I posted the images as a guest before the photographer did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvy Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>I think you should ignore your friend's criticism. Unless the bride and groom would object to your postings which I can't imagine them doing, who cares. If you are showing up the hired guy, so be it. It is a chance for him to improve his craft.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <blockquote> <p>I was a guest, never acted as a photographer, never interfered, never used a flash. Didn't ever act as a second photographer. I feel as I regular guest of the wedding... ...No images are used for advertisement, and were posted on a personal FB page.</p> </blockquote> <p>Considering the above, if its true, its a no brainer. Claiming someone shouldn't show anyone such pictures because they happen to be good at photography is ridiculous.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolik_p. Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 John, that's hat I said, but then my friend was like " there's etiquette that you aret following" and I'm the only one that thinks that way. I believe that I my snap shots from the isle are as good as the pro Photographers then I think the hired photographer should try harder? Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>This isn't a matter of right or wrong, and isn't even a matter of 'having rights'. This falls under the category of 'professional courtesy' and/or social etiquette, both of which are quickly disappearing in this Facebook world.</p> <p>If you acted only as a guest, and did not try to interfere or compete with the professional photographer in any way, posting your images on Facebook is perfectly fine, unless you claimed to be the professional photographer, or it is implied in some way that you were. If you want to become a wedding photographer (for profit), then the line is blurred somewhat, because the implication that you were there in a professional capacity is heightened, even without your saying so one way or the other.</p> <p>I see nothing wrong with what you did, however, your expectations about the professional's posting on his blog/FB page immediately are a bit severe. Most professionals shoot RAW images, which take time to process (we are talking hundreds, even over a thousand images here). He or she may be backlogged as well.</p> <p>I personally don't care to post any images on Facebook, let alone try to beat everyone to the punch. So I would not care that x multitude of guests posted images from weddings I've shot, the same day, next day, or whatever...unless you claimed to be the professional, were trying to launch a wedding photography business using your images, or sold your images to weddng blogs, etc., claiming to be the pro. Then I'd be concerned.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolik_p. Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 Nadine, At no time I referred myself as the professional photographer. I am an acquaintance of the hired photographer, and good 2/3 of the wedding guests knew who the main photographer is (as friends or other). I do shoot for profit at times as well as design invites and other things for people. But this post on FB was purely recreational and personal on my personal blog with very limited amount of people that could see the images. I know of a lot of good Photographers that pick a dozen or so images the night after the wedding and edit them for their FB or blog. And Nadine, I shoot only raw, each file is 25-27mb and if you know your software well, it should not take more than 20 min to select and process a dozen images. (my personal opinion) but everyone works differently. If so, why should I limit myself and have myself wait to post images on FB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>I've done this myself and the B & G approved and liked. There's not much the pro can do about it. I hope the pro has shots that are at least as good or better than yours! Of course, all with the provisio you were not a pain at the wedding and stealing his thunder in which case that would compound the irritation the pro may feel.</p> Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelchadwickphotography Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>I can say that at least in New York City, I have never heard of this particular consideration being necessary. If a pro shoots a wedding as a guest, and are not claiming to be the hired gun for it, then what's the problem?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maury_cohen Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>"Social Media". That about says it all.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricardovaste Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>Personally, a week after the event, I wouldn't be showing any photos if I were the hired photographer. If he's put out a quick snap, maybe one of the favourites, then that sounds fine with me as I would expect 3-5 weeks down the line to have the entire set ready (assuming it was all digital). We're not talking about editing a handful of photos and it taking 20 minutes - we're talking about an entire selection, there is an art to creating a set of images and that does take time and thought and isn't something to rush through if you're being paid for a job. I personally break mine up into different stages so that I have time to reflect, the actual processing alone doesn't take particularly long.</p> <p>However, I seem to be on my own here, I think you've been reasonable but you could have gone a bit further. If you're an enthusiast photog/semi professional/fully professional and you're wondering around with an SLR taking shots throughout the day it can often devalue the set of images for the couple at the end of the day. I'm not saying you don't have the right to take any photos, I'm saying "Did you speak to the photographer before the event or at the beginning?" "Did you ask the bride & groom in advance what the situation was with guests photographing during the day?". Simple things, but if I were photographing an event and somebody with a professional grade camera was wondering around taking similar photos and displaying them before me then yes, if I put myself in that situation, I would consider it a little rude. "professional courtesy' and/or social etiquette" may be one way of putting it.</p> <p>Now, I don't want to sound unreasonble. It sounds like you've been fair and considerate in general, I just think you could have done a little more. But remember, only one person approached you, this probably just startled you like it would anyone, you'll live another day! You'll be fine, I wouldn't dwell on it anymore.</p> <p>That's just my personal opinion of course.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolik_p. Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 <blockquote> <p>But this post on FB was purely recreational and personal on my personal blog with very limited amount of people that could see the images.</p> </blockquote> <p>I meant to say my personal Facebook page.<br> Robin:</p> <blockquote> <p> There's not much the pro can do about it</p> </blockquote> <p>That what I said in my debate, he came back at me saying that it's not about what they can do, it's all about the etiquette and that I am lowering the photographer by posting my images. He also said, that if I post my pictures first, then the paid photographers images are now put at a scale, and should be at least as good or better than mine. Which is not right in his opinion... But now does that mean I have to lower my quality of pictures just so someone that got paid to do the job has a better change of having good images? <br> I mean the paid photographer takes normal pictures, he is not bad. We just started talking in general at that point, as we had 3 wedding in 3 weeks of our close friends and i've posted images from each wedding. Bride and groom from each wedding loved my pictures and even thanked me for posting snaps so fast that can share until the pro photographer gives them his pictures.<br> I dont see that I am doing anything wrong, but still; last nights argument got to me :) </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolik_p. Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>Richard:</p> <blockquote> <p>Did you speak to the photographer before the event or at the beginning?" "Did you ask the bride & groom in advance what the situation was with guests photographing during the day?"</p> </blockquote> <p>I know the photographer enough that he contacted me few days before the wedding and asked if I can lend him a 16-35L since his was in service. He knew I was gonna be there and that I would take pictures. <br> Within all the guest we were expected to have about 2-4 semi/pro/hobbyist photographers with pro cameras at the wedding (were kind of in a tight circle) So no one felt awkward about having their camera out. (free practice for all of us) and bride/groom did not mind one bit since they know they will get all those pictures from us (were all friends remember)</p> <blockquote> <p>I just think you could have done a little more.</p> </blockquote> <p>What would that be? I stayed as clear from the photographer as possible and minded my own business and had fun like everyone else.. Why hold for 3-5 weeks as you say and wait till he processes his images? I just want to get this as clear as possible thats all :)</p> <p>Thanks for all replies so far, very helpful.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon_crofts Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>I don't see any problem from the photographer's point of view. I had one wedding where the B&G asked guests not to post images until we had, since it was a destination wedding, and they wanted people back home who hadn't been to get the 'full impact' at one go rather than odd pictures coming out in bits and pieces. But there were on 14-odd guests, so that was easy for them to achieve.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejchem101 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>I guess I've taken things even a little step farther to become less-recognized at weddings as a photographer, and that is I normally just use a small prime and a small body. Instead of showing up with a 70-200 2.8 II IS + 1D II (which I dont want to lug around all day) I will normally just grab my 50 1.8 or 100 F2 and toss it on my 20D. Then I just practice getting all the shots I can, that I expect the pro won't get (odd things going on in the background etc.)</p> <p>It sounds as if you did this already. In terms of posting on Facebook... There is no etiquette in who posts first, but maybe you could have offered your photos to the pro to put as part of the package so that it is all in one place (yours separated by folder or something obviously). Personally, as someone who was recently married, if we could have all the photos taken of our wedding, all in one place, it would be amazing. Oh, we already do have most of them in one place, thank you facebook.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent_peri Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>I think this is an example of one person inventing rules of etiquette that aren't.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>Why would I, as the hired professional, rush home to publicly slap images up on a FaceBook page before the client ever saw them or had a chance to express an opinion of what they like or don't like?</p> <p>Even putting that aside, I wouldn't want to reveal anything out of context ... the client deserves a professional presentation of their wedding photography, hopefully in person if possible.</p> <p>Personally, I don't care who takes photos at a wedding, or what they use, as long as they don't ruin the images the client paid me to take with distractions or getting in the way. There can be 20 people seriously self-involved in taking photographs at a wedding, but the client paid me to take the official ones, not them. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff_nj Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <blockquote> <p>THEN, last evening one of my friends and I met up for dinner and he confronted me and accused me of not following "Photographers etiquette".</p> </blockquote> <p><br />What is your friend's experience to quote "Photographers Etiquette"?<br> I agree with many others that it is wonderful that you (guest) post some images of the wedding and it is also irrelevant to my business.<br> ps. I wish "Photographer's Etiquette" simply included -Get Out Of My Shots-</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardsnow Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>As a guest you had every right to post your photos wherever you liked.</p> <p>Personally, like Nadine, I don't post photos on Facebook. Part of all of my packages now is a CD/DVD of watermarked screen resolution images for the B&G to post and share wherever they like.</p> <p>@Richard Harris:<br> 3-5 weeks is far too long for a Bride and Groom to wait for their photos these days. I try to have all proofs, processed and ready for the B&G when they get back from their honeymoon. That gives me an average of ten days to do all of my post processing. This is never a problem since I can process an average of 800-1000 images in four hours.</p> <p>RS</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>Well...your new information puts a different slant on things, which only goes to support the idea that this isn't about right or wrong.</p> <p>First, since you know the hired photographer, I think what you did is still fine, but as a professional courtesy (since you are also pro level and shoot for profit at times), I would have put a note on my Facebook listing that I was not the hired photographer, and name the person who was.</p> <p>Second, (again, since you know the hired pro) I might have notified the pro about what I was about to do.</p> <p>Third, since you know the hired pro, you probably know his habits re posting his images on Facebook, so again--I still think your expectations about his getting the images online immediately are somewhat presumptive. If he routinely gets his images up quickly, say within a couple weeks, I would have notified him as above or waited. While the majority of photographers you know might get their images online quickly, some don't. I don't. As others have said, if I post anything, I take the time to reflect on the selection first. I definitely wouldn't just pick a dozen shots, quick process and post, just to stay ahead of everyone else.</p> <p>Now I see why your friend said what he said. The key thing is that you both know the hired pro, and you are pro level, if not weddings. I don't necessarily agree with him that you did anything 'wrong'. Basically what he is talking about is professional courtesy among pro level photographers who know each other.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolik_p. Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>Nadine,<br> The thing is I was not the first to post any of the pictures up from the wedding. After the wedding, the paid photographer posted 1 image on facebook, the next day he posted another. after 5 days he had 4 pictures up. On the 5th day I posted a little over a dozen. But even before the paid photographer posted anything, there were already few pictures from other people of the wedding.</p> <blockquote> <p>Second, (again, since you know the hired pro) I might have notified the pro about what I was about to do.</p> </blockquote> <p>I know the photographer, but I am not "buddy buddy" with him to say what or when Ill be doing things.</p> <blockquote> <p>I would have put a note on my Facebook listing that I was not the hired photographer, and name the person who was.</p> </blockquote> <p>I did write that I was a guest to the wedding and that these are the pictures that i "snapped" on occasion.</p> <blockquote> <p>Personally, like Nadine, I don't post photos on Facebook</p> </blockquote> <p>There are different photographers, and people do things differently. The people I know that do it; they do it as advertisement not as a package deal. They would just post some images and redirect the post to a blog and such. I would not have it in my contract either :)</p> <blockquote> <p>What is your friend's experience to quote "Photographers Etiquette"?</p> </blockquote> <p>Hes a fellow starting to persue photography (that likes to argue a lot) :)</p> <blockquote> <p>Why would I, as the hired professional, rush home to publicly slap images up on a FaceBook page before the client ever saw them or had a chance to express an opinion of what they like or don't like?</p> </blockquote> <p>As I said before, people I know that do this, is purely for advertisement for themselves. Its rarely under contract, and it just brings interest to the client (in my opinion)</p> <blockquote> <p>I think this is an example of one person inventing rules of etiquette that aren't.</p> </blockquote> <p>I like that :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picturesque Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>Tolik--sure, I see your points, but it doesn't change what I last wrote--IMHO. As I said, these things are not black and white. Like Richard, I think what you did was OK--nothing wrong at all, or even impolite, since we are talking about etiquette, but yes, there were a few things you might have done to make things even more 'polite'--again, IMHO.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_harper_the_edge Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>Speaking as a photographer who is involved with about 40+ weddings each year I would not presume to tell you what you could do on facebook or be concerned about it.<br> I expect guests to take pictures and post them and email them, etc and it just has nothing to do with what I produce for the bride, groom and their families.<br> There is some discussion of time frame for a photographer to produce pictures and I've worked along side journalists that need to transmit pictures from an event to make sure they get the scoop, but that's not wedding photography. I see a lot of photographers that are critical of wedding photographers that don't have something the next day or that week or whatever.<br> If you go through the lists of the top wedding photographers in the world I think you will find that most of them are comfortable with having the product ready for the bride in a month or sometimes more because they are taking those images and creating art and beautiful book designs to wow the bride and set themselves apart from the average photographer.<br> In short, facebook is not the place I first want my images to appear for the bride and family and I simply don't care what's posted there by guests. Second, I'm never presumptous enough to judge the quality of wedding photography by the quickness of turnaround. I am interested in how it will stand the test of time.<br> Don Harper</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_harper_the_edge Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <p>Above I answered from a wedding photographer's perspective. Below is a view from the bride's perspective.<br> Just saw this article on Huffington Post about the top 10 DO's and Don'ts for wedding guests.<br> <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/17/wedding-etiquette-the-dos_n_879354.html">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/17/wedding-etiquette-the-dos_n_879354.html</a><br> #10 Don't:::: is posting pictures from the wedding, it says let the bride control how she is seen on facebook,etc.</p> <p>Don Harper</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 <blockquote> <p>What do you guys think?</p> </blockquote> <p>As you have a professional relationship (more than an “acquaintance” relationship) with the Wedding Photographer and also as you are a Professional Shooter yourself, your actions simply lacked Professional Courtesy, yes.</p> <p>A telephone call to the Hired Photographer prior to you posting your photos on Facebook, indicating your intent with a tag to the conversation such as: “is that OK with you Bob?”, would have been sufficient.</p> <p>Without Bob requesting it or you mentioning it to him, a line on you Facebook page, indicating the Hire Professional’s details would have been appropriate.</p> <p>Bob, subsequently telephoning you or sending you an email thanking you for you mentioning him, would have been in order.</p> <p>Bob may not care - or even think along these lines – I don’t know: Professional Courtesy or "Etiquette" if you will, generally, is in decline.</p> <p>WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_ Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 <p>"...and naturally I brought my 5dmII and a 24-70 to snap some pictures..."</p> <p>Hopefully you will never go to your dentist and find out the guy in the lobby bought a few 'used, but clean' drill bits to <strong>naturally</strong> practice his technique on your teeth. Of course, the dentist has to pay his staff (...and the hired photographer has to make certain the bride-and-groom are well-satisfied customers.)</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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