A *real* medium format camera - Am I worthy?

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>Cool. Score one vote for eBay! Now, if we could just do something about the rising prices. </p>

<p>Funny story -- I went to the local film shop just now to pick up some 120 and 35mm rolls, and chatted with the guy who runs it. I told him of my plan to try and parlay an FM2 into a medium-format folder. He just smiled, shook his head and said, "I support you and encourage you, but I have to say I don't understand." We got to talking more, and sure enough, he said, "Bellows cameras have a lot of problems... why don't you just get a Hasselblad or a Mamiya?"</p>

<p>I said I was considering that too, but an RB67 like he used to use in the studio was a little bulky for a diaper bag. Plus, anything would be a step up from the Holga he's been developing all these pictures from. Eventually, he said, "I envy you. You're just out there to experiment and have fun. I've been out of that stage for probably 20 years." We laughed, and I said, "Well, remember, I did say you could have my Lensbaby for those weddings and senior portraits, if you want. I'd take store credit in exchange." He just shook his head and said no, it wouldn't be much good to him, but that he <em>loves</em> using the Hipstamatic app on his iPhone.</p>

<p>So maybe he's not a total goner.</p>

 

[zack_zoll]

<p>Colin, I suspect 'ins' on the Gralfex means insurance. But the KEH one is exactly what I was talking about.</p>

<p>The reason I like it so much is because it's compact (as compared to non-folding cameras), has an excellent lens which is VERY sharp and has excellent contrast considering the age, it is extremely well-built and machined, and surprisingly easy to operate. The movements are nice too, but those are a little difficult to operate with the dark focusing screen. If mine was any idication, it's got to be a pretty bright day, or else you'll be squinting to see it even with a hood.</p>

<p>The reason I like it over the 'vest pocket' folding cameras is because many of those don't operate at the same tolerances, either because of age, cost, or sacrifices to compactness, and I find that they also have worse lenses, unless you get one of the more expensive Zeiss or Schneider lenses. In a nutshell, the Graflex shoots more like my Hasselblad because it's so well put together, while your average inexpensive folder gives images more like a really nice Holga. The vest pocket cameras are still a great step up from Holgas and the images are often very cool (hence wanting my friend's Welta), but they don't yield as much of that medium format crispness that you might get from a Bronica or a Hassy. The look of the Graflex negatives (again, just my own experience) is just much more clean and modern, which makes it a beter choice for all-around work.</p>

<p>And I'd use the new Portra 400 for any of these. It's easily the most forgiving film I've ever used. I've rated it from 100 to 800, all with excellent results. I hear it works well at 1600 too, but I've never tried it. It's too clean-looking to be my favourite film, but I use it every time I'm not sure about my exposure.</p>

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>A ringing endorsement, to be sure. I'll have to wait and see if anybody gets me a folder for Father's Day, and if not I think it's time for me to make a Graflex gift to myself. Everything you described is exactly what I'm looking for... legitimately "good" pictures, not just dreamy ones that only I like. Plus, maybe the Graflex results won't look so strange next to the digital shots in the year-end photo books I make for the grandmas!</p>

<p>Thanks for the film recommendation too. I really hope I can find a 120 back for that KEH camera.</p>

[dave_s]

<p>I came late to this thread, but here's a few comments. I've used a Century Graphic for about 25 years.</p>

<p>(a) I would avoid the camera in the KEH ad-- it has no rangefinder, so you would be guess-focusing. The Graftar lens is a triplet, and not the best lens in the world, but it can be replaced. (The 1962 Century in the pic below is fitted with a more recent 100/5.6 Symmar-S. The camera shows the standard Kalart coupled rangefinder.) </p>

<p>(b) It probably took me 50 rolls of film before I got any good with a Graphic. YMMV, but keep that in mind-- do you want to take photos, or do you want to fight with an old camera? </p>

<p>© Having said that, I get a high proportion of keepers with my Graphic, but that's because I work slowly with it, nearly always from a tripod. It's light, so it's an excellent camera for backpacking. A couple of other guys on photo.net also use '23' Graphics as backpacking cameras.</p>

<p>(d) Look for posts by SG Adams, Dan Fromm, and John Golden, on photo.net. All those guys use little Graphics. Also, browse graflex.org, although it's not as good as it used to be.</p>

<p>(e) If I were you, and I'm not, it would be a dSLR for shooting the kids, Rolleicord for shooting landscapes and arty stuff-- maybe a good user Rolleicord III with a Xenar.</p>

<p><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/10464750-lg.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p> </p>

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>Whoa. Starvy, those pics look fantastic! I can see why you're smitten with your Zeiss folders. Now I'm a little torn... not sure if I should go with a charm-laden folder or a sensible Bronica ETR. If I could find these Nettars and Tessars for the $13-$15 prices you're talking about, though, I wouldn't have to choose! </p>

<p>Thanks, also, for the film recommendations. Apparently my scanner and skills will still limit me, but I can say that even with the Holga I've seen a world of difference between the results I've gotten with my usual Fuji 400 stuff and the Provia 100 and Velvia 50 I got for one "special" trip. I'm thinking maybe every roll should be with the quality stuff.</p>

<p>Wonder if I could get away with ordering an eBay TLR as well... they're all different, you know? Though my wife has a hard time understanding that.</p>

 

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>And Dave, thanks for the straightforward advice. I will indeed keep considering the Rollei, since everything else you said sounded pretty darn intelligent; you're probably right about this too.</p>

<p>I also appreciate the names of some photo.net folks who use the Graflex. I was paging through Zack's work for an idea of the "modern" look he refers to, but I had a hard time determining which shots were done with which cameras.</p>

[bj_larsson]

<p>Colin: I think the key is to figure out what you want the camera for.</p>

<p>On the MF side, I have both a Pentax 645 (which is great) and a Holga. The Holga is light, easy to carry anywhere, anytime, and when I break it I don't really care (I just snapped the entire lens assembly off, and 'gooped' it back on; everything works ;) ). The results are "fun". </p>

<p>The Pentax 645 is one of the more 'carriable' MF systems, it feels like a large SLR in my hands and I don't mind carrying it around. It creates very sharp, high quality images. But if anything I'd call the results 'serious' as opposed to the Holga. An the photos are most definitely not square and have a very different feel. I really like it as well.</p>

<p>Those two are extremely far apart in how / where I'd use them (and I picked up the Pentax for $160 on craigslist so it's not like I spent a fortune on it). I think your MF experience will be so significantly different, that I'd classify the Holga as a LOMO camera first, and a MF camera second.</p>

<p>My advice: Go buy something that appeals to you and try it out. The MF market doesn't seem to be dropping much (if at all) from what I've seen. So if it doesn't appeal, sell what you picked up. Buy what you like, keep what you love.</p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

<p>Bjorn</p>

[zack_zoll]

<p>Colin, my photos are a bad example. They're mostly done with a Hasselblad, and various Nikon DSLRs. There's nothng with the old cameras there. I put that up for some advice for my portfolio I was using to apply to grad school, and haven't updated it since.</p>

<p>Thanks for looking though!</p>

[bob_everding]

<p>Colin, I feel your pain. I was in the same spot almost exactly. However, my problem is with most if not all MF cameras out there are manual focus. I cannot get it together quick enough when the kids are playing to take descent shots. I have to have something with autofocus. For me that has been either a Nikon F4 or newer film SLRs or the cheap D60 I have. My Mamiya 645 Pro does good when I either get lucky or have the time to get things focused with kids running around. Since I crop most everything, most of the 6x6 negative (Yashica 124G or D) is not used anyway, so my 645 with winder does not slow me down when I need to be fast (or concentrating on focusing).</p>

<p>As much as I was going to start this off telling you to stick to 35mm, I must say that ANY picture I have taken with any of my medium format cameras outshines any 35mm picture I have taken. The big negative IS the reason to go this way, but you have already figured that out with an amazingly simple, cheap Holga. You have many excellent points to consider here, and I think the best is, try a system.....if you like it or can live with it, keep it, if not, look for something else.</p>

<p>Bob E.</p>

[ivette_ocampo]

<p>I'm selling a rolleiflex......is there anyone interested?<br>

<a href="../gc/view-one?classified_ad_id=1301411">http://www.photo.net/gc/view-one?classified_ad_id=1301411</a></p>

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>Thanks for the advice (and sympathy). It's probably true that there's no one *best* solution to the situation, but you're right, Bjorn and Bob. I might as well just try something. I sent an email to Jurgen Kreckel and got a recommendation for a Franka Solida III.</p>

<p>Also got word from my wife that she is NOT about to get me another camera for Father's Day, so looks like it's up to me! Honestly, I'd love to supplement the folder with a TLR, and since Yashicas seem to be up in Rollei price territory nowadays, I imagine I'll just start looking for a Rolleicord III (like Dave suggested) as well. I posted the Nikon FM2 I was going to send to KEH on the classifieds here, but haven't gotten any interested parties so far, so I think I'll just send it in. Between that and the Rebel XT I should be able to get that Rolleicord and maybe an old light meter too.</p>

<p>Then, down the road, I can contemplate upgrading the Franka to a Graflex and the Rollei to a Bronica! It's already exciting, just being able to form that sentence and know what I'm talking about. Thanks again to all of you for sharing your advice.</p>

<p>Using this site is like finding a mini-book on the precise topic I was interested in, published by a team of candid and informed authors, available everywhere for free and with the ongoing potential for extra chapters.</p>

[greg_campbell1]

<p>Mr. Collin! Have fun with your new toys, but please don't get trapped in the gear-dweeb tar pit of endless, pointless, 'upgrades.' Let your photography drive any future purchases! You may find yourself itching to try a different format, or have need for a specific feature that only Camera X can provide. </p>

<p>For now, just go shooting! :)</p>

<p> </p>

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>That's probably the best advice of all, Greg. Thanks. I'll try my best to stay out of the tar pit.</p>

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>Hey there, anyone who's still following this. </p>

<p>A quick update: I got the call from KEH, and the stuff I traded in wasn't in quite the condition I'd initially thought (Peter, you were absolutely right), so I ended up only having about half as much to work with in my budget.</p>

<p>At that price point, it came down to the Bronica and Mamiya 645 systems (Mamiya seemed to have the edge, in that a metered finder was within reach), along with the Mamiya RB67. I went with the RB.</p>

<p>It should be here on Friday, according to FedEx, and I'm now researching YouTube videos on how to use the thing. (Also planning a visit to the local camera shop, where maybe the kindly fellow behind the counter will do an in-person demonstration of how to load the film!)</p>

<p>It came down to price, obviously, but I'm also excited about the 6x7 format. (Weird, too, that all the TLRs I could find were priced way *higher* than the SLRs...) Honestly, though going square has its appeal, the majority of my photo viewing is done on a computer screen or an iPhone (and the iPad I'll eventually get, undoubtedly), so rectangular will make the most of that real estate. I also couldn't get past the appeal of the waist-level finder, and kept finding myself pricing those as accessories for the 645 systems. The RB comes with that standard, it seems. I just really like the idea of "seeing" my picture in ground glass before I snap the shutter. (Zack, I will certainly heed your advice and skip trying to catch my daughter in that frame, reserving the RB for more arty and landscape-y stuff. Dave, you spoke wisely that I should try and segregate cameras for the tasks to which they're suited. Rachelle, you effectively talked me into saving this one and using the Holga, DSLR or the Yashica Electro for my intrepid wanderings.) </p>

<p>Ben and Starvy (and others), your folder recommendations are still much appreciated... and continually considered. Maybe once I get more comfortable working without auto-exposure, I'll graduate to guesstimating focus as well. Besides, it's not like I'll be taking the RB67 on vacations with us... and I've got a birthday coming up. So there's still a "need." And I still want that Franka that Jurgen recommended, pretty badly. I just know how much the purchase of *two* MF cameras in one month would count against me with the wife, and it's better to space these things out. Besides, I'll probably enjoy the RB more if it's solo for at least a little while.</p>

<p>At any rate, it was the advice of Dave and BJ and Bob that rang loudest in my ears as I told the KEH purchasing agent what I'd like to receive in trade: "Do you want to take photos, or do you want to fight with an old camera?"</p>

<p>and</p>

<p>"ANY picture I have taken with any of my medium format cameras outshines any 35mm picture I have taken... try a system.....if you like it or can live with it, keep it, if not, look for something else."</p>

<p>and, of course,</p>

<p>"Go buy something that appeals to you and try it out."</p>

<p>In the end I wasn't up for a faceoff with the Graflex or a folder yet, but I'll try my hand with this 6x7 beast. I'll post pics as soon as I manage to make some.</p>

<p>Thanks again to all for all your help. </p>

<p>Colin</p>

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>Got the first roll back from the RB67. I *love* shooting with this thing. Composing in the viewfinder is genuinely exciting, and I like knowing that the image will line up exactly with whichever set of lines I'm using to frame the image. Rotating Back is a big plus too. Already ordered a strap for it, and I'll keep using my dSLR as a light meter for the time being. This batch seemed pretty well-exposed to me. Thanks again, everybody.</p>

 

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>Got the first roll back from the RB67. I *love* shooting with this thing. Composing in the viewfinder is genuinely exciting, and I like knowing that the image will line up exactly with whichever set of lines I'm using to frame the image. Rotating Back is a big plus too. Already ordered a strap for it, and I'll keep using my dSLR as a light meter for the time being. This batch seemed pretty well-exposed to me. Thanks again, everybody.</p>

<div></div>

[greg_campbell1]

<p>Any more updates? :)</p>

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>Well, Greg, funny you should ask! After about a month with the Mamiya, I've shot six or seven rolls with it, and learned about all the interesting ways you can screw up a picture! Even with such a fine piece of equipment, there's still a plethora of opportunities for mistakes. (Thankfully the interlocks prevent shooting with the darkslide in, or I'd have botched even more frames...)<br>

For instance, on extreme closeups you can somehow miss getting your subject in focus, despite having a clear viewfinder image to show you the optimum placement of the camera:<br>

<p>You can dreadfully underexpose your subject, probably as a result of using an iPhone light meter app instead of the dSLR that worked so well on the first roll:<br>

<p>You can, at least with the 65mm lens, try to shield the lens from sun flare yourself, rather than getting a hood, and find that your blocker made its way into the picture itself:<br>

<p>And with that same 65mm, you can get overexcited about having a relatively wide-angle lens, and take boring shots of large objects just because they suddenly fit in your frame!<br>

<p>Or, best of all, you can actually take a good picture of your wife and kid, then somehow forget to advance the film and snap another exposure of a boring parking garage right over top of it the next day!<br>

<p>That one was the most upsetting, actually. But as you can see, I'm still happily shooting, and have a couple more rolls to get developed (one is E-6, so it will take a little longer), and am really just loving this thing anyway. It's not foolproof, but if it were it wouldn't be so satisfying when you (eventually) get it right.</p><div></div>

[greg_campbell1]

<p>Your Flikr gallery is looking good. Glad to see you're enjoying the beast.</p>

[colin_dullaghan]

<p>Well, Greg, that pretty much makes my day. And rereading this thread just now has been a highlight of the weekend -- so many people were so generous with their insights last summer, and this wisdom has indeed traveled with me as I've been learning more about medium format this year.<br>

I *love* shooting with the Mamiya, even still, and have added a grip, 65mm and 180mm lenses, and an unmetered prism finder. All in UG condition, I believe, but working just fine for my purposes. In fact, as I type this I'm sitting beside a roll of Acros 100 that's drying over the kitchen sink, featuring 10 (okay, 9 -- forgot to release the shutter after I locked up the mirror on the last exposure) pretty decent-looking images from this weekend.<br>

I would say I'm getting the hang of it.<br>

Yesterday afternoon I stopped by the local camera shop (Peace Camera in Raleigh, in case there are any NC locals here on the board. What a great place, right?) and spent a little time ogling a Yashica Mat and a Mamiya C220 they had in the case, but ultimately left empty handed. In the end, I just really like the RB67. And yes, I still occasionally shoot with the Holga. Been experimenting with running 35mm through it and the old Diana clone someone gave me. The sprocket-hole look is interesting. Considering getting a 220 back for the RB, just to use it with all the 35mm rolls I've been finding on closeout at drugstores and such.<br>

Oh, and I even begged a relative into getting me a Polaroid back for the RB for Christmas this year. I just got my second 5-pack of Fuji FP-100 and donated a pack of 3000b to a friend who's been playing with an old Land Camera. He remembers his old Kiev fondly, it turns out, and I'm doing my best to get him back shooting again.<br>

What a rewarding hobby we've got here. So many ways to explore and experiment, and relish the moments that keep sliding by.<br>

Thanks to all for joining in.</p>