Remember Tibet. Folder

[robert_clark]

Excellent and interesting photos. Very glad to hear the political comment - disheartening, but no surprise, to recognise the ethnic backgrounds of those who would be pleased if you supressed it.

 

I think Rob has a point as far as pure documentary goes, but not sure I would concur that catching their look or glance necessarily means they stop what they are doing. Sometimes they are communicating as well as doing - it seems possible to do both at the same time.

[thomas_t]

To Robert Clark,

 

I find your comment ... "Very glad to hear the political comment - disheartening, but no surprise, to recognise the ethnic backgrounds of those who would be pleased if you supressed it" ... quite amusing indeed ...

 

No doubt your keen and intuitive command of ethnic backgrounds would have noted that Tom Tsai and Johnson Cheung are also chinese surnames. I for one applaud the photographer's photographic and political statement. Your generalization of ethnic backgrounds, however, leaves much to be desired. The chinese have no business suppressing anyone, and many chinese as well as americans of chinese descent feel that way, despite our "ethnicity".

 

Respectfully yours :)

[kenny_c.]

Rob, seems that you have started an anti-Chinese campaign here, Is it necessary to call all Chinese Raper? By your own standard, what would you call these English soldiers who invaded Chinese land, including Tibet, in 19-20th century?

[nesrani]

Kenny - I have no problem calling any state that subjugates and wages a genocidal war against a foreign country a rapist, or whatever other phrase seems most appropriate, whichever state that may be. England committed many terrible crimes in the past and is about to be party to yet another, I certainly have no interest in defending it against such accusations which are well known and fully documented. The great famine in Bengal in the early 40's being perhaps the most appalling of such crimes. Maybe I should have said "the State of China" rather than "the Chinese", sorry.

 

Tom, you are making a logical error: Robert and I did not say that all Chinese are against the discussion of the Tibetan issue, simply that the commenters on this forum who are against such discussion are - lo and behold - apparently Chinese.

[kenny_c.]

Ladislav, My mind is not set as what is happend in Tibet. By the same token, then I have reasonable doubt to bebleive what you have said. Base on these photos taken in Tibet (those you have shown) I couldn't relate them and your anti-Chinese Government in Tibet statements. Can you give us more credit about you? What do you make living? Who support you to stay in Tibet? On what purpose? Do you belong any political party or interest group in Tibet? Thanks.

[thomas_t]

Rob:

 

I actually had no problems with your posts originally. You addressed your comments to the 2 individuals who specifically had a problem with the political element. That was perfectly reasonable and fair, in my opinion.

 

However, your latest comment and unsolicited defense that: "Robert and I did not say that all Chinese are against the discussion of the Tibetan issue, simply that the commenters on this forum who are against such discussion are - lo and behold - apparently Chinese," is objectionable.

 

With all due respect, the logical error is yours. If as you've noted, not ALL chinese are against the discussion of the Tibetan issue, then the what is the moral or logical significance -- indeed ANY significance -- of Robert "noting" that the commenters on this forum who are against such discussion are - lo and behold - apparently Chinese????? So what? Some of the commentators who do no object to the discussion are also chinese. So what gem of a finding have you achieved? Does your observation that the 2 objectors are chinese bring anything of consequence to the table, other than that you've discovered anecdotal evidence so often used as a basis for forming stereotypes?

 

In short, if you're not perpetuating a stereotype, what is the point or significance of noting that the 2 objectors were chinese?

 

As I've said, your earlier posts were entirely appropriate in my opinion, as you directed them at the individuals, not an ethnic class. You lastest defense of Robert, on the other hand, shows that I may have been mistaken in giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

Best regards

[thomas_t]

Kenny,

 

I think the rape, destruction and dilution of the Tibetan people by the Communist Chinese government (let's be specific here, as there are all sorts of us "chinese" running around out there with different nationalities and political affiliations), is fairly well documented.

 

Ladislav does not need to justify his photos, they speak for themselves. Check any Amnesty International report or UN human rights abuse report if you wish to see the destructive effects of the Communist Chinese Government in Tibet.

 

Best regards

[robert_clark]

Hello Tom,

 

I lived in China for a year back in 1990 when some of the worst Chinese government atrocities were being commited against Tibetans. At that time, in many discussions with ethnic Chinese from the PRC, Hong Kong and The USA I never came across one who could acknowledge that there was anything wrong with what was going on in the name of the Chinese government. Some, as someone in this thread tried, even alluded to the Chinese liberation of 'backward' and 'cruel' Tibet - the old communist justification.

 

This of course does not prove that all ethnic Chinese share this view, nor, indeed, does it show that all ethnic Chinese would like to supress criticism of China's role. I am glad to hear that you are open to such criticism. However, it is my experience that the only people who do want to supress discussion and criticism of the Chinese role in this imperialistic oppression are, in fact, ethnic Chinese. Once again, on this forum of well off, well educated people, far away from the control of the PRC, the only dissenting voices are of two ethnic Chinese. As I said, it is disappointing, but not surprising.

 

If you want to claim that it shows nothing then we have to agree to differ.

[nesrani]

Well, Tom, if you don't see the significance of it, we will indeed have to let it go.

 

Cheers,

[shinden]

Hello Rob (Appleby), I have pondered your argument about journalistic and documentary approach for a while and I must say I don't quite see your point as far as documentary photography is concerned. I remember many photographs, some from Old Tibet, in which

people pose or face the camera and the pictures don't seem any less documentary for it. As a matter of fact I don't much care whether my work is journalistic or documentary as I don't wish to follow any premeditated pattern. I take a picture when I am moved and I sometimes don't hesitate to ask people to pose if I feel I may get more visual impact from a situation. My point is that if people look at me when photographed, they will look at hundreds of others who happen to look at the photograph. This is one of the magics of photography - the universal participation of eye consciousness. Also I would hesitate to use the word deep in context of photography. Good or bad, yes, but do you feel that C. Bresson's or Koudelka's photographs are deep? They are good and that's more that can be said.

On the other hand I wouldn't hesitate to say shallow to some work, as the many high rated photographs prove.

Still I thank you for your comment. It helped me to reconsider and clarify things for myself. Kind regards, Ladislav

[thomas_t]

Robert:

 

I don't doubt that that your experience has been real and sincere. But just remember that on the island of Taiwan alone, there are literally millions of ethnic Chinese who frequently disagree quite strongly with the Communist PRC. The Taiwanese are also not too fond of PRC's propensity for takeovers of other sovereign territories, having had to sit through repeated threats and "military" exercises every year on its coast, or everytime the US and PRC have a disagreement. Just keep in mind that the sample of ethnic chinese you may have had personal contact with is merely a sample, particularly if it has been in the PRC. There are millions of chinese, in Taiwan or in the US, who are not under the thumb, threat or brainwashing of the PRC and who readily disgree with their tactics. The fact that you've not met a single one is merely bad luck. Buy me a beer and I'll happily show you the contrary, you may have just been hanging with the wrong crowd :)

 

 

Rob:

 

As a kid, I grew up near Coeur D'Alene, ID, where there is a sizeable population of Aryan Nation nuts. They gather every year to stage a parade and harass good folks in general. I've noticed that every single one of these neo-nazis is white. And if I were to take your reasoning to its logical conclusion, I suppose I should find that significant. But frankly, I don't. Whites, I've learned, don't have a monopoly on stupidity. Nor do ethnic Chinese :)

 

By the way, I've been a big fan of your photography and previous random musings on photojournalism.

 

Best wishes to you both :)

[jay__3]

Rob Appleby deals with real issues.Your work is nice photos,Rob does nice photos;he also photographs the soul of the country not just nice.Listen and learn.

[roland_schmid]

Peter - who has to listen, who has to learn, who has to teach?

[kenny_c.]

Tom,

 

The bad human right record is no news for China. What I am in doubt is that "other" charges made by Ladislav (see top of this thread). His photo should speak for itself but again I just challenge his "other" charges made to Chinese(people or government) which has nothing to do with his photo.

[jay__3]

Those with eyes that can see,and ears that listen.

[phill kneen]

I'm with Rob on this one.

[nesrani]

Hi Ladislav, obviously there are many approaches and many things that can work well. Mary Ellen Mark has loads of "to the eyes" pictures, for instance. Actually, it is an American style, whereas the "invisible photographer" style is more European. Personally I believe a mix of the two to be very effective, but I would say the number one reason I trash otherwise promising snaps is having someone looking at the camera in the frame. The important thing is to find the approach you're comfortable with, and your results certainly speak for themselves.

 

Bests

[shinden]

Hello Kenny, I think I owe you an answer concerning your suspicion about my whereabouts in Tibet. Here is the desired information: I went to Tibet on my own, entered the country from Nepal on foot, hitchhiked and trekked in the country for two and a half months, illegally for most of the time, as the Chinese authorities would not issue any travel permits to individual travellers and confine them to the territory of Lhasa. I slept in cheap Tibetan hostels, monasteries and nomad tents. Nobody paid for my trip and I work for no Tibetan organisation, which is rather a shame on my part. Moreover I spent 25 years of my life in a communist country (Czechoslovakia) and with thousands of others never believed for one day the official Czech-Soviet propaganda. If you honestly want to know what's being done to the Tibetans, and you find it hard to believe independent reports of Amnesty International or similar sources, why not ask Tibetans and get first hand information. have met some who spent years in forced labor camps, were tortured in the most atrocious ways. I myself saw Tibetans maltreated by Chinese soldiers in their own country and witnessed an atmosphere of general anxiety almost everywhere. What more can I tell you?

May I in turn ask you to give me your honest opinion on the issue of Tibet. Do you say yes to the occupation of Tibet by the PRC? Do you think it right that Lhasa today has more Chinese than Tibetans, that people cannot exercise freely their religion, that they cannot speak for themselves. Don't tell me China has brought progress and liberation to the people. Nobody asked for it. It destroyed and continues to destroy one of the most unique spiritual traditions in the world. I xpect your honest answer, Kenny. Stay well, Ladislav

[kenny_c.]

Hi Ladislav,

 

What a story! May I call you traveler. What is your daily job? Do you have any connection with the exiled Dalai Lama or any group associated with him? Here is my answers to your questions:<br>

1.Do you say yes to the occupation of Tibet by the PRC?<br>

Ans: Yes, In history Tibet is Chinese land in last 800 years especially when China is strong and it is globaly recognized today. But I have no problem that Tibet become an independent state. <br>

2.Do you think it is right that Lhasa today has more Chinese than Tibetans, that people cannot exercise freely their religion, that they cannot speak for themselves.<br>

Ans: Yes and why not if Tibetans become minority in their own land.

What to worry about? The world is keep on changing than before? As for "people cannot exercise freely their religion, that they cannot speak for themselves". Certainly not but I doubt it is true today (probably not in the Culture revolution period) that "people cannot exercise freely their religion" in Tibet. It is well known there is no "speech freedom" under Chinese communist ruling. What do you expect? <br>Again I am first generation Chinese-American. I have spent last 25 years to work here in US. I have no connection or endorse the Chinese government in general.

[roland_schmid]

Kenny - that's disgusting. You just agreed to an actual genocide.

[msitaraman]

1. " The world is keep on changing than before?"

 

2. "In history Tibet is Chinese land in last 800 years especially when China is strong and it is globaly recognized today."

 

Kenny, please explain. I'm not sure what you mean...

 

Also, what exactly is wrong with being associated with the Dalai Lama, a peaceful individual who backs no armies or terrorists, and who is, after all, universally revered by the Tibetans? Also, why does China (not the Tibetans) make it illegal to possess pictures of the Dalai Lama. What kind of religious freedom is that?

[thomas_t]

Kenny,

 

I'm sorry to say that as a fellow chinese American, I find your position utterly repugnant. I am particularly sorry that your 25 years of working and living in the US has taught you apparently very little about democracy and apparently practically nothing about compassion. If you have not read the Constitution and Bill of Rights recently, please try to do so again. If you have not read it at all, please try reading it carefully just once.

 

If the conditions that the Tibetans are living under do not disturb you, then I encourage you to move to the PRC or territories controlled by the PRC and see if you have the luxury of your "opinions" there. Ironically, you couldn't even participate in this discussion in you were in the PRC.

 

I am certainly not the standard bearer of chinese americans. I just hope members of the forum don't believe you are either.

 

Best regards.

[kenny_c.]

Cool down gentlemen.<br>

I don't believe that people in Tibet are treated worse than the rest of China. Then the fundamental difference, between me and some of you, is that you think Tibet is NOT Chinese land. I have never attempted to convince you anything so please do the same to me. I have expressed what I believe and don't think any more discuss is need in this forum. Life move on in your own way.