Would you decline to shoot this wedding?

[simon_crofts]

<p>About turning the wedding down, it seems to me that honesty is the best policy. If you try to make an excuse then they'll blame you, thinking that you had committed to it then backed out.</p>

<p>If you explain honestly that you felt uncomfortable about being told that you had booked a wedding without being consulted about it, that you didn't commit to the wedding, that they weren't prepared to accept the discounted price that you offered, that they haven't replied to your queries within a reasonable timeframe, and haven't sent you a contract, therefore don't feel you need to bend over backwards to do them a favour, then they may not be happy about that, but ought at least to get the message that you are the one that feels aggrieved. Even if sister in law doesn't get the message, other members of the family ought to.</p>

<p>If you make up some excuse about having some other commitment or whatever, family may get the impression that you backed out after committing yourself.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>John's non-advice is very good - get the SIL on the phone ASAP - and talk to her - find out what is going on...</p>

<p>My business law instructor in college used to say - "There's no feud like a blood feud...." and he's been proven right over and over again. </p>

<p>The risk to you at this point is two fold -<br>

1) you follow your gut and the advice of most on here and walk away - what do you gain? What do you lose? - You gain the freedom from a long trip, for a wedding with a couple that you don't know, who didn't engage you to do their wedding photos. You lose the relationship with your sister-in-law - and perhaps put a wedge between you and your spouse - depending on his relationship with his sister... At best family gatherings will be a bit awkward for a while...</p>

<p> 2) You risk the possibility of being brought to small claims court for the cost of the photographer that they end up getting... As John pointed out - whether you have an agreement or contract or not will and can vary by court and jurisdiction. You roll the dice with some judges - and sometimes you win - other times you lose...</p>

<p>This is not advice - but what I would do....<br>

Call my SIL - tell her that 1) I need the contract signed by her and back - immeadiately - along with the ticket and hotel confirm number... If there is a delay in payment or a problem with the fees - let's talk about that and deal with it... Ask her if the bride and groom (and their family are OKAY with me doing the photography... She may not have even consulted with the bride and groom before offering a photographer (I've had that happen before). If they are not okay with it - then there is an out... use it... If they are okay - come to an agreement with SIL - about a) signed agreement, and b) payment. If SIL doesn't want to sign - I explain to her that I do not do any work without a signed contract.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[picturesque]

<p>Normally, I'd say you need to stick to your guns and get the signed contract or decline the wedding. However, with family involved, everything changes. I agree with Marc Williams. If you want to be able to 'live' with your brother and sister in law from now on, you need to shoot the wedding, even if you don't have the signed contract.</p>

<p>You can still do everything possible to get the signed contract before the wedding, but I would not threaten to walk or decline shooting the wedding. If the signed contract does not appear to be coming, have a talk with your sister in law. Explain your discomfort, repeat how you are not making much of a profit, if any, and nicely remind her that you are doing the wedding for the sake of your relationship with her and your brother. But get on the plane and shoot the wedding, regardless.</p>

<p>I am shooting a wedding on June 4 (I am in Northern California), but let me know where your wedding is. I may be able to help you by providing information or something.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>All correspondence has shown that a contract is conditioned on the existence of a <em>signed </em>contract.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>All we were told was <em>"I emailed the B with my wedding contract that had all the details of what they would get for the price being paid and let her know that I needed to her and her groom to sign right away <strong>so that I could also forward it </strong>to SIL and her boyfriend to sign and get me my required deposit"</em> and "<em>I always sign last and let them know i<strong>t's not a done deal until I have the deposit</strong></em>". Where's all this correspondence showing a "signed contract" is prerequisite to being bound? Merely saying you 'need' it for some purpose other than creating the obligation isn't the same as noticing a party that it is a perquisite for an obligation to be created.</p>

<p>Arguably no contract exists but declaring it as such doesn't make it a sure thing. Especially when the grounds cited in support are factually incorrect as seen here. Also, on another issue, we weren't even told that a deposit is a prerequisite to be bound. Merely that it is required. No date is given so it could be tendered at any time. Like just before the wedding.</p>

<p> </p>

[simon_crofts]

<p>It's not a question of legal risk, there isn't any at this stage. The legal risk starts if the OP agrees to go ahead and shoot the wedding. It's a question of family relationships. And what the OP wants to do.</p>

<p>Shannon is probably in the best position of any of us to judge whether going ahead and shooting the wedding is more likely to do harm to family relations than not shooting it. Family relationships include Shannon's own feelings, it's not just a question of what sister in law thinks. Probably damage has already been done to family relationships just by the fact of Shannon being put in this position. Other members of the family might also be annoyed if they have seen what is going on. Going ahead and shooting the wedding isn't necessarily going to be good for family relationships.</p>

<p>And what if the friend of the sister in law isn't happy with the results for whatever reason, rational or irrational. What if the bride/groom are demanding and unreasonable? Her actions so far aren't very promising. What if the friend wanted some different types of photos from the ones you give her, and tells everyone she's unhappy, or complains or even sues you for some reason? What if sister-in-law thinks that despite all the discounts, you are still overcharging, and feels ripped off? What if you don't forgive your sister-in-law? What if other members of your family see what happened, and blame your sister-in-law for taking advantage of you? None of that will be good for family relationships.</p>

<p>To me, there look like too many risks to family harmony in going ahead. And ultimately: do you want to?</p>

<p>But only Shannon can really assess the dynamics of relations in the situation.</p>

 

[dirtlawyer]

<p>To repeat;<em><strong> get out now! </strong></em><strong></strong>You haven't even gotten to the post production complaint period yet. Even if you are the veritable Rembrandt of photography, you won't even recognize how bad the photos are until you are told by the SIL and the B&G. Not to mentioln the Bride's mother.<br>

This is nothing but a disaster on its way to happening.<br>

My advice comes from many years as a practicing lawyer. When people are extra picky and annoying going into a contract, they are worse when the work is completed.</p>

[spurcell]

<p>Just to clarify, my SIL is the sister of my husband. Their relationship is not stellar and I'm not that close with her or their family. However, I don't want to purposely create a problem. I just am feeling taken advantage of and want to draw the line somewhere. I believe I did more than bend over backwards and they still expect more which is incredibly rude.<br>

I had/have no intentions of making up any stories to back out. I would do it based on the factual reasons only and just trying to decide how to approach it politely but firmly as possible.<br>

Nadine, the wedding will be in Auburn. I would like to fly into Sacramento since flights cost less into that airport but I am waiting for, yet again, more info from my SIL (who lives in Marin) on if they are driving up there the friday night before the wedding or the morning of since they would be picking me up at the airport. I am hoping for friday night because I prefer not to fly in and have to instantly get started but I'll do what I have to if this deal goes through.<br>

Again, I truly appreciate all of the input you all have provided. Extremely helpful! :)</p>

[simon_crofts]

<p>John, my last post sounds like I'm trying to contradict you - I wasn't trying to do that, I hadn't seen yours when I posted mine.</p>

<p>We could get into a happy discussion of why we think there is/isn't a legal risk - for a whole host of reasons I really don't think there is any risk at all yet, judging from what the OP has described. There will be legal risk however if Shannon signs up.</p>

<p>But I think it would be a diversion from the real issue: the family relationships one.</p>

 

[daverhaas]

<p>Simon -</p>

<p>Not to hijack the thread - but if Shannon has a signed contract and payment in hand - her legal risk is greatly reduced IMHO.</p>

<p>She (and other parties) are then bound by the legal terms (and limitations) of the contract - not by he said / she said things - and not by relationships and friendships.</p>

<p>The risk of her signing on at this point is that she ends up with a "picky" client - and that client keeps asking for or demanding re-do's / re-edits / extra copies / etc.... None of which we have been given any indication that the couple will be - other than the couple or SIL (I forgot which) saying that the OP's fee was a bit higher than they expected to pay for a package - and that perhaps none of her packages where exactly what they (couple) wanted. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>if Shannon has a signed contract and payment in hand - her legal risk is greatly reduced IMHO</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I meant that if Shannon decides not to go ahead, tells the B&G and SIL that she doesn't want to shoot the wedding and won't sign the contract, and she doesn't in fact shoot the wedding then pragmatically there's no legal risk. If she goes ahead and signs the contract, and agrees to do the wedding, she always has a real legal risk, contract or no contract - eg. she could be sued for not doing a good enough job, or because she broke her leg and couldn't turn up, or because the images were destroyed by a thunderstorm etc. etc.</p>

[michaelchadwickphotography]

<p>Shannon, if you're not putting a favorable relationship at risk in the first place, get out now. Run for the hills. There's a real problem when family hires you to do something. I call it "Powdered Butt Syndrome" which means if someone powdered your butt when you were a kid, they can never think of you as a professional anything. Same principle applies to the "A prophet is not without honor save in his own land." This actually applies even more so to in-laws and other indirect family members, for some reason. If you are a family member, you automatically can be taken for a ride and not treated as a professional. That professional distance, no matter how "close" we get with the bride and groom on their wedding day and beyond, must still exist. Your SIL has shown pretty clearly that she does not respect you and your professional entity - do you think it's going to get better when the photos are delivered? What about the forty-eight retouches she is going to hound you for without giving you anything for your time? Family "favors" are nothing but a time-suck. They don't respect your financial business considerations, what makes you think they will respect your time considerations?</p>

<p>Run, Forrest, Run!</p>

[seth_.]

<p>I havent read all the comments, so I'll only give my immediate reaction, because I've been caught in the same kind of trap (my own fault).<br /> It sounds like you have definitely dug yourself into a hole.<br /> Having to justify things when you know people are going to get all bent out of shape (and you just KNOW they will, right?) is a real PITA.</p>

<p>Going ahead and doing the job might be a real pain in the a$$ as well, but I would suggest you do this:<br /> - Figure out if the trip is going to be profitable. If not, then maybe you can put across a good argument for not doing it.<br /> If you're going to make poor money or even if it becomes an expense, maybe just turn around your thinking and tell yourself it's a vacation and you're doing a favour. Then resolve to have a really great time and a change of scenery and throw yourself into it.<br>

- Learn to recognise the 'favour' jobs a bit earlier if you can (they can sneak up on you!).<br /> - Smack your SIL and tell her not to put you in the same position again.<br>

- Get the paperwork sorted, of course! :)</p>

[Jerry_]

<p>They want a budget photographer, so provide them with a budget wedding. If, for some reason, you need to *rent* equipment and do the wedding as a favor to your sister-in-law, you need far more advice than anyone on Photo Net can muster up.</p>

<p>Those that must have a Porsche for the price of a VW....should not seek *budget* wedding photographers.</p>

<p> </p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>We could get into a happy discussion</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Indeed. But I agree there is substantially more risk going forward and legal risk now is questionable. The details are somewhat vague. Anyway, I would offer the quick deadline in this scenario (not that I would permit the situation to arise in the first place) largely because I agreed in principle to do it and left the door open for these delays. It would provide one last chance for the relatives to get their act together.</p>

<p>That said, others say they would pursue another course and they seem well within the bounds of sound reason. Is a very sketchy situation. There may be no one best answer. Time is not on Shannon's side. Whatever course is pursued, a decision must be implemented soon.</p>

[sandy_labana]

<p>Hi Shannon:  To keep peace in the family, I suggest this:  Tell SIL to send you airline ticket, pick you up at the airport and pay for the hotel rooms and any meals.  Also tell her the cash amount she needs to pay you.  If you have no contract with B&G, you have no responsibility to them.  Provide them with whatever you think appropriate.  Do not think of this as paid job but a favor to your SIL.  If you do not care to do her a favor then just decline  by giving a plausible reason.  You will need to give a reason for SIL to save face with B&G. Sandy</p>

[dirtlawyer]

<p>Sandy; I hate to contradict but there is a responsibility to the B&G. This would be a "third party beneficiary contract" which can be enforced by the "real" beneficiary.</p>

[richard_miller5]

No matter what happens, let us know how this plays out, what a soap opera.

 

Good luck

[colleendonovan]

<p>There is plenty of time for them to find a $500 photographer. I wouldn't touch this wedding with a ten ft (or longer) pole. Neither of the parties value you or your business. Walk away. No - RUN away!!!</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>Do not think of this as paid job but a favor to your SIL</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Another thought. I don't know of course, but I think it's very likely that the SIL thinks that she is actually doing Shannon a favour. She probably thinks that $500 is a crazily high amount of money for turning up and snapping a few pictures. She probably think that any hesitation on Shannon's side is ingratitude. If Shannon goes ahead and does it, SIL will probably think that Shannon really owes her one now.</p>

<p>Just another reason to avoid the whole thing like the plague.</p>

 

[kiva]

<p>Please consider being involved in letting this wedding go.</p>

<p>Do you know or can you research a good wedding photographer in the local area of the wedding location to see if there is a wedding photographer who can step in and do a nice job in your place.</p>

<p>It can be important to you, as a professional wedding photographer, to see this debacle to a conclusion. If you have to shoot the wedding then do so and take the lose like a man (smile) and if you can find a local photographer to do the wedding then you've gracefully backed away. </p>

<p>It's better, for you, imo, as a pro photographer, to see this through to the end and count your lessons learned. Do the right thing ... you've learned a set of valuable lessons so you might actually be indebted to the sil and the wedding couple. Give thanks and move on.</p>

[Aoresteen]

<p>Send written notice NOW declining the job to the B&G and the SIL. Don't even think about walking into this swamp.</p>

[spurcell]

<p>Hi all,<br>

I thought I would pop in and give you an update as to what happened with this situation.<br>

I took the advice of some and gave them a deadline of 4/30/11 to provide the contact and deposit and expressed my concern with the lack of response as well as the fact that I felt I had been more than accomodating with no respect in return. At that time my SIL apologized for the delay and said she understood my frustration. She also informed me that it was not her paying and that it was her boyfriend and the groom paying and that she would letting them handle it from then on out. I let her know that I wish I had that information in the beginning because I would have then dealt with them only.<br>

I didn't hear from anyone for a week or until after the deadline so I respectfully declined the job. I did provide a referral as well as suggestions on how to find a student or first year photographer but received no response. I did see on Facebook that my SIL had posted a desperate request for anyone that knew a great photographer for her friends wedding. I don't know if they've found anyone to date as I haven't heard from her. However, I am relieved to not be doing this wedding. I just think the whole situation would have continued to be unorganized and probably chaotic - which is not a situation I want to be in if I don't have to be.<br>

Thank you again for all of your advice and opinions. Much appreciated!</p>

[dirtlawyer]

<p>Whatever your religion, check with your spritual advisor for a prayer of thanks for having managed a narrow escape. Utter it and go on with your life.</p>

[rob_oresteen]

<p>"I would feel bad that the B&G had to scramble to find another photographer"</p>

<p>Why? They do not appear that concerned about their wedding Photography, why then, should you?</p>

<p>The cheaper or free-er wedding photography becomes for the bride, the less your time and talent are valued.</p>

<p>Decline - they can find someone local for $500.00 who will do it on the drop of of dime and give them exactly what they deserve.</p>