League wants a $$$$ kickback

[brian_hammond1]

<p>I had an offer to shoot action shots of a local soccer league, the problem I have is twofold<br>

1. The league already has another photography company to do their individual and team pics.<br>

2. They only want me to do action shots after the other photographer has done his bit and collected his money<br>

then they want 15% of my sales.</p>

<p>This does not sound too bad but I am worried that most parents will have already bought from the other guy and with the slower economy I will be left holding a ton of pics and still having to dish out 15%<br>

HELP!!!!!!!!!</p>

 

[Matt Laur]

<p>How can you dish out 15% on unsold photos? You'd only be paying the club when the club's members/families pay <em>you</em>, so you're only risking your time, not any cash.<br /><br />The action shots are - if they're done right - going to be very sellable, since they're quite a bit different than the posed uniform shots. But are you talking about setting up shop and printing on-site during tournaments? Before we get into what that can entail, it might help if you mentioned how you see that soft of thing going. Sales after the fact, on-line, might be easier for you logistically, but will come at the expense of losing many impulse purchases that would happen if you were printing and selling on site.</p>

[brian_hammond1]

<p>Matt, yes I get that but I am concerned about giving a kickback after the other guy has sold his stuff. I am hoping that the parents of the league will have enough $$$ left to buy my stuff.<br>

In other leagues we have done both the team and action pics and given a 15% kicker, this time it's only the action</p>

[henryp]

<blockquote>

<p>In other leagues we have done both the team and action pics and given a 15% kicker, this time it's only the action</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Have you considered a counter offer for a smaller per centage this year and the promise of 15% next year if you get both the posed and action contracts? Also, I've seen contracts where the league gets a per centage of the PACKAGE sales, but add-ons are not included. The packages and add-ons are then structured by the photographer to maximize add-on sales. For example, one 5x7 + 4 3x5 might be $xx, but the wallets and the photo-on-a-button (or whatever's popular where you are) are add-ons and the photographer keeps 100% of that.</p>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong></p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Brian -</p>

<p>As Matt pointed out - you only pay the league if you sell photos - If you don't sell any - they don't get a cut. Problem is that you're shooting on "Spec" which means you spend a lot of time shooting a lot of photos with no guarantee that you will make dollar 1.</p>

<p>Problem 1 (as you've presented it) - The league has someone else for t/i shots... Most leagues do their photo contracts a season ahead - meaning that now is the time for fall sports to start looking at photographers and locking them in. The other challenge is that many times these leagues are staffed by volunteers - who for various reasons - take the path of least resistance - and continue with the "guy that did them last year". Occasionally a photographer will screw up the T/I so badly that they (league) will go find a new photographer. I've seen blue jersey's be purple, all photos have a yellow yint, etc... Occassionally - you'll find a board looking for a new photographer because a board member wasn't happy with their kid's photos.</p>

<p>Problem 2 - They want you to do the action shots after the T/I guy has done the team shots... no biggie - really typical - espeically for larger leagues. Most often a large league will set up a picture day fairly early in the season - maybe even preseason - then do their team / ind photos at that time. That way the photos don't interfere with games. I've found that most parents want both an action shot and a posted shot.</p>

<p>As Matt pointed out (and has been asked / answered a few times) - the difficulty isn't in shooting the action - it's in getting the parents to order - The further out you are from an event - the less likely parents are to order. On site is the best - but it comes with a price to you. On-line automated (Roes, PhotoReflect, SmugMug) are good - but they take a cut and then you have that diminishing chance of ordering.</p>

<p>The other challenge of action shots - and sales thereof - is that you are competling with MWC / DWC (mom's and dad's with cameras) - Depending on the league / teams - a great many of the parents may have cameras with tricked out 70-300 mm zooms and be able to get that shot of little janie or johnny themselves. Then they will take photos of others on their team and hand them out to the other parents for free. And you can't compete with Free.<br>

Good luck -</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[tate_jackson]

<p>I am a DWC for my son's little league baseball team. <br>

I can tell you that in my organization, every team has a volunteer parent who takes of all the team games and events and makes them available to the the parents of team members.<br>

What parents in my area seem to want is an entire season photographed and not just 1 or 2 games. Maybe you should try and approach individual teams and see if they will hire you for a season. I know it sounds crazy, but I have been approached by a couple of other teams asking what I would charge to photograph an entire season for them.<br>

BTW, another advanage a league approved photgrapher has is access. As a DWC, I have to stay outside the fence line at my kid's games. The offical league or tournement photographer gets to be on the field and in the dougout.</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>I get that <em>[i only pay 15% of sales from the SOLD images]</em> but I am concerned about giving a kickback after the other guy has sold his stuff. I am hoping that the parents of the league will have enough $$$ left to buy my stuff.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It is unclear if this is for a Weekend or One Day Event, <strong>or if this is for the Season's Games?</strong><br>

<strong><em> </em></strong><br>

<strong><em>I am answering for a Weekend or One Day Event.</em></strong><br>

There are two ways of looking at this.<br>

<br />The first is your time is abundant and you are not costing it (and / or you are building Business Rapport) – in which case any Sale is more $ than a no sale.<br />Therefore the answer is: do it. (also Henry Posner’s Counter Proposal suits this scenario – I would do that too)</p>

<p>The second is more calculated and is predicated upon the fact that you are costing your time, because either you can earn at $X rate otherwise engaged; or you place $ value on your Time Off.<br />OK – so basically your “takings” are only 85% of the advertised Selling Price.<br />So, simply calculate your break-even point: Number of Print Sales. Use the most popular size only.<br />I refer to your previous: <a href="00XTlC">http://www.photo.net/sports-photography-forum/00XTlC</a><br />With that experience as a guide then make an educated guess as to whether you will sell the number of Action Prints to make or exceed the break-even point.<br />If Yes: do it.<br />If No: decline.</p>

<p>In either case there is no use “being worried about it”. You have more facts applicable to the situation at your disposal, than any respondents here.</p>

<p>If this is for the Season's Games: then I would be far more circumspect as commitment to 12 or 15 match days does not seem a lucrative scenario, I can judge only from the Junior Soccer Seasons Tournaments with which I am familiar - your season and the enthusiasm for Photos from each game, might be different. </p>

<p>WW</p>

[gaute_solheim1]

<p>I am a parent, and I do know what I want: The action photos of my kid. The team photos are not that interesting. And it isn't just me. The feed back from the other parents of the kids my two girls are playing handball with is unison: They will take an avarage quality action photo of their kid any day over a team photo.<br>

The kind of pictures parents love to see is like this one<br>

<img id="ImgSrc_5" src="http://www.njard.no/resources/imagebank/000/012/533.gif" alt="" /></p>

[wade_thompson]

<p>my advice its try it out and learn from it.</p>

<p>I've done just what you said and the parents (of younger ones) love to get photos that they can't take or get.<br>

good luck! get the experience then tweak it for the next time.</p>

<p>go for it!</p>

[bikealps]

<p>I shoot cycling and face some of the same issues.<br />Some events are incredibly photogenic and generate huge traffic, but don't generate sales.<br />To generate sales, you have to hit a large number of athletes and hit the target market. Which athletes will buy?<br />Smugmug works well if people have visibility to your site. 15% commission is ok, but if you pay 15% to smugmug and 15% to the organizers you better jack up your prices. DO you need the league's permission. Their only value is to give you permission and get the word out. Can you get the word out some other way and get customers to see your smugmug site?<br />I notice that, of the action shots I sell, a lot of them are "baseball cards." That means good, sharp photos of just the athlete. Action phots with multple athletes don't sell as well. Sure, the posed guy will do well, but people will strongly prefer your photos if you can get an action-style "baseball card" shot.<br />As an example, attached is an action-style shot that I consider to be a "baseball card." No I didn't sell this one, but it's a good example (apart from the fact it's not perfectly sharp).</p><div></div>

[daniel_farina]

<p>Brian,<br>

I have experience on this very subject. <br>

While I've very much enjoyed shooting youth sports the past few years, I think I can safely say that if you simply go out and shoot action photos of the kids, you won't get a lot of sales "after the fact".<br>

Whether it's a matter of convenience, or laziness, or lack of time, what ever, I think you'll find that MOST people will just look at the photos online, but never by. You'll make a few dollars here and there, but not serious money.<br>

I offer "Onsite photography and printing" for tournaments etc, ONLY as a way to get exposure to the leagues/teams. It's something new I doing this year, but it's really coming together. I've got several weekends booked over the next few months.<br>

My business plan is simple: Get out there and shake hands with as many people as possible, like coaches and league organizers, so I can get their TEAM PHOTO DAY BUSINESS. Period. <br>

I offer a 15% kickback for Photo Day business. I think that's pretty common nowadays. Not positive on that. MOST tournament organizers have the idea, or attitude of "what's in it for us"?<br>

<strong>I felt that I had to make a decision, offer onsite photos and printing to attract leagues and teams to my services, or just go out and shoot because I enjoy doing it.</strong><br>

So far, I'm happy with the results.<br>

If you really work at it, things WILL happen.<br>

Dan</p>

<p>I think you should give it a shot no matter what. </p>

[ted_suss]

<p>On site printing will yield many more/larger sales than online sales. When the kids and parents are there and excited is when you will see your greatest return. 15% is fine as it's based on sales.<br>

I think your real challenge is getting action shots of each athlete (including those who sit on the bench)!</p>