how do you (or how did you) get practice in?

[danzel_c]

<p>how do you, or how DID you, get practice in. for example, new poses, techniques, lighting setups, compositions, your ability to demonstrate or instruct, etc. i have a friend who is a model, and what i'm thinking to to ask her for some male/female contacts who either are or "wanna be" models. the most likely to get excited would be the wanna-be's is my guess. whats in it for them are free images. what's in it for me is confidence in what ever area i plan to practice in. for example mid day bright day light which is not ideal but something you can't always avoid with weddings. if anyone else does this do you give print rights only or full copyright? also, any other ways you get practice in? i practice with my kids but they are still little and can only take so much! thx!</p>

[wclark5179]

<p>I've found that it can be confusing, with one person telling how to make these photographs and then another says something else and so on.</p>

<p>My recommendations:<br /> Find someone who has a similar view of the world as you do. This person makes photographs that tell a story like you want to tell. This individual would be willing to serve as your teacher, coach and mentor. Stick with that person through thick and thin.</p>

<p>Yes, you can experiment and try out new ideas. Some of those ideas for making photographs may come from you. That's where you can put your creative stamp on images you make.</p>

<p>I believe you need a good foundation on the basics of people photography. Then go ahead, break the rules, do your thing so long as you know the basics and are aware of what you're doing.<br /> Join the PPA and/or WPPI. If your community or a community near you has a local PPA affiliate, I recommend you consider joining and participating at workshops they hold. <br /> You can buy various books and DVD's on photography. There are plenty of them out there.</p>

<p>To conclude:<br /> Find someone who would be a mentor for you.<br /> Learn the basics.<br /> Join a professional organization.<br /> Get your creative side of your brain working all the time, thinking about how I would capture this scene or moment.<br /> Always work on learning. I find it's a constant process.</p>

[danzel_c]

<p>thanks for the reply william. this question isn't from a "i'm totally new to this" perspective. i've got got at least 30 weddings under my belt and have actually shot with and learned from pnet's one and only mr dave schilling! in addition to picking up concepts and knpwdelge from experienced people such as you here on pnet. i also have plenty of dvds, books, taken classes, attended seminars etc. but i have not joined a professional organization which is on my "to do" list! i only shoot about 6 to 10 weddings. professionals seem to use models on a regular basis, so i assume this is the way to go as far as building up portfolios, and practicing. thoughts/comments? thx!</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>" i have a friend who is a model, and what i'm thinking to to ask her for some male/female contacts who either are or "wanna be" models. the most likely to get excited would be the wanna-be's is my guess. whats in it for them are free images."</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />That would be my guess, too. But ensure as well as shooting what they require; you shoot what you require, too.<br /><br />WW</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>Besides the weddings that I began with, I used to belong to a glamour photography club. We had some members that were serious about photography and a number of guys that were more into shooting pretty young gals. I also belonged to a couple of online boards for models where TFP (trade for prints) shoots were very common. Nowadays you can find many shooters and aspiring models advertising on craiglist trying to arrange TFD (trade for disks). Generally you grant the model usage in their folio and unlimited personal printing privileges. Never sign away copyright and be sure to have the model sign a release which grants you full use of the images. I've got some model releases around the house if you'd like to use one as a sample.</p>

<p>Also, it's pretty easy to find kids that you can shoot (I've got a couple of boys that you're welcome to do a brother's shoot session with if you'd like). Many parents will gladly loan out the kids in exchange for some prints or a thumb drive they can take to Walgreens or wherever.</p>

<p>With many of my early weddings I would experiment with a new pose or technique in non-essential capture moments. Generally, I'd try to add just one or two new things at each wedding.... Do you remember the experiments I tried with the deer spotlight at the wedding in Bridgeview a few years back? :-)</p>

[danzel_c]

<p>great advice WW...thx! dave, my kids only seem to only behave during a photo shoot when dad's not the one behind the camera so maybe we can swap kids for a day indeed! i like the craigslist TFD idea. i'll take a look there. if i make a connection with someone i will surely take you up on the sample model release form. maybe we can hook up for coffee soon. the deer spotlight idea was pretty quick and painless to the couple from what i remember. i open to quick experimenting with my brides and grooms. thx!</p>

[fotografz]

<p>You seem to have a lot of the under-pinnings down already, and a good mentor. It seems you want to practice solving problems one may face when shooting a wedding and/or tighten down some techniques until you are very comfortable and familiar with them under pressure. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, doing a model shoot isn't really the same as shooting a wedding. The pressure isn't there like at a wedding. The difference between shooting models for a job, and doing it for free is world's apart ... on a commercial shoot, the model is being paid ... usually by the hour, and it isn't an insignificant cost either ... so everything is figured out before hand and shoots are very efficient in order to keep to budget. </p>

<p>Here's a thought Denzel ... work toward placing a time limit on yourself. You may have to build toward it, but in the end it should be the goal because it is a fact of life at a wedding shoot. It'll sharpen your situation analysis and decision making process.</p>

<p>Even though I am primarily a journalistic style wedding shooter, I am good at posed work and lighting because I shot many commercial jobs with models for at least 10 years before shooting weddings.</p>

<p>Another source of models once you get some done at a more leisurely pace, is modeling agencies ... get samples together and meet with a talent agent to offer doing comp sheets for aspiring models, or those needing updated sheets. Working with experienced models is also helpful as you see how they work with the photographer ... it'll give you some directional ideas as to what can be done and how the model strikes a pleasing pose.</p>

[danzel_c]

<p>excellent...thanks marc! i agree with keeping in mind that the practice is for a wedding, which will make for a different mind set. i like the idea of working my way up to experienced models. it would be a breath of fresh air to actually have someone behind the camera who doesn't say, "so now what do i do", like many of my brides do. by the way, can you expand a little on your comment about the differences being worlds apart when shooting a model for free vs paid?</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Simply that a paid print model is not cheap on a commercial shoot, so you don't screw around and do stuff at a lazy pace ... the model doesn't care if you are slow or disorganized (unless they have another shoot to go to) because they just make more money. The more in demand, or the more booked a model is, the higher the pay rate. (Models/Talent for TV/Film are a completely different pay structure governed by SAG-AFTRA).</p>

<p>On commercial shoots, everything is prepped and a stand-in is used to block in the lighting, so when the model arrives their wardrobe and make-up can be done ... and the make-up artist knows what the lighting scenario will be. The make-up artists is usually 1/2 day rate unless they are in demand, then it is a full day or nothing. Go over the 1/2 day by a little, and you pay for a full day. </p>

<p>When working with a model for free/trade deals, the time you have to monitor is your own. A model will let you shoot until the cows come home ... LOL! So, it's best to set a time frame. Completely different mind-set.</p>

<p>BTW, "Now what do I do?" shouldn't even happen. You should take charge immediately, pick the place, arrange the subjects and do a concise modeling tips tutorial ... a little flattery and humor then doesn't hurt while doing that either.</p>

<p>When you do the "practice sessions" with models, keep tear sheets of the successful poses in your bag to reference at a wedding. I often do drawings of ideas a few days beforehand. </p>

[danzel_c]

Thanks again mark. It all makes sense. I can see them acting as if it is indeed a paid session with unlimited time and photos. And I like the idea of reviewing modeling/posing tips with my bride and grooms before hand, mostly the brides. I've had a few occasions where as soon as I start the formals the bride raises her flowers to her face and becomes stiff as a pole. As I explain what looks nicer which is lowering the flowers, weight on the back foot front foot forward and such I sometimes get the "what do I do next" questions!

[picturesque]

<p>If you are wanting to practice directing a bride, hiring a model or even a want-to-be model is not the way to go. A model or aspiring model knows what to do with her body and already has good 'body sense'. Most brides do not have good body sense at all (some do, and when I get one, I shoot like crazy).</p>

<p>It is one thing to have 'poses' in mind, and quite another to get a no-body-sense bride to just relax enough to look that way with even your most basic directions (weight on back foot, etc.). If I have such a bride, I just go through a basic set of poses, and even repeat the set after the bride has gotten used to me and my directions. The second set is usually better. Giving the same directions to a no body sense bride as to a model is a recipe for disaster, IMHO. The basic set of poses involves directions most anyone can understand and perform. If I set up a basic pose and the bride still looks stiff and uncomfortable, I ramp down to even more basic poses while upping my efforts to make her feel comfortable by engaging in small talk or getting her bridesmaids to make funny comments, etc. Sometimes I even stop and ask her to take a deep breath, shake her arms and drop her shoulders for a minute.</p>

<p>If I get a bride with body sense, I really burn up the shutter with poses, and even let the bride 'do her thing' with minimal directions from me, because a bride with body sense usually looks good pretty much no matter what she is doing. Semi-directions, such as telling the bride to twirl around or just walk along a path, or sniff her flowers, or react to a bridesmaid's comments or something similar, are all you'd need to get some pretty relaxed and natural looking images. For this kind of bride I can see practicing with a model and developing a set of advanced poses.</p>

[ted_suss]

<p>Danzel,<br>

Make sure you get model releases and have everyone sign them BEFORE you start shooting. You should also have some type of contract so that everyone understands what is expected of the and specifically what you are providing them. This will avoid a lot of misunderstanding afterwards.</p>

[rippo]

<p>Even though working with models/aspiring models is not the same as a fast-paced wedding, it still allows you to get some practice in. Working with and directing people with no pressure is still a valid learning experience. I would first of all suggest skipping craigslist and going right to modelmayhem.com. Having shot a fair number of fashion and model tests, I can say it's the best source for models who will work for TFP. If you want to simulate a bride with no body sense, find a model who's just signed up! I can guarantee she will have no body sense, and it will be just like "real life" and you'll have to learn to direct her (or him, if you're working some groom shoots in too). However working with someone who has some experience can still be very useful, because you can then see how someone *should* look.<br>

Be aware though that models want something for their portfolios. So they want to look good. You'll need to convince them you won't be wasting their time. And you also have to decide if you're paying for a hair/makeup artist, can find some that will work for TFP (harder to find than models), or having the model do her own. Believe me, it can be done. It just requires a certain amount of 'production' effort.<br>

If you've got a weekend where you're not shooting, then you might as well be practicing. What can it hurt?</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Nadine, the suggestion to use models wasn't necessarily for directing less aware brides as much as answering the OPs question of practicing shooting in various lighting etc. Using practiced models is also a learning tool for the less experienced photographer looking to practice ... observing how to place and direct a Bride when they ask "what should I do now".</p>

<p>Seeing how a model holds themselves and places their feet, how they shift their weight, etc. provides some specific directional input to suggest to a bride ... which even less body aware women do appreciate. If they do not want to do it ... oh well ... but I've yet had that happen. </p>

<p>There is also a big difference between aspiring models, and practiced ones. Beginners can be just as awkward as a normal bride. They may have more body presence, but first time in front of the "professional" camera that can suddenly evaporate.</p>

<p>ALSO, it is a common mistake to categorize all models as "fashion" type models. Talent shops do not only list professionally trained models, a lot of people are recruited, or ask to be listed for the files, to cover all types ... there are plus sized, ethnic, even models that have never been in front of a camera and need comp sheets. Fully half of the models I've used for commercial print advertising were first timers and selected because they represented the consumer demographic. One top shooter in this area was famous for always picking people off the street to use as models.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Sure, Marc. It just wouldn't be my first choice if I wanted to practice. I'd sooner use friends or people unschooled at all, since, IMHO, that would be closer to what I'd get in 'real life'. I also would think that if one didn't already know about positioning, one would not be able to pick up on what a skilled model does.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Well, I'd have to disagree with that Nadine ... IF one went into the session with the intent of observing the model in action. If the person's powers of observation were so poor as to not pick-up on what the model is doing ... including studying the photos afterwards ... then the photographer is in for rough sledding in more ways than just posing a Bride.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Marc--we may disagree, but I don't think so. What I'm talking about is the old 'weight on the back foot' kind of thing. If, as a photographer, one doesn't already have some basic knowledge about how to position a human being to look good, that photographer will not be able to easily pick up on why a model looks good in this or that pose. I've seen it in action when I've helped train wedding photographers. I can see being able to acquire new or different poses, or new ideas from having photographed a very skilled model, IF one already has some basic concepts about posing already down. However, some of these will probably be poses a 'regular' person may not be able to accomplish while looking natural.</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>I think it's easy to under-estimate the value and experienced gained by shooting models (new or experienced) especially with an emphasis on glamour. Many, if not almost all of my brides have enjoyed being the center of attention and most especially enjoyed a glamour flavor to their portraiture sessions. It can also add an air of fun to the experience....</p>

[William Michael]

<p>I think it is easy to underestimate the value of Shooting . . . Anything, Anyone, any Situation.</p>

<p>If I have planned, prepped and thought just a little before I pulled the shot - even if it is a nanosecond and the thought was: "Bill - get that", and nothing more . . . And if I have I analysed just a little after the shot . . . I have ALWAYS learnt something that I can apply to another shot, plan, idea, or prep.</p>

<p>That isn't to say that we will not learn more about Wedding Photography at a Master Class on Wedding Photography, than we what we might learn about Wedding Photography whilst we are photographing a School Geography Field Trip, (but I did get some good ideas about Locations Shots for the Formals) </p>

<p>IMO - The idea of going into any shooting situation, being prescriptive about what there is to learn from it - is limiting, very limiting.</p>

<p>WW </p>

 

[dave_wilson1]

<p>When I used to do some bridal gown catalogue and bridal magazine shoots 1990s, some of the models were more trouble than the actual brides, too dramatic and busy, flirty. If I had my choice I would work with experienced dance and ballet trained models, they are great to work with as they have fantastic control over their bodies. Also for practice, learn to control ONE light source, then suppliment or add reflectors, fill flash etc. otherwise there are too many variables you don't have a solid understanding of. Isolate details also. At one time I spent hours and hours studying, lighting and posing/positioning hands and fingers for detail shots of bridal gown sleeves, gloves, rings and other jewelry. Every aspect of a gown is meant to work a certain way, that's the way the designer made them, so to display or catalogue them they need to be shown correctly. The seams, pleats, buttons, hooks, under layers, sleeves, train, everything maters. Of course during a wedding this can only be controlled at certain points, such as during any formal portraits that are staged/posed. Although, for a mostly PJ type wedding, you can watch for certain times when the dress looks the best. You can make friends possibly at a local bridal shop, tell them you're a photographer and would like to maybe do some gown shots and you'll give them files in return. There are endless possibilities to practice.</p>