first LF camera

[will_menaje]

<p>Dear all,<br>

I'm investigating the market to buy a LF technical camerasystem, hoping you experts could narrow down the choices...<br>

These are my specifications so far:<br>

- amateur use but decent quality, second hand for budget reasons<br>

- vertical and horizontal shifts as last movements so they are in the film plane for the back standard<br>

- "portable" for use in the field<br>

Thanks,<br>

Will</p>

[kparratt]

<p>Hi Will - where are you located? USA, Europe .. ? So we can point you to suppliers in your region. Ebay stores around the world also have different ranges of gear.<br>

There have recently been a number of questions, some generating quite long discussions, which would be of value to you. Choice depends partly on where you are, but mostly about the fields of photography that interest you. You should spend some time researching the thousands of words already posted in the many discussion threads.<br>

Whatever you buy, remember, it does not have to be the one and only. Exploring the potential of the camera you do start with, will lead to your own better informed choice when you, if you, decide to upgrade to better meet your needs. If you take care of it, it will hold it's value.<br>

Good luck and enjoy.<br>

Cheers, Kevin</p>

[Two23]

<p>Taking of photos of what? Are you thinking 4x5 or 8x10? Price range for system?</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

[will_menaje]

<p>region = europe<br>

budget = 500 euro max for the basic set without lenses<br>

format =4x5<br>

objects are architecture on location, product/macro at home</p>

<p>hope this helps pointing me in the good direction,<br>

Will</p>

[brit]

<p>Thats about 700 USD for our North American friends. Sorry can't help much with the camera ideas though.</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>There are some very good systems out there. A Crown or Speed Graphic is very inexpensive, built like tanks, and have a little movement. I like my Crown Graphic because it is so compact and easy to load up in my car.</p>

<p>Otherwise, I would look to systems that are easy to get parts for (or there have been lots of them made). Toyo or Omega would fit the bill. Usually very inexpensive with tons of accessories and parts. For about the same money, you can buy a Sinar F1 or F2 for not much money, and you can upgrade the parts pretty easily to use with an X, P, or P2. Cambo might rate third on my list for available parts, though I'm generally not thrilled with the system. And I would also look at the Horseman L series cameras (I really like them).</p>

<p>I bought my Crown Graphic first, then a Toyo View 45F, then a Sinar X. I still use all of them, but I don't take my X out into the field usually. My Crown Graphic goes in my backpack a lot. And my Toyo View is what I use for what I call "trunk photography", where I'm traveling and working from my car.</p>

<p>But it would be useful to know what you want to photograph. If you're doing product shots, nothing compares to the Sinar system that tells you what will be in focus (DOF), or the Horseman accessory computer. Oddly, you may find that any of them are in the same price range for a given source. If you had to choose one over another, I'd buy a Sinar.</p>

[kparratt]

<p>Okay ...<br>

Then forget about Crown and Speed Graphics. They are 'wanna be Linhofs', made in, and mostly sold in the USA. For 500 Euro, you can, with a little patience get the real thing, a Technika III for example. They are 50+ years old, and really built to last another 50. The issued lenses are plentiful and inexpensive, and you will most likely pick up a camera and lens included within your budget. I've seen several<br>

Later you can upgrade from say, the Angulon F6.8 90mm, to a Super Angulon when funds permit, and your acquired expertise justifies the expense, bearing in mind that the larger image circle, and a faster aperture of later lenses increases not only the price tag, but the physical dimensions of the lens, such that they can not be left on the camera when folded away. The 'best' lens is often not what you get from hearsay about how good a particular lens is, but the one selected by the designers of the camera, who have considered everything, with you in mind.<br>

Lens shift and other movements. You will be surprised at just how little shift is actually required for most architectural subjects. The Technika III and onwards provides for more than enough.<br>

One short coming of my early III is the inability to mount roll film magazines, and I really need to fit a grid screen for much of my work. Later IIIs are ok, as of course are models' IV and onwards.<br>

(I have to cut this short, to continue later - you can also message me privately if you wish)</p>

<p>Cheers, Kevin</p><div></div>

[Two23]

<p>The Linhoff above would work, so would a Tachichara, so would a Shen Hao. For a lens, look for a used Schneider Super Angulon 90mm f5.6 or a Nikon 90mm f8. You need something wide and with a big image circle. MIght need a bag bellows with a 90mm, to use the movements. A 120mm lens would probably work too. Buy used, there are plenty of great choices out there.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

[jenny_jaques]

<p>There are no Tachiharas on German eBay at the moment, and just one in the UK. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tachihara-Large-Format-5x4-Field-Camera-/290544398380?pt=UK_Photography_Film_Cameras_ET&hash=item43a5cbb02c"><strong>Watch this</strong></a> and see how much it goes for. The only Shen Haos showing up are in the USA, for roughly your budget, on the item price, plus another 30+ Euro shipping, and you can count on 17% tax on top of that in the UK, 19% to much of Europe, and around 25% to Scandinavian countries. All total above your budget.<br>

A Toyo Field Camera 4x5 is an alternative to the suggested Technika, but harder to find one in very good condition for your price. As you are in Europe, I would have to second Kevin's suggestion of a Linhof. It is worth looking around for a monorail Linhof too. They are always appearing and often for very reasonable prices. You can easily set one up with a short rail for landscape and architecture. It is not as bulky as first imagined. Once in the Linhof system, many components are compatible with other models.<br>

Again I have to say I go with Kevin's words about the lens. 90mm is the standard 'wide angle' for 4x5 / 9x12, and it is simply not necessary to have huge image circle. You are talking about a tight budget? Right, then you should look at something really affordable, that can stay on the camera when folded up, and go for another if and when your skills have exceeded it's potential.<br>

Whatever you do get ... enjoy it ! ;-)<br>

JJ</p>

[mark_ritz]

<p>About Toyo/Omega view cameras: some of the cheaper ones (like my 45D), while very cheap, I paid less than US$50 w/o lens, they have fixed bellows. So, when using Wide lenses, movements get limited by the bellows getting too stiff. This can be a problem with architecture photos.</p>

<p>The higher end Toyo-Views and Sinars, Arcas, etc have bag bellow options to get around that.</p>

[will_menaje]

<p>already many thanks for the suggestions!<br>

here 's how the decision develops:<br>

really tempted by the Linhof Technika, it definitely breaths quality,<br>

for product macro I think I need an extension for the folding solutions, found for Linhof, not so sure about the others...<br>

then again, following the Sinar route , why not a Norma, or are these abused @ 500 euro I see some sold?<br>

best regards,</p>

[jenny_jaques]

<blockquote>

<p>abused @ 500 euro ?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Absolutely not! It's just the vintage, like Linhof Kardan models of the same era. Beautiful cameras. I just had in mind you wanting 'compactability' / smaller, neater package for outdoors, and Sinar have never got into the 'drop bed' design. Same goes for Arca Swiss.<br>

Linhof and Sinar have a much longer company history than Arca Swiss, so have been made in greater numbers, through an array of model developments, each with greater production numbers, so there is much more out there. All are known for precision engineering second to none.<br>

Regarding the Norma, it would be good if you could find a short rail as an accessory for wide angle use, and neaten the package, but unless you are on foot, I guess it's not that big an issue.</p>

[timlayton]

<p>Will, based on your requirements a field camera sounds like the best fit. I have personally bought a number of LF equipment from badgergraphic.com. For example, you can get a Shen-Hao 4x5 field camera with 360mm of bellows draw for $679 US. That should be about 500 Euro. Here is the link: https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=120</p>

<p>For lenses I would suggest keh.com. I've bought many of my LF lenses from them rated "BGN" bargain and they are always in beautiful condition. For example I just got a 210mm Nikon F5.6 for $215 US. You mention architecture and closeup work. With 360mm bellows draw you could use a 120mm macro lens with full movements and get excellent results up to and including 1:1. For macro you could use a +2 or +4 diopter for even great magnification. Just as a side note you will have to compensate for your bellows factor in closeup work. For architecture without getting wide angle bellows about 90mm would be about as wide as you would want to go. A standard lens of 180mm or even 210mm would probably work very nice for you. <br>

I have a Flickr set of 4x5 LF with the above lenses if you want to look at them and get an idea. Here is the link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/timlaytonsr/sets/72157625467051385/</p>

<p>Best of luck,</p>

<p>Tim</p>

<p> </p>

[Tony Evans]

<p>Same as Tim. Just bought the Shen-Hao from Badger and got the lenses from KEH. Very satisfied.</p>

[will_menaje]

<p>still undecided on a field camera vs. a portable monorail...<br /> what you guys (edit: and girls) think of a Plaubel Junior?</p>

<p><img src="http://photos.liveauctioneers.com/houses/auctionteambreker/2064/0742_1_lg.jpg" alt="" /></p>

[kparratt]

<p>If it has everything you need, and is well within budget I imagine, ... absolutely. I was going to mention Plaubel earlier. You may be limited with very short focus lenses, and perhaps available wide angle bellow, but that can be researched.</p>