Pocket Wizard TT1 and TT5 don't work

[douglas lee]

<p>Oops! Sorry about that. BTW, I just came home with a set for myself. Getting ready to test them. -Doug</p>

[pete_s.]

<p>Unfortunately the new PWs suffer from featuritis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Featuritis</p>

<p>They should have stuck with matching the features of CLS but with higher reliability and ease of use.<br /> Then when everything is stable and works perfectly with all cameras and flashes that are CLS capable it's time to release the product. Many people would have been very satisfied with this product.</p>

<p>After a while when they have enough feedback and the products have been in the field for real it's time to think about the nice-to-have-features and how to implement them so they are easy to use.</p>

<p>For professional use you need equipment that just works. There is no time fiddling with stuff that doesn't work and that's why their users bought the pocketwizards in the first place instead of an ebay trigger.</p>

[ian_casement]

<p>Douglas - Good for you! Enjoy your 'Peak of Inflated Expectations' as you'll very soon possibly be experiencing the 'Trough of Disillusionment' :)</p>

<p>Hype Cycle - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle</a></p>

[douglas lee]

<p>Ian, my expectations aren't really inflated. :-) I hope. I wanted radio triggers that allow me to use TTL, when I choose. I think I got that. Can't trigger additional flashes via the SU800, but I can buy more TT5s, if I need to.</p>

[frank_skomial]

<p><em>"Can't trigger additional flashes via the SU800" - </em>why can't you ? What is stopping you ? - perhaps there is a practical limit of diminishing benefit, but you can add as many CLS remote flashes as you wish.</p>

[douglas lee]

<p>Frank, how?<br>

Have you used the SU800 with the MiniFlex? What were your settings? I was not able to trigger an SB600 remotely with the SU800 installed on the MiniFlex. No problem with the SU800 on-camera. The MiniFlex appears to disable the CLS.</p>

[frank_skomial]

<p>Sorry Douglas,<br>

I took your statement out of PW context.<br>

Yes the PW does weird things to the CLS while it should not, unless they figure out how to do it to make it reliable and simple to use.</p>

<p>Perhaps remote CLS flashes under PW control should also work in Remote flash mode. Changing remote flash mode and taking over the exposure and trigering, is something that PW changed the original CLS operation but did not provide sufficiently robust or reliable substitute of both trigering and metering. Something that PW will need to work longer, to make it usable. PW does not explain the basic idea how their modified CLS into PW modes work, so perhaps they have some good idea about it, but not ready for the prime yet.</p>

[pete_s.]

<p>The pocketwizard communicates with the flash through the hotshoe. That's why the flash can't be set to Remote (where the flash communicates only optically).</p>

[ian_casement]

<p><em>Not for the prime yet...</em></p>

<p>Honest discussion of the successes and failings of these things would go a long way to getting them working properly, rather than the fire-fighting which appears to be take place after a product is wrong and the customer is on fire.</p>

<p>When I hear over enthusiastic beta-testers extoling the virtues of the latest gizmo without actually thoroughly testing it, or skirting around the problems which really do exist, and worse, find the product to be 'perfect' with no shortcomings - it just makes me see red.</p>

<p>Honestly declaring there's a problem is far better than misleading customers.</p>

[douglas lee]

<p>I am not understanding something in this discussion. TBH, I have only played around with my new Mini and 2 tt5s for an hour or so. TTL exposure appears to work as does manual flash via the PW system. That is all I bought them for. Are there advertised features that don't work? At least I don't have to put a sock on my flash! :-) -Doug</p>

[ian_casement]

<p>Not everything is done TTL, very little actually - but it's useful to have. The problem was if you just wanted to use manual flash adjusting the settings on the flashes you can't if you want to use on camera and remote flash.</p>

<p>If you fit a flash in the hotshoe of the on camera TT1 set to manual and use a remote flash set to manual flash on a TT5, you can't get both to trigger at the same time. You can only have one, or the other and there's no software switch to make this happen.</p>

<p>The knock on effect of not being able to do this is that if you're trying to sync with a multitude of other lights via slave cells in basic sync. you can't.</p>

[ian_casement]

<p>I should add that this is because the PW 'manual' implementation via ControlTL issues pre-flashes or command flashes which causes the remote slave cells to fire incorrectly.</p>

[douglas lee]

<p>OK, I understand how pre-flashes would trigger remotes early. Of course, if they were nikon remotes with SU-4 capability, I think that configuration would work.</p>

<p>As to the other "issue", you appear to be trying to use the Flex in a way for which it wasn't designed. If all of your remote flashes were attached to TT5s and the on-camera flash was attached to a MiniFlex, then could you not control all flashes in manual via the on-camera flash? Of course, the on-camera flash must be set to Master.</p>

<p>Perhaps I need to reread the thread, as I am missing something.</p>

[ian_casement]

<p>I want to just dumb down the setup to the lowest common factor of radio trigger and receiver with a flash on camera in manual and all the remotes in manual too, but it just doesn't work. I'm not trying to do anything beyond the TT1/TT5 capabilities at all, this is just basic stuff.</p>

<p>I can't guarantee that I'll be exclusively using speedlights with SU-4 mode - which would work regardless - but there may be Quantums, Lumedynes, Monolights and Studio packs all involved as well.</p>

<p>It's a shame, as I bought these instead of a set of Yongnuos to benefit from the extra features as well, but the basic radio triggering just doesn't work, so I'm back where I started.</p>

<p><strong>This from the PW Quick Guide > Manual Flash.</strong><br>

Remote Flash with or without i-TTL flash on camera<br>

-----------------------------------------------------------------<br>

1. Slide MiniTT1 Transmitter onto camera<br>

2. If desired, slide Nikon i-TTL Speedlight onto MiniTT1 radio<br>

3. Make sure all your PocketWizard radios are on the same channel and take pictures normally.<br>

<em><strong>Note:</strong> Manual remote flashes are not calculated as part of the i-TTL exposure.</em><br>

<em>Adjust your exposure of FEC to compensate accordingly.</em><br>

-----------------------------------------------------------------</p>

<p>It Doesn't Work. Either the remotes don't flash, or the on camera flash doesn't fire. It will work if you follow a workaround, but then it doesn't work again after the camera is started after it's gone into standby.</p>

[pete_s.]

<p>Ian, as I'm sure you know the setup you are trying to accomplish actually works fine with regular PWs.</p>

<p>One on camera flash in the hotshoe in manual mode or auto thyristor, one PW triggered by pc sync from the on camera flash or pc sync on the camera budy. Then a number of PW triggered flash/strobes hooked up to the hotshoe or via pc sync. And then a number of optically triggered slaves.</p>

<p>I hook my PWs to the flash with velcro. That way I can put them on stands and they will fire as slaves or if I want on camera flash I just put it in the hotshoe and attached PW will fire the slaves.</p>

[pete_s.]

<p>Here's an image showing how I hook the PWs to hotshoe flashes.</p><div></div>

[ian_casement]

<p>Yeah, I know I could use regular radios for this. I have about 16 Quantum receivers and I could easily have used those, but I'm specifically shrinking my kit and reducing mounts/cables/velcro fitting etc.. to fit more in flight cases. I don't generally use Speedlights, but the hotshoe fittings of the Flex system appealed along with the reduction of cabling. A set of Yongnuo's could do what I want and by all accounts what I want to do should be possible in triggering speedlights via their hotshoe's on these PW's, but it isn't.</p>

<p>The main problem here is getting the camera based flash working at the same time as the remotes are, nothing more. It's possible to make this happen by using a workaround but it is unreliable as it keeps on dropping out. PW just need to fix it. Until then, another workaround is needed.</p>

[douglas lee]

<blockquote>

<p><strong>This from the PW Quick Guide > Manual Flash.</strong><br /> Remote Flash with or without i-TTL flash on camera<br /> -----------------------------------------------------------------<br /> 1. Slide MiniTT1 Transmitter onto camera<br /> 2. If desired, slide Nikon i-TTL Speedlight onto MiniTT1 radio<br /> 3. Make sure all your PocketWizard radios are on the same channel and take pictures normally.<br /><em><strong>Note:</strong> Manual remote flashes are not calculated as part of the i-TTL exposure.</em><br /><em>Adjust your exposure of FEC to compensate accordingly.</em><br /> -----------------------------------------------------------------<br>

It Doesn't Work. Either the remotes don't flash, or the on camera flash doesn't fire. It will work if you follow a workaround, but then it doesn't work again after the camera is started after it's gone into standby.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You say it doesn't work, but it would if the remotes had their own TT5/PWII and you set the on-camera flash (on top of the TT1) as master. That is how it is designed to work, no?</p>

[ian_casement]

<p>It doesn't work. It works using a flash as a master, but I'm not wanting that. I want Manual.</p>

<p>I can get what I want by using a workaround which allows a manual flash on camera and manual flashes on remote TT5's, but that's unreliable. I does work, and the system is capable of supporting it, but it doesn't maintain sync.</p>

<p>If I have remote flashes on TT5's set to Manual and nothing on the TT1 on camera - what's commanding them - apart from nothing? Then with that already working, I should be able to just put a flash on the TT1 and trigger that it in Manual too.. but I can't.</p>

[ian_casement]

<p>This from here on Fickr: <a href="http://www.flickr.com/groups/pocketwizards/discuss/72157625949418449/#comment72157626119982144">http://www.flickr.com/groups/pocketwizards/discuss/72157625949418449/#comment72157626119982144</a><br>

<em>I got a reply from PW:</em><br /><br /></p>

<blockquote><em>Hi Brett,</em><br /><br /><em>Thanks for your inquiry. I've had some experience using a setup similar to what you've described, but not specifically using Cybersyncs. With the default settings, a MiniTT1 or FlexTT5 on-camera should trigger a flash or other device with only the center sync pin regardless of the shutter speed. I can confirm that a MiniTT1 attached to our D3 will trigger one of our Plus II or MultiMAX radios attached to the top shoe at any shutter speed. Those radios are triggered in a way very similar to any kind of "dumb" radio trigger.</em><br /><br /><em>To troubleshoot further: <strong>Do you have a manual flash with a hot shoe you could try in place of the Cybersync? If it works, that'll tell us it's something specific to the Cybersync transmitter causing the issue.</strong></em></blockquote>

<p><br />Even PW are saying a simple pin and rail sync should work ! Something is definately wrong.</p>

<p>.</p>

[douglas lee]

<p>From my basic knowledge of the system. If you want to shoot manual flash, you must have one of the following in the TT1 on the camera, AC3,SU800,SB900. I guess an SB800 would work, too. Not sure. The on-camera flash/SU800 must be set to master. Each remote flash must be attached to a TT5. The remote flashes (SB900,800,700,600) should be set to on (not master, not slave) and in TTL mode.<br>

Then, via the on-camera flash,SU800 or AC3, you set/control the 3 groups and master flash (if desired). They can be set to TTL or manual. If you are trying to trigger other flashes via a slave unit, it won't work. If you set the on-camera flash to other than master, it won't work (consistently, per your experience.)</p>

<p>So, in my example, the system works as intended. In your situation, it doesn't work, but it wasn't designed to work that way. If it did, that would be great. But, to say the system is faulty, is a stretch, IMHO.</p>

<p>I just got back from my local shop with an AC3 and another TT5. I hope to play with them tomorrow. I have two SB900s and 2 Sb600s plus an SU800. Got to go to work so i can pay for the new PW stuff!</p>

[ian_casement]

<p>There's a Wiki on the PW website on the Nikon TT1/TT5 which lists all sorts of things which don't work. It's surprising how many of these are specific to an SB900 on and off camera, including things which I've directly discovered. You only need to look at these and wonder why one flash works and why another doesn't ? This sort of thing should just not occur, especially when you rely on continuity between all sorts of different lighting equipment. You don't expect to swap an SB800 for an SB900 because the SB900 doesn't work, or to employ a workaround to make that SB900 work.</p>

[ian_casement]

<p>Wiki here: http://wiki.pocketwizard.com/index.php?title=Nikon_Compatibility</p>

[paul_k1664875007]

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=3914031">Ian Casement</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"></a>, Feb 23, 2011; 12:34 p.m.</p>

<p>"Quote" It doesn't work. It works using a flash as a master, but I'm not wanting that. I want Manual.<br /> I can get what I want by using a workaround which allows a manual flash on camera and manual flashes on remote TT5's, but that's unreliable. I does work, and the system is capable of supporting it, but it doesn't maintain sync.<br /> If I have remote flashes on TT5's set to Manual and nothing on the TT1 on camera - what's commanding them - apart from nothing? Then with that already working, I should be able to just put a flash on the TT1 and trigger that it in Manual too.. but I can't. "unquote"</p>

<p>Hi Ian</p>

<p>I have been following this thread and your repeated complaints about the TT5 with interest, but I must admit I'm kind of lost on what your complaining about. So this morning I did some additional tests to the ones I did before in all kind of different set ups to find out myself (rather then reading what other people say they read)</p>

<p>Tech info : D3, 24-85 zoom, SB 800 (master), 2x SB 600 (remote mode OFF), Hensel 500 Economy (monobloc) with built in photocell (so cheapo optical trigger) 3x TT5 (oncamera C1, Ch A, remote nr 1 C1, Ch A, remote 2 C1, Ch B)</p>

<p>Set up 1: D3 with TT5 (no flash mounted) ,off camera remote 1 with SB600 M 1/16, off camera remote 2 with SB600 M 1/8<br /> Result: remotes work, but settings on the SB600's dont influence the output. I could not check it with my LunasixF (empty battery after years of not using it) but it seems to me output is full power so M 1/1</p>

<p>Set up 2: D3 with TT5 with SB800 (Master) M Manual 1/64, A Manual 1/32, B Manual 1/32, off camera remote 1 Ch A with SB600 M 1/16, off camera 2 Ch B with SB600 M 1/8<br /> Result: SB 800 M 1/64 on camera works (also at higher settings), but setting on the SB 800 nor on the sB600's dont influence the output of the remotes. They keep blasting away at full power so M 1/1</p>

<p>Set up 3: D3 with TT5 with SB800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu M Manual 1/64, A Manual 1/32, B Manual 1/32, off camera remote 1 Ch A with SB600 TTL, off camera 2 Ch B with SB600 TTL<br /> Result: SB 800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu M 1/64 works (also at higher settings), remotes work according to Manual settings from Master Steering menu</p>

<p>Set up 4: D3 with TT5 with SB800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu M M 1/64, A Manual 1/32, B Manual 1/32, off camera remote 1 Ch A with SB600 TTL, off camera remote 2 Ch B with SB600 TTL, Hensel 500 Economy 1/4 power (optical trigger)<br /> Result: SB 800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu M Manual 1/64 works (also at higher or lower Manual settings), remotes work according to Manual settings from Master Steering menu, Hensel Economy 500 works (max 1/250) as the M setting of the Master prevents any of the Nikon flash units from sending pre flashes</p>

<p>Set up 5: D3 with TT5 with SB800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu M M 1/64, A TTL, B TTL, off camera remote 1 Ch A with SB600 TTL, off camera remote 2 Ch B with SB600 TTL, Hensel 500 Economy 1/4 power (optical trigger)<br /> Result: SB 800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu M M 1/64 works (also at higher or lower Manual settings), remotes work according to TTL settings from Master steering menu, Hensel Economy 500 does not works (probably off synch due to TTL pre flash from the remote Nikon flash units)</p>

<p>Set up 6: D3 with TT5 with SB800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu M TTL, A TTL, B TTL, off camera remote 1 Ch A with SB600 M 1/16, off camera remote 2 Ch B with SB600 M 1/8, Hensel 500 Economy 1/4 power(optical trigger)<br /> Result: (as could be expected from the results of set up 2) SB 800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu TTL works (also at higher or lower TTL settings), remotes work do not according to TTL settings from Master Steering menu nor Manual setting on the units themselves but give full power flashes, Hensel Economy 500 does not work (probably off synch due to TTL pre flash from the master and remote Nikon flash units)</p>

<p>Set up 7: D3 with TT5 with SB800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu M TTL, A TTL, B TTL, off camera remote 1 with SB600 Ch A TTL, off camera remote 2 with SB600 Ch B TTL, Hensel 500 Economy 1/4 power<br /> Result: (as could be expected from the results of set up 4) SB 800 (Master) with settings from the Master steering menu TTL works (also at higher or lower TTL settings), remotes work according to TTL settings from Master Steering menu, Hensel Economy 500 does not work (probably off synch due to TTL pre flash from the remote Nikon flash units)</p>

<p>Set up 8: D3 with TT5 ( no SB800 as Master) , off camera remote 2 Ch B with SB600 M 1/8, Hensel 500 Economy 1/4 power(optical trigger)<br />Result: (as could be expected from the results of set up 2) Remotes work do not according to Manual setting on the units themselves but give full power flashes, Hensel Economy 500 does work ( as to be expected since there is no pre remote Nikon flash units)</p>

<p>It seems to me I covered all of the situations/set ups possible including some you mentioned ( or I think you mentioned), and I can't find any fault.</p>

<p>Important though seem whether you use a setting on the master or remote Nikon flash causing or avoiding pre flash (TTL seems the culprit) and whether you have set Nikon remotes at TTL (or they will blow away on full power no matter what). In the above settings steering the settings on camera flash from the Master menu are in my experience fool proof to avoid the on camera SB800 or other remote Nikon flashes to emit any preflashes</p>

<p>When using Manual ( all Nikon flash units steered from the Master flash unit as Manual) optical triggers have no problems as there is no preflash ( so no SU-4 thingies needed). You probably will find something to complain about that the PW's might not work with other brand radio triggers but having no experience with the cheapo eBay radio triggers of Radiopoppers I have no personal experience with that so can't comment</p>

<p>Just for fun I also did some tests with the AC3 instead of a flash on the oncamera TT5. In line with the above, if the AC3 is set on M ( one of the three settings of the on top swithches) the Hensel will flash in synch, if set on TTL the Hensel does not work in synch, (probably off synch due to TTL pre flash from the remote Nikon flash units)</p>

<p>Seems the problems you have might be user error, or problems with the SB900, or maybe too high expectations and using them in a way they were not intended for (although my test set ups IMHO cover most of them). I would therefor welcome to hear from some one who did some tests with the above set-ups, using a SB900 instead of a SB800. (I won't be buying a SB 900 due to size and because the SB800's serve my purposes well, and sometimes can be had secondhand for astonishingly low price while still in very good condition)</p>

<p>But my conclusion for the moment is the TT5's do work ( no experience with the TT1)<br /> My two cents</p>

<p> </p>

[paul_k1664875007]

<p>BTW camera settings were 1/25oth at F8.</p>

<p>I didn't try the Cybersynch or whatever it's called as I always use FP synch with my Nikon units and am not likely to use any other brand of flash units shooting at higher shutter speeds</p>

<p>Paul</p>