Sudden dip in clients when I featured gay couple...

[William Michael]

<p> . . . on a ligther note: some Kid's Parties have appeared to me, as tough as a Cage Fight.</p>

 

[kevin_delson]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm not removing the images.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sounds like a business decision to me.<br>

We all rise or fall on our decisions; right, wrong or indifferent.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>If a client is going to not hire me based on that chances are we probably won't jive well together and do I really want to enter into that kind of contract with them?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>If I were to pick and choose only clients I like or get along well with, my income would be cut in half.</p>

[zack_zoll]

<blockquote>

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=4564852">Mike Hitchen</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub3.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/1roll.gif" alt="" /></a>, Feb 07, 2011; 06:58 p.m.</p>

</blockquote>

 

<blockquote>

<p>If a client is going to not hire me based on that chances are we probably won't jive well together<br>

Why is this relevant? Are you in the habit of discussing gay rights (or politics, or religion...) during a photoshoot? It sounds like what negotiators call 'rationalisation' - you are avoiding addressing the true <em>business</em> issue (recovering your business activity) by justifying the situation with an irrelevant argument (your clients beliefs). <br /> But it is an almighty assumption that the pictures are the cause of the business drop off; but if it is true, it means that the sort of people you refer to made up a significant part of your clientele in the past and you didn't know and cared even less. Go figure.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Mike, there is a LARGE difference between what is relevant and what should be relevant. The American public (and for that matter the French, Russian, Chinese, Argentinian, etc.) will by and large make a decision based on what they like or how they feel. If you need an example, I'd direct you to the entire marketing industry. Where I live, I can promise you that people's perceptions make a large difference. You don't need to like your clients, but your clients absolutely need to like you. It doesn't take a genius to see why people that are against gay marriage wouldn't hire Ella to shoot their wedding. If she doesn't believe in the sanctity of marriage, then she obviously doesn't have any respect for the process and will probably do a terrible job. It's not a big leap to picture a client thinking this way.</p>

<p>In the future, I'd remember that your website should show the clients you want, and not the clients you have. If you feature gay couples, you'll get hired to shoot more gay couples. This is not necessarily a bad thing. However, you may find that putting gay, non-Christian, or interracial couples or services on your site causes you to lose business from Conservative WASPy couples.</p>

<p>You could try asking couples how they feel about it too. Tell them, "Look, I shoot mostly people that oppose gay weddings. I have no problem with it, and I'd be happy to shoot your wedding, but I do have a business to run. If it's okay with you, I'd like to refrain from putting any of your photos on my website until it's a little more common." Some people will be okay with that, and some will be offended. Good luck.</p>

<p>The last two paragraphs obviously only matter if money is your main goal. Which is okay - a job's a job. But if you're strapped for cash, maybe now isn't the time to make a social stand yet.</p>

 

[bojepsen1]

<p>I applaud what you are doing, Ella, and think your course of action truly correct. I am neither a businessman nor a professional photographer, but there must be a market for standing up for your beliefs somewhere.</p>

[ella_swanson]

<p>Thank you for all the responses. I'm sure everyone has had these moments where you mostly have made up your mind about a situation but wanted to gauge the public.</p>

<p>I realize now that my argument that I wouldn't want a client who would reject me based on one image is a moot point. I would probably never run into a situation where I would learn their political leanings, I'm not someone who talks about politics at all. It's just useful to get more varied opinions on the matter because after living in Chelsea (NYC) your ideas of what is the norm are considerably altered. It's such a bubble.</p>

<p>I'm not trying to stand on a soapbox here. Just asking for people's opinions. Thank you.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>It doesn't take a genius to see why people that are against gay marriage wouldn't hire Ella to shoot their wedding. If she doesn't believe in the sanctity of marriage</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Total disconnect. What one thinks about gay marriage has nothing to do with the "sanctity of marriage."</p>

 

 

 

<blockquote>

<p>If I were to pick and choose only clients I like or get along well with, my income would be cut in half.</p>

</blockquote>

 

 

<p>It's not about you. Plenty of clients pick photographers they don't necessarily agree with on certain issues. They should pick them because they do a good job. It's not like Ella is saying she's going to carry a picket sign to a wedding.</p>

[kevin_delson]

<blockquote>

<p>It's not about you. Plenty of clients pick photographers they don't necessarily agree with on certain issue</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Total disconnect Jeff. You misunderstood my statement.</p>

<p>I don't choose my clients based on political beliefs, social commentary or the way they look.<br>

I am hired to do a job.</p>

<p>I will say there <strong>are</strong> fences I won't cross.</p>

<p>..and by the way, it is about me, my income and my lifestyle.<br>

That does not mean I don't deliver to my client what they need & want; I do.</p>

<p>...and just to clear the record, I do choose my clients, we all do; anything less is either prostitution or desperation.</p>

[zack_zoll]

<p>Jeff, you're wrong: there's no disconnect there in my sentence. I think every rationally-minded person agrees that there SHOULD be a disconnect there, but in all reality there isn't one in many people's minds. Even though most people would not think that photographing gay couples -> supporting gay marriage -> underminding the sanctity of marriage -> bad wedding photographer, the fact is that in many, MANY parts of the United States (including where I am from), this is indeed how a lot of people think. I wouldn't say that a majority thinks this way by any means, but I would say that enough people think this way that one would want to be careful about which buttons one pushes if you're using this as your sole income.</p>

<p>Mayoral hopefuls in New York City get flak from people for rooting for the Mets over the Yankees (who are also a NY team, last time I checked), or Buffalo over the Giants. If the general public can't even refrain from judging people based on the sports teams they like, I think you're expecting an awful lot to think no one will judge someone based on a cultural, political, and possibly even religious reason.</p>

<p>Personally, if it were my site, I would only put up photos of gay couples if I also had photos if minority couples or non-Christian services, or at least a few gay couples. A single gay couple isn't enough to show you as a diverse and equal-opportunity shooter, but it is enough to upset Upstate or Western New Yorkers. Trust me ... I live in Upstate New York, there have been advertisements I've run with mixed-race couples that got me phone calls about how I just lost business. And those are the people that were outraged enough to actually call!</p>

[christopher_m]

<p>I think there are two things at play:</p>

<p>1. I think more people are open to the idea of gay unions, as written on paper, but to see a photo of it is another thing. I imagine if you took a poll, "Do you think being gay should be allowed by law" you would get a yes rate of 95%, but if you asked "Would you want to see two gay guys kiss" you would get a yes rate of 10%.</p>

<p>2. It may not be that the people are instantly turned off by your photo, but if a couple is choosing between you and another photographer who has similar quality and price, it could be the deciding factor between you two.</p>

[eddymendoza]

Ella, you are correct when you say where you live alters your way of thinking and in this case your business. I live in a

very conservative state and work mostly in a very liberal state and how I conduct myself in one does not work well in

the other. How's that for difficult? But, I do it all the time. You see in business you have to be very diplomatic and as

long as you don't have to bend your core values too much you should be okay. Does Mc Donald restaurant or Burger

King turn down business simply because they dont like your position in politics?

 

You don't have to be gay to shoot a gay wedding you just have to be a good photographer that's all. Like one poster

said, if you have to click with all of your clients to work for them you'll be out of business pretty soon.

 

Anyways, good luck!

 

Ed

[simon_crofts]

<p>I think you have to do what you think in life is right. Whenever I found myself faced with two choices, one was what seemed the right thing to do, and the other one was the sensible one, I always followed the non-sensible, right one, and never regretted it.</p>

<p>To me, it is mind boggling that there seem to be so many who might have a problem with it, and as for</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I've run with mixed-race couples that got me phone calls about how I just lost business</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I am speechless that that could happen. Would you really want the money of people who thought like that, and even less want to photograph their wedding, I would feel dirty. If you want to look at it as a business decision, there are other ways to make money in life. If life was just a business decision, I'd still be a lawyer.</p>

<p>We happily included photos from a gay wedding on our blog, and also included a selection of the photos in our printed portfolio we show to clients. As far as I can make out, clients seem to like it, find it interesting, and I think it helps encourage more intelligent and interesting clients. So far no one has betrayed any visibly negative reaction, generally the reaction is to look at the pictures with interest. Either way, they book. I think most people positively like it and seem interested.</p>

 

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>I may be presumptuous in thinking the problem isn't at all my fault, but I've noticed a drastic fall in <strong>the number of people booking me</strong> for weddings after I posted a gay engagement shoot on my blog and website . . . I wanted to get someone else's opinion on this. <br />[i.e. opinions on <em>“the drop off in the number of people booking me.”]</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>“I'm not trying to stand on a soapbox here. Just asking for people's opinions. Thank you.”</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yep, I understand that. I understood it the first time around. But in your reply you have not addressed my question, implied:<br />Have you noticed a drop off in INQUIRES . . . (and your conversion rate)?</p>

<p>I am interested in your answer and more information regarding the situation because I am interested in your question and the possible reasons for the situation you outline: and I too am not interested in standing on any soap box – but again from the response it seems the situation (fall off in bookings) is not being addressed; but rather ad hoc attempts and ducking and weaving are happening to attribute a reason, for that fall-off.</p>

<p>My point is, if you want a to address the fall off in the Wedding BOOKINGS your business is making, there is no place for soapboxes, More importantly, there is no place for defending the fact that one is NOT standing on a soap box. These elements are: Clutter. And it is easy to make Clutter an answer and then make “business decisions” based upon that answer of Cluitter . . . only then to go on defend the business decision, with the very same Clutter.</p>

<p>To the point of the OP again, definitively:<br>

<br />What are your inquiry numbers? Over what period? Any other changes to the website apart from the new Images? What’s the difference in your conversion rate? Etc . . .</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p> </p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>WW....apparrently the interest here is the soapbox, not the actual numbers, data, or the business issues.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Gidday David,</p>

<p>I noticed that the main thrust of your original response was the same as mine - "what is the data" “how many inquiries”, “how many conversions”, "leave the emotion outside if you want to do business thinking" . . . etc.</p>

<p>Apparently we were having the similar thoughts, at the same time, as indicated by the times of our first postings in this thread.</p>

<p>What I would NOT like to happen, is that the OP mistakes my (and your) perseverance on this issue of data and business focus, to be mistaken for argument and / or having emotive content.</p>

<p>Previously, my lack of emotion and the literal writing style of responses, have been mistaken for emotion and indeed me having a soapbox . . . ironic. </p>

<p>WW</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>not the actual numbers, data</p>

</blockquote>

<p>We can probably take the OP's word for it that there has been a fall off in activity. Knowing whether it's a big fall or a small-ish fall might be interesting, but why do you need to know actual numbers? Yes, the OP should consider the possibility that the drop off in activity is wholly or partly caused by something else. Unless you can interview some would-be clients who were put off ad are willing to say honestly why, you will never prove what is causing the dip.</p>

<p>The more interesting point is that the OP believes that the fall off may have been caused by these images, and others on this thread seem to believe that it is credible that it might be. That in itself is enough to justify the discussion of the main issue, which is an interesting and important one.</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p><em><strong>The more interesting point is that the OP believes that the fall off may have been caused by these images, </strong></em>and others on this thread seem to believe that it is credible that it might be. That in itself is enough to justify the discussion of the main issue, which is an interesting and important one.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Agree, Simon.<br />And that is exactly what I have been stressing: “<em>the OP </em><strong><em>believes</em></strong><em> that the fall off may have been caused by these images”</em><br /><em></em><br />Yes, interviewing people is nonsense, agreed.</p>

<p>Yes, having a broader discussion on the topic is nice, but off the main topic as the question was asked.<br>

It is a business question.<br>

Yes the question touches on what stand we each should take into our business profile and to discuss thta element and gather opinions on particular social issues is fine and proper, (IMHO).<br />BUT - if this discussion is to in anyway address the fall-off in BOOKINGS (again not “activity” or “numbers of inquires”), then it is poor protocol to <strong><em>assume</em></strong> that the posting of the “Gay Marriage” images on the website, is the cause of the bookings drop-off and then to go around in circles, harnessing opinions and discussing how that could be the fact of the matter. Such is very limiting method to find what the REAL cause(s) of the BOOKING drop-off.</p>

<p>As per my first post, <strong><em>as well as</em></strong> looking at Inquiry Numbers and Conversion Rates: other matters need to be investigates: the <strong><em>protocol</em></strong> of the Initial Sales Meeting; indentifying any <strong><em>change of attitude</em></strong> brought to that meeting, by the Photographer.<br />The latter is an area which warrants investigation, because the OP is initially of the belief that their action (posting the images) is a reason for bookings dropping-off and subsequently is insistent upon the same, not being a soap box.<br />These are key areas which can be investigated, without very much work, at all.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[savagesax]

Some studios, including ours use a different studio name and advertise in some of the gay magazines.

 

I think you may wish to keep a different phone line as well.