Color balance or vibrance/clarity?

[lisae]

<p>I can't decide if this picture has a color balance problem or just needs more clarity/vibrance. I shot it in raw with my Nikon D5000 and an SB-600 (which I think was set to TTL, probably bounced off the ceiling). I think the kitchen has the standard fluorescent kitchen lights. This picture is the "as shot" color balance, which is (4800, +4). I think the faces look a little washed out but if I warm them up, my kids' hair looks too yellow. I've tried using the dropper tool on several different things, but nothing seems right. (I increased the exposure slightly and converted it to jpg to upload here.)</p>

<p>Everyone wants me to take pictures of family events, and I'm happy to do it, but I'm really struggling with white balance indoors. I've looked at this picture so much that I can't even see it anymore. Maybe that's part of the problem. :)</p><div></div>

[michael_young3]

<p>Push down the mid-tones. Sample the snowman for neutral.</p>

<p>(10 second fix. Open it in Photoshop. Levels. Drag the midtone slider to .63. Click the midtone eyedropper. Sample the snowman.)</p>

<p>PPS. The best $100 you'll ever spend:</p>

<p>http://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-MSCCPP-ColorChecker-Passport/dp/B002NU5UW8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1295926304&sr=8-1</p>

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[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Looks perfect to me considering the mixed lighting of fill flash in front and fluorescent on top. Better than I get with my DSLR even shooting Raw.</p>

<p>I don't see washed out skin tones just not as saturated and bit on the pink side with the kids and the elderly lady's skin looks as you'ld expect. It does look very accurate to what I've seen of skin tone look like in this type of lighitng.</p>

<p>Don't know what Raw software you're using but if you have a Hue, Saturation, Luminance adjuster, you can adjust the Red Hue to get rid of the pink skin and increase the orange and yellow Saturation and reduce their Luminance and just play around.</p>

<p>Or forget all the above and just reduce the Exposure slider and see what happens. Usually when I do that the HSL all falls into place.</p>

<p>Michael, just saw your treatment and it's way over saturated. Don't know if you see this.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>I just did what I suggested to show how you can fix it. Do this on the Raw file.</p><div></div>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Here's more tweaking to the HSL panel to get rid of the yellow in the hair and pink in the skin.</p>

<p>I embedded the ACR edits. If you have Bridge or Lightroom, you can see the edits there or upload to flickr and click on "Properties"</p><div></div>

[AlanKlein]

<p>THis is my take on it. But everyone has their opinion. Why not just slide the sliders until you're happy and then move on. You're getting too intense. No one else is going to notice, expecially your family. They're all going to think it's a great shot, and it is. Alan.</p><div></div>

[michael_young3]

<p>Hi, Tim. What the heck? Yes, mine looks simply awful. I don't remember it looking that bad before I posted, but I've done worse. :D</p>

<p>Lisa, the problem here is the mixed lighting. Window green gel on the flash should help quite a bit with the fluorescents. CTO helps in incandescent. Halogens need a bit more; a full CTO and a half CTO gets it close.</p>

 

[lisae]

<p>"You're getting too intense. No one else is going to notice, expecially your family."</p>

<p>Alan, I thought I was supposed to agonize over this! Isn't that how I show my commitment to photography? :) (Thanks for your kind words. This picture is of my mother-in-law and she is so thrilled to have pictures that I'm trying to do my best.)</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. They are very, very helpful. One of the reasons I've been working and working is that I feel like I'm learning a lot about what all those different sliders do. (I'm using LR3.) Plus, I'm learning to see the light and the colors better. When I have more time tomorrow I'm going to go back and try all of your suggestions.</p>

<p>Michael, the color checker is actually in my Amazon cart, just haven't bought it yet because I'm still working on my list. I'm also planning to purchase some gels and a couple of other basic flash accessories in the next few weeks. Thanks for the specifics.</p>

[michael_young3]

<p>You're all set, then, Lisa. Some great tools, and with Tim looking over your shoulder, you're well on your way.</p>

 

[jacopo_brembati]

<p>Lisa,<br>

I think indoor photos have to preserve the mood, so a little warmer look may improve the rendition.</p>

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[tom_mann1]

 

<p>Lisa, IMHO, Tim's comments are right on the mark. The color balance of the version you posted is astonishingly good considering that it is mixed lighting. Tim's comments about just a tad too much magenta in the faces are what I see as well.</p>

<p>However, I see two other areas of concern. First, you've got a visually confusing background. Your subjects need to be shown in their environment, but they should stand out from it more than they do. Second, the tonal values / contrast in your image is not optimal.</p>

<p>Attached is my suggestion for a direction to go in images like this. IMHO, most non-photographers won't even notice small improvements in the color balance, but, OTOH, almost everyone will notice almost any lighting / brightness / contrast improvement.</p>

<p>Just my $0.02,</p>

<p>Tom M</p>

 

<div></div>

[paddler4]

<p>Re WB: In situations like this, I always carry a neutral gray card (I use a whibal), and I ask someone to hold it near their face while I take a shot. You can do this a few times if the lighting is varied. Since you are in LR anyway, shoot raw, adjust WB with the gray card using the eyedropper, adjust to taste, and then copy that WB to all the shots. You may need to adjust a few, but doing it this way, most of them will be very close with a few seconds work. I find that I still sometimes need to do further adjusting, depending on the lighting, but you can always copy that adjustment too.</p>

[lisae]

<p>Jacobo, Tom, and Dan M, thanks for your additional comments. I think you got to the heart of what was bothering me. And I especially agree with the need to work on tonal values/contrast. I think that's what was bothering me the most. I'm very pleased because I feel like I'm beginning to see and put words to the things that I want to improve.</p>

<p>Dan M, I have an additional question about the gray card. I have one but don't usually use it for these kinds of pictures (which are basically just snap shots). Family events at my in-laws are very typical. They are not used to someone trying to take pictures - it rarely happens in their family - and it never occurs to them to wait for me to get set up. I'm happy if I get 10 seconds to put my camera to my eye and compose the shot. How do you manage to get people to wait while you take a white balance shot, which can disrupt the flow of the celebration (and which is more important to them than the pictures)? Maybe the solution is to sneak in and take my gray card shot while they are chatting with the grandkids? :) </p>

[tom_mann1]

<p>Hi Lisa -</p>

<p>There are at least two ways to do what you are asking about using a grey card. </p>

<p>a) First is the case in which you are shooting JPGs and don't want to get involved in any post processing: Most cameras allow you to set the white balance manually and store several of these settings. You can shoot the white balance shots in several key locations before the event starts and then switch between them as you are shooting.</p>

<p>b) Second is the case where you are shooting RAW files and are comfortable with Photoshop or Lightroom: In this case, take white balance shots whenever convenient (so long as the light hasn't changed), and then use the "color balance" eyedropper in ACR to record those WB settings and then transfer them to those shots taken in that area. </p>

<p>In both cases, make sure that the grey card is at the same height as the face of the main subject in the photo, pointed in the same direction as the face, and that the light hasn't changed in the interim. </p>

<p>HTH,</p>

<p>Tom M</p>

[jacopo_brembati]

<p>Lisa,<br>

if you want to use a graycard, you can put it where you will shot and take a photo.<br>

But you are using flash.<br>

Flash is good for light increase, but a little bad for color temperature.<br>

Balancing colors on graycard results in a cold rendition, much more "daylight" than "indoor".<br>

This was you get from camera white balance.<br>

So starting from graycard balance it's no far different from starting from camera balance.</p>

 

[lisae]

<p>Tom, thanks. It really hadn't occurred to me that I could take the white balance shot after the event. That seems sort of obvious, doesn't it? I think that's probably the best solution at my in-laws house. I can usually get one of my kids to hold the gray card for me so I'll do that next time.</p>

<p>Jacobo, are you saying that using flash will confuse the gray card balance? Even if I use the flash when I take my gray card shot? I can see where varying the power of the flash from the gray card scene to the real scene (which could happen using TTL) would make a difference in white balance.</p>

[jacopo_brembati]

<blockquote>

<p>Jacobo, are you saying that using flash will confuse the gray card balance? Even if I use the flash when I take my gray card shot?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Using flash, the color temperature of the illuminant is much more the flash color temperature than the ambient light.<br>

I said you get more a daylight shot than indoor shot.<br>

That is what happened to your shot, more or less.<br>

The same, or very similar, cold appearence will be generated using a graycard.</p>

<p>Think to a sunset shot.<br>

If you neutralize the color temperature your shot is no more a sunset shot.</p>

<p>Graycard may be useful to neutralize green/magenta cast coming from illuminants very different from blackbody (sun or incandescent light).<br>

But to avoid the "daylight mood", after white balance using graycard, you have to change color temperature.</p>

<p>Jacopo</p>

[tom_mann1]

<p>The question of whether you want neutral colors or warm colors in an image is highly personal. It depends on the use and intent of the image, the personal preferences of the photographer, the expectations of the audience, matching to related images, consistency of colors within the image / mixed lighting, etc.</p>

<p>Jacopo seems to like indoor scenes to be warmed up a bit. Generally, I prefer a more neutral color balance, even indoors. Even if I know that the final product needs to be warm, I will usually first take the image to neutral, and then warm it up after achieving a neutral balance. The reason for this is that it's much easier to make sure that all the colors and tonal values are rendering in reasonable relationships when viewing an image with neutral color balance compared to attempting to do the same on an image bathed in an orange color cast.</p>

<p>Finally, be aware that a truly neutral color balance (ie, gray objects in the image all have equal RGB values) is perceived by many viewers as much too cool because many/most viewers use uncalibrated monitors with an out-of-the-box native color temp around 9000 K ! Laptop screens are particularly notorious for doing this. Of course, one could attempt to adjust all one's images for this "average monitor" phenomena, but then, when such an image is viewed on a proper monitor, or printed using the proper printer profile in a color managed workflow, such images are guaranteed to look much too warm.</p>

<p>In the final analysis, Jen, it is entirely up to you whether you aim for a neutral, slightly warm, or really warm color balance.</p>

<p>HTH,</p>

<p>Tom M</p>

[jacopo_brembati]

<blockquote>

<p>Jacopo seems to like indoor scenes to be warmed up a bit.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Jacopo likes what visual system "see": indoor scenes are a bit warm to human eyes.</p>

 

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Lisa, just my 2¢, but if you're going to be shooting Raw in mixed lighting with a fill flash, I wouldn't worry about messing with a gray card.</p>

<p>Just set your WB to Auto and if the camera has a WB metering setting like matrix or center point, set it to matrix which meters for the entire scene. I don't know what settings you used on the shot you posted but that's about the best you're going to get in mixed lighting and fill flash. Just go with whatever settings you used in that shot and fix in post.</p>

<p>You're going to have to fix in post trying to correct it using a gray card anyway because what you neutralize for one color temp of light you'll mess up the others where you may have someone in the background totally blue, green or red. You just might be lucky letting the camera decide. At least in Raw it's not hard to correct for WB, not so easy for jpegs.</p>

[lisae]

<p>Jacobo, Tom, and Tim: thanks again. I think I'm getting it. I have some pictures taken here in my kitchen with a gray card. I'm going to pull those up and look at them, applying what you said and see if I can tell a difference between using the gray card or not. I'm getting better at seeing the different tones in a picture, but sometimes I can't sort it out (like in the one I posted).</p>

<p>Also, I just bought the Martin Evening Lightroom book. I'm hoping it will give more explanation (or theory, if that's the right word?) for handling these problems.</p>