Beginner questions about post processing

[c._s.2]

<p>I just ordered Photoshop Elements 7 from Ebay, along with the book. I am planning on teaching myself what I can between the book and online tutorials. To you experienced photogs,- What is the true difference between Photoshop Elements and Photoshop...and Lightroom? I have not found any basic information describing the differences and true uses for these programs. I just thought I would order PE for $22 and start there before I tried to delve into Photoshop....and what exactly is a "workflow program?" Thanks so much for any info.:)</p>

[jason_hall5]

<p>Photoshop CS5 is about as powerful of image editing software on the market. As even an advanced photographer (and photographer only), you would likely never use half of what it has to offer. The main power of Photoshop (for the photographer) is the ability to work in layers. But for many, that alone justifies the price.</p>

<p>Elements is a striped down version and lacks that most important part...Layers. Its just a general photo editing software. It works well I guess, but with out Layers, its pointless for me.</p>

<p>Lightroom is what you would call a "workflow program". It is a file management software also. So you don't pick a photo and open it up in Lightroom. Rather you import your file structure into lightroom and it then will place the photos into its catalog. Even if copy a photo into a certain file, lightroom will not see it until you import it into the catalog. The change you make to a photo in lightroom is not applied to the actual file. Rather they are placed in a sidecar file and only applied while looking at the image in lightroom. If you need the image for the web or to send to a print lab, you then can export a copy with the edits applied to it while the original file is left completely untouched and unchanged. This preserves the quality of the image. So no change you make is permanent to the original image. This is called non distructive editing. It also lacks layers, so I have Photoshop CS.</p>

<p>You can download a free copy and try it for 30 days at the Adobe web site.</p>

<p>Jason</p>

[c._s.2]

<p>Thanks for the info...a couple of questions though...You can download which program for 30 days? <br>

another question....I did a search about photoshop elements, and it appears that you can, in fact, work with layers in that program? I am sure you know better than me, of course. I just want to know more about the benefits and good things that Photoshop elements has to offer, and the good things that photoshop has to offer.--- what are the best and most used features of the 2 programs? Do I understand that the significance of a workflow program like lightroom is the organizational feature? THANKS!</p>

[AlanKlein]

<p>As you've discovered, Elements does have layers. I'm using Elements 8, but 7 is fine too, especially the price. As a beginner, you'll get pretty much everything you'll need from Elements. Please check my portfolio on this site. Every photo was adjusted in some way with Elements although I have to admit I'm not using layers yet. I stick to the basics. I adjust lighting and color, level if not straight, crop for composition, sharpen, remove spots on my scanned photos, and reduce size for posting on the web or not reducing but printing on photo paper.</p>

<p>Elements is extremely powerful. Try it.</p>

[mike_hitchen]

<p>Elements does have layers - one thing that PSE7 lacks is layer masks. Layers allow you to make 'global' changes to an image without affecting the original pitcure; layer masks enable you to make changes to specific parts of an image. However, you can easily get the quivalent of layer masks with a well-known short series of keystrokes. But layer masks have now been introduced to Elements 9.</p>

<p>The cataloging function in all Elements versions is pretty powerful but this is one of the strengths of Lightroom when you want to managing gazillions of pictures. If you get PSE first and Lightroom later, all the cataloging done in Elements will be transferred so not all would be lost. Lightroom also has powerful tools for making adjustments to groups of photographs so simplifying post processing.</p>

<p>Photoshop is more of a total publishing program with many functions I doubt you will ever need. Many professonals seem to get by with Lightroom and Elements without even touching Photoshop but I recommend you worry about that once you now what Elements can do.</p>

[jon_robert]

<p>Elements is used for what most people need. Photoshop is used for what pro graphics people need like Disney for example etc. Likewise most people don't want to spend countless hours alone or as a team trying to get the software figured out on how to do something while elements can be used with hardly any effort for a large number of users.<br>

I take 2500 photos at a single wedding and have no need for anything other than elements (I use 5.0) Don't be thrown off by terms such as "limitations" etc. It is like referring to the limitations of a sedan when taking about sports cars. To the vast majority these "limitations" are really handicaps. Like the terrible gas millage and high strung characteristics of a sports car when all that is wanted is a back and forth to work car. Keep that in mind when reading about the "limitations" and "deficiencies" of elements.</p>

<p>Wiki can tell you the stat sheet type stuff<br>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Photoshop</p>

<p>"<strong>Adobe Photoshop Elements</strong> is the consumer version of the <a title="Adobe Photoshop" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Photoshop">Adobe Photoshop</a> <a title="Raster image" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raster_image">raster image</a> editing product, targeted at hobbyist users and hence sold at a fraction (roughly 1/6th) of the cost of the professional product. It contains most of the features of the professional version but with fewer and simpler options. The program allows users to create, edit, organize and share images, all from the same product.<br>

Originally introduced alongside Photoshop version 7, Photoshop Elements targets photography enthusiasts and thus lacks many features that make it useful in a proper print production environment. For example, Photoshop Elements cannot export files in the <a title="CMYK" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMYK">CMYK</a> color mode (without using a third-party plug-in), supports a simplified color management system, and excludes detailed soft-proofing. It also either eliminates completely or offers simplified versions of some of the more powerful plug-ins, and instead has a number of features aimed at non-experts (such as removing the <a title="Red-eye effect" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-eye_effect">red-eye effect</a> or changing the skin tone in a picture). An example of a redesigned feature would be the Variations correction dialog. Some versions can, however, open, edit, and save <a title="PDF" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF">PDFs</a>.<br>

Photoshop LE (Limited Edition) was Adobe's consumer raster image editing product prior to the introduction of Elements. Photoshop LE had similar limitations to <em>Elements</em>.<br>

Adobe has also released a new free image editing web application, <a title="Adobe Photoshop Express" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Photoshop_Express">Adobe Photoshop Express</a>, with many more limitations than Adobe Photoshop Elements."<br>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Photoshop_Elements</p>

[tschoeller]

<p>I agree with Jon Roberts (above) opening line. Personally PS Elements is a great tool for BOTH professional and enthusiast alike if your a "photographer". The full PS version is really aimed towards graphics designers. That being said, I hardly use my Elements except for a few basic edits that I have come to trust and depend on. Image sharpening, the dodge and burn tool and when necessary the healing brush and clone stamp. I mainly am doing landscape-travel and nature so the Xpensive PS version is a huge waste of $$ for my own needs. <br>

Being a Nikon shooter I use the Capture NX2 program which is literally Nik Viveza and Dfine combined with the full editing tooltray. I like to process the RAW files right in NX2 before I begin any more edits. I dont know if your shooting Nikon or not, thats the only reason I mention this powerful editing program. I dont mean to get your post off track.<br>

I have found lightroom is perfect if you would like to edit multiple images at the same time. I have my own opinion on this-but its neither here nor there and doesnt answer your question. I dont use Lightroom any more.</p>

[danny_low]

<p>Photoshop is now used primarily by non-photographers. Graphic designers are probably the biggest user segment. That is why Photoshop now has so many features such as font manipulation that few photographers would ever use. Photoshop Elements is for beginners to advanced level photographers who are not necessarily professionals. It has little that non-photographers like graphic designers would need and use. Lightroom is more of a workflow and organizing program for photographers. It is for people who shoot hundreds if not thousands of images per year and need a good way to sort and organize them.</p>

<p>That is how I interpret Adobe's marketing strategy for these 3 products.</p>

<p>Danny</p>

 

[AlanKlein]

<p>Coincidentally I just got an email from Adobe. I'm on their mailing list because I have Elements 8 and Premiere 8. They have a special on Elements 9 at 49.99 including instant discount and mail in rebate. That's half price, a good deal.</p>

<p>You can buy their combo Elements 9 and Premiere 9 (their video editing program that's linked to Elements 9) for 94.99 with similar discounts. Lightroom 3 is 199.99 and CS5 is 599.00<br>

Call the phone number if anyone's interested:</p>

<p> Use offer code SAVE2010 either online or when calling 800-585-0774. Offers end November 30, 2010.</p>

<p>If you send me your email address, I'll forward the whole email back to you.</p>

[jason_hall5]

<p>I am very sorry for my misinformation. I used Elements some time back (I do not remember what version) and was very frustrated that I could not use layers with it. I even recall doing a internet search to help figure it out as I was afraid I was just not seeing it. Again, as I recall, I discovered it did not have that ability and so I stopped trying to use it.</p>

<p>After reading Mike's post above, It was Layer MASKING that it lacked. I am sorry for the mess up, however, MASKING is a very important part of useing layers. So with out that function, it was useless. Just my take on it.</p>

<p>Again, it does have layers, but <strong>did not</strong> (the version I had anyway) have<strong> layer masking.</strong></p>

<p>Sorry, thanks</p>

<p>Jason</p>

[AlanKlein]

<p>Here's the link <br>

Alan<br>

<a href="http://direct.adobe.com/v?xPvnccnEclHTHW">http://direct.adobe.com/v?xPvnccnEclHTHW</a></p>

[jason_hall5]

<p>I agree with others that Photoshop is really overkill for most any photographer, even more so for a beginner. There is no reason to fork out for that just yet. Lightroom does what I need for 95% or more of my photos. I use Photoshop to remove more diffecult lines and wrinkles from a ladies face, or remove a lot of lose hairs in a portrait, or maybe change heads around to creat the perfect family portrait. That is a blessing at time when young children and pets are involved. I had one lady who wanted me to slim down her arms and another that needed some red splotches removed from her neck. Photoshop is simply the best tool to do those things and I can not do with out it.</p>

<p>That is the reason for my opinion on Elements.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p> Do I understand that the significance of a workflow program like lightroom is the organizational feature?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sort of. For me the real advantage of Lightroom came when I started shooting RAW. You can not directly edit RAW images in photoshop elements or photoshop. You have open them in a RAW converter and change to JPEG or TIFF and then open in PS/PSE. With Lightroom I can import RAW, TIFF, JPEG, PSD, or any other and view, edit, one after the other in the same folder or multiple folders completely seamlessly. I can export a copy of an image into photoshop, make edits, and then go right back to lightroom with out issue.</p>

<p>You will likely not find you need all that stuff right off. So with all that said, Elements is all you need to get started and maybe all you will ever need. So enjoy it and learn it well.</p>

<p>Jason</p>

<p> </p>

[kevin_delson]

<blockquote>

<p>however, MASKING is a very important part of useing layers. So with out that function, it was useless.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Ummm; Elements 9 has layer masks.</p>

<p>I have CS4, I have Elements, I primarily use Capture NX.</p>

<p>When it's all said and done, Adobe CS whatever for 99% of the photographers out there is like using a sledge hammer to kill a fly.</p>

[jason_hall5]

<blockquote>

<p>Elements 9 has layer masks</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yeah, I get that, and that is great. As I said, the versions I had tried several years ago did not. I may would give it another go now, even more so at that price. However I have Photoshop CS and currently useing a freinds copy of CS5. But as I said, Lightroom does 95% percent of my work.</p>

<p>In any case, hope the OP's questions have been answered and I have not served to confuse them more.</p>

<p>Jason</p>

 

[dennis_sherman]

<p>I haven't used elements in years. I originally bought elements because the camera store said it was what I needed. I never really figured it out. Later, I enrolled in a professional photography program at Hennepin Technical College and had a couple semesters of Photoshop training with CS3, CS4 and am now using CS5. I couldn't imagine not having the full blown version at my disposal. Layers, Masks, Selection Tools, Blending Modes, Patch Tool, Clone Tool, High Pass Filter, Curves Adjustments, Paths, Actions, I think I have forgotten more than I use daily. The thing to remember is that CS comes at a price compared to elements or iPhoto for that matter. The classes to learn the program, books, time, the program itself are all an investment. If you want to do any heavy lifting, CS5 is the best tool at this time. But that doesn't mean everyone taking digital pictures wants or needs to spend hours in post manipulating images. I know people that are happy making adjustments on the mall kiosk. Elements was far more than I needed or could figure out how to use on my own when I started shooting digital. CS5 and a Wacom tablet are now essential, but that's after many many hours of classroom study and help from an Adobe certified instructor. The best part is that there is always new things to learn in Photoshop no matter what level you are currently at. I sometimes think I love working in post as much as capturing the images in the first place. Good Luck and have fun.</p>

[c._s.2]

<p>Thanks everyone for your input! I got the book I ordered on Amazon today about how to use Photoshop Elements. I'll keep you posted as to how it goes. I am very new to post-processing, so after the posts above, I am confident that my total $30 software/book purchase of Photoshop Elements 7 will be great for me to start off with. Thanks to everyone who has posted and continues to post:) I am new to this forum and welcome any info or help:) </p>

[AlanKlein]

<p>Good luck with Elements. Alan</p>

[jason_hall5]

<p>Happy shooting! Hope you enjoy it!<br>

Besure to post some of your work.</p>

<p>Jason</p>

[dan_south]

<p>Lightroom contains a combination of useful tools in a more intuitive package than Photoshop.</p>

<p>Lightroom's Library Module helps you to organize your photos into catalogs, collection, and smart collections. It also helps you manage metadata.</p>

<p>Lightroom's Develop Module is Photoshop's Adobe Camera Raw program.</p>

<p>Lightroom's Slideshow Module lets you show your work to clients and lets you create videos from your slideshows.</p>

<p>Lightroom's Print Module lets you customize print layouts.</p>

<p>Lightroom's Web Module lets you format and lay out web galleries.</p>

<p>Lightroom provides flexible, context sensitive copy and paste tools for everything from metadata to individual development adjustments.</p>

<p>Photoshop is better for local edits, but Lightroom provides some simple and powerful editing tools.</p>

<p>Lightroom's interface is more streamlined than Photoshop's, but there are no "layers" available in Lightroom.</p>

<p>All of Lightroom's adjustments are non-destructive. Lightroom makes no changes to the original RAW file. Photoshop's changes are always destructive. If you don't want to change the RAW file, you'll need to save the changes to another file.</p>

<p>Lightroom has no capacity for combining multiple images into a panorama, an HDR image, or a focus stack. Photoshop can do all of these.</p>

<p>Photoshop is the most powerful photo editing program ever devised, but the learning curve is steep, and even some simple adjustments are accessed in unintuitive ways. Lightroom is not nearly as powerful, but it provides the most common adjustments in an intuitive package. Lightroom 3 even provides lens and perspective correction. As a result, I rarely use Photoshop anymore.</p>

[snigam]

<p>Just to add some info to this thread, I have used trial version of Elements 9. It has layer masks but you cannot use layers in 16 bit mode. You have to drop down to 8 bit mode. What that means is if you do significant editing using layers and then flatten image, you have to be careful about posterization (specially in areas that have continuous color graduation like sky). When I was using Photoshop 7, 8 bit editing used to produce posterization rather quickly (spikes and valleys in histogram). Elements is elements, photoshop is photoshop.</p>