Planning a dual system with Pentax

[james_gay]

<p>"Don't plant seeds of thought in his head..."<br>

Are you suggesting that the Hinman has loam for a brain...? or... Is he just behaving like he does?</p>

[hinman]

<p>@James, personal attack is really not necessary. It is people like you with comments like yours that make a forum discussion goes from friendly to hostile. If you have anything worthwhile to say from a pea brain smaller than a rat, speak up for yourself.</p>

[hinman]

<p>@Michael and Justin, I am not attracted to full frame but that does not mean I am not in the future. I see myself as hobbyist and amateur not needing a full frame. I am very happy with aps-c. And seeing advances from aps-c sensor, I see the gap narrowing unless the next generation of full frame sensors have more to offer. My film use in 645N and 6x6 gets me plenty to explore and I see no needs in digital. Going Canon will be the viable option for FF as its 5D in both mark I and Mark II are well priced, I think the upgrade for D700 will compete head to head and hopefully the pricing is good for customers in the competition. If I were in Canon, I would go cheap and have a used 5D mark I for less than 1K as a landscape body.</p>

[joseph_wisniewski]

<blockquote>

<p>And seeing advances from aps-c sensor, I see the gap narrowing unless the next generation of full frame sensors have more to offer.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You know, I'm on entirely the opposite side of that argument. I bought my FF D3 mainly because of what it did for my lens compatibility. It was a darn nice 12mp, but I had a D2X, already a "darn nice 12mp). But the lenses. I was used to 35mm film. Going back over 30 years, I've always based the "core" on a simple, 3 lens kit: wide, normal, and nice portrait tele. My first little bag was M42 screw mount, Vivitar 220 body (we all make mistakes), Pentax 28mm and 50mm f1.4 SMC Tak, Vivitar 135mm. Eventually, that migrated to an MX Super, and some K mount lenses.</p>

<p>There was a pressure to go Nikon (second shooter opportunities + a deal on a couple of bodies and lenses I couldn't pass up). But Pentax "second systems" kept coming and going over the next couple of decades, all influenced by lenses. My "heavy bag" was always Nikon, but my "light bag" switched back and fourth. It always took the form of something like a 28mm f2.8, 50mm f1.4, and 135mm f2.8. One of my favorite bags, from maybe 20 years ago, was</p>

<ul>

<li>Nikon FM2</li>

<li>20mm f2.8 (got a real good deal on that one, along with a 35mm f2.8 PC)</li>

<li>50mm f1.8 pancake (Nikon's 1 inch, not recessed 50mm f1.8 version)</li>

<li>105mm f2.5 (I preferred the 135mm focal length, but the 105mm draws so nicely)</li>

</ul>

<p>Sometimes, that "fun" bag might get a specialized lens, like the</p>

<ul>

<li>55mm f2.8 macro</li>

<li>28mm f4 PC shift</li>

</ul>

<p>For the commercial stuff, I tended to use a bag with some heavy duty 35mm film gear. Here's what my last "film days" bag looked like, from</p>

<ul>

<li>Nikon F100 (pair)</li>

<li>14mm f2.8</li>

<li>17-35mm f2.8</li>

<li>28-70mm f2.8</li>

<li>35mm f1.4</li>

<li>50mm f1.2 manual focus</li>

<li>50mm f1.4</li>

<li>60mm f2.8 macro</li>

<li>80-200mm f2.8</li>

<li>85mm f1.4</li>

<li>105mm f2.5 manual focus (always and forever)</li>

<li>135mm f2.0 DC (the "bokeh control" lens)</li>

<li>200mm f4 macro</li>

<li>300mm f2.8</li>

</ul>

<p>1.5x crop cameras made that bag "suck", to use the technical term. Adding some lenses didn't help that much.</p>

<ul>

<li> 12-24mm f4 didn't match what I did with the 14mm or the 17-35.</li>

<li>50mm f1.4 (a 75mm f2.1 equivalent) wasn't a suitable replacement for the 85mm f1.4 as a short portrait tele</li>

<li>17-55mm f2.8 was effectively slower, and uglier, than the 28-70mm f2.8.</li>

</ul>

<p>I had no good fast normal, no good short portrait tele, a marked decline in the quality of the wides. Everything was higher distortion, more limited shallow DOF ability, and, it seemed, larger and clunkier. (A D2X seems pretty heavy, if you normally shoot an F100 without a vertical grip. Never got into the F5).</p>

<p>FF brought the lenses back into line with what I was used to. And, just to sweeten the pot, they launched a 14-24mm f2.8 that shredded the 14mm f2.8, half the range of the 17-35mm, and the 20mm f2.8, and the new 24-70mm f2.8, the best normal zoom that I've ever seen. The match between the lenses and my needs meant everything. The extra high ISO ability and shadow detail of the D3 was just gravy. Oh, and the viewfinder was a joy.</p>

[hinman]

<p>@Joseph, thanks for the FF detailed perspective. This is intriguing to me but I am much more novice in my gear usage as you can tell that I am more of a hobbyist and not doing professional work. I do shoot as freelance on occasions but nothing major as I am very much amateur.</p>

<p>I can share the feelings and love on Pentax on the small primes. I have a mix of DA and FA limited primes. They all work well in traveling light, my last trip to New Zealand have these three primes plus the 21mm but I ended up using most of my shots in 15,35,77 with a small Pentax K-x white</p>

<p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/hin_man/sets/72157624381472225/"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/4839549976_f1416ae0cb_z.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="425" /></a><br />picture link to <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/hin_man/sets/72157624381472225/">NZ photo set</a></p>

<p>In the trip, I round out the long tele-lens need with a cheapo Tamron 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6, which I have sold and shipped out today. The 4 lens and 1 body is perfectly compact to pact. <br>

I have since sold all of my DA limited in 21,40,70 and FA 50 to plan for the dual system. The 70mm is my most loved DA limited prime. </p>

<p>And in the dual system in transition, I will have 15,35, 43,77 with 43 missing in this picture</p>

<p><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/4838939055_f272318278_z.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="425" /></p>

<p>I am someone who always prefer on lighter and smaller gear, hence the D7000 attracts me and with an alternative path to FF if needed.</p>

<p>And I am liking film as much as I like digital. I don't go for one side and forget the other as I love b&w film and I have not tapped into my interest into slides yet</p>

<p>My film gear will likely to stay no matter what direction I take in digital ....<br>

.<br>

<img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/4982498309_1d8e1aafa6_z.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="425" /><br>

.<br>

<img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4153/5036939079_321d8edb02_z.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="425" /><br>

.<br>

shot with t-max on Ricoh xr-p and a 200mm cheap prime and print with enlarger on Ilford Pearl paper<br>

<img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5036941601_360ddaa769_z.jpg" alt="" width="425" height="640" /></p>

<p> </p>

[rparmar]

<p>Hin, I am not following your logic. I realise your dissatisfaction with Pentax. But what are you hoping to gain from keeping two systems? Either go all the way to Nikon or figure out what system advantages you are trying to leverage.</p>

<p>One approach, since you have the DA15, DA35, FA43 and FA77 is to just keep those. Then you have a nice compact stabilised prime system. That's the Pentax advantage. (I would ditch the DA35 myself and get a macro adapter in 49mm.)</p>

<p>Then I would get the following, assuming I had 7 grand in US dollars:<br />Nikon D700<br />Nikkor 16-35mm f/4 VR AF-S <br />PC-E Nikkor 24mm f/3.5D ED<br />Nikkor 50mm f/1.4 AF D<br />Nikkor 105mm f/2 AF-D DC<br>

<br /> And that is the Nikon advantage!</p>

[hinman]

<p>@Robin, the dual system is the transition phase so as to play conservative in my head as 2 body system until I can decide which way to go. I don't really think it is in my interest to dump all Pentax gear and move on to a brand that I know very little about. My Pentax gear in 10-17, 28-75,100,50-135,300,1.7x TC,flash will be phased out when I am comfortable with the new system. Does it make sense?</p>

[hinman]

<p>@Robin, I am taking a class on darkroom and b&w development. I have not done the developing stage for 120 film but I have been doing the printing with enlarger on photos taken by my Yashica mat-124g and that from Pentax 645N. I currently like to go to the film route for my learning and needs. $7K is not something I can justify for amateur use.</p>

<p><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5042646633_abd78729e2_z.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="425" /><br /> Left with Yashica Mat-124G on Fuji Acros 100 on tripod. My Yashica with lens is < $200<br /> Right with Pentax 645N on Ilford xp-2 400 hand-held with A 75mm f/2.8. MF combo ~ $500<br /> .<br /> .<br /> <br /><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5037560206_f6c7f5858a_z.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="425" /><br /> Photo taken with Ricoh xr-p in Kodak t-max 100 and Tamron 200mm f/3.5 adaptall-2, camera ~ $30.<br /> .<br /> And the cost of my basic MF/FF is ~ 1K</p>

[snik75]

<p>Hin, every time I try to "streamline my equipment", I end up buying more gear than I expected and hanging on to more than I planned, too. Why? A lot of what I have, and a lot of what I buy, is good stuff and has good uses. But, face facts, I can only use one camera and one lens at a time, and I only get to do so much shooting per day, per week, per month. </p>

<p>How many pictures are there that you couldn't take with a 15/35/43/70 kit, plus an 50-135, 80-200, 300 and TC? What differentiates two SLRs such that you need to have more than one at a time? In my experience, from playing around with gear old and new, I have large redundancies in my lens collection and my film body collection. What good does that do me when I shoot with a K20 and one of maybe 3-4 lenses? I can't imagine how much (probably nice) stuff I would end up with if I expanded into a new system.</p>

<p>Bottom line - if you are looking to have less stuff, don't buy more stuff.</p>

<p> </p>

[shaloot]

<p>Hin:<br>

Are those b&w film prints yours? If so, why haven't we seen a post about them on here or your blog, they look pretty good! I'm curious to read about how your foray into film is going, and by the looks of those, it seems to be going well!<br>

Also, I was waiting for the moment when we would see your famous camera p0rn shots in this thread, never fails lol!<br>

Oh, and I have nothing to add in terms of advice cause I have no clue what's out there.</p>

[markus maurer]

<p>Your beautiful b/w samples fresh from the darkroom proove it for me that less equipment may be more Hin. Did you consider a few weeks timeout from all this shopping around, you have come a long way since I first heard about you collecting inexpensive M42 glass? I'm really impressed by photographers that use 1 body and a few inexpensive primes and deliver constantly high quality contributions to the POW like for example "Beerbrain Ronny Perry". That collectors mania among a few of us Pentaxians starts to turn me off, what is going on here lately? </p><div></div>

[zane1664879013]

<p><em>How many pictures are there that you couldn't take with a 15/35/43/70 kit, plus an 50-135, 80-200, 300 and TC?</em><br>

Exactly. Respectfully, Hin, I think you're just obsessing over gear. Your photos are terrific. Save your money, skip the Nikon, and buy the K5 when the price drops a bit if you feel you absolutely have to buy <em>something</em>.</p>

[yvon_bourque2]

<p>Hin,<br />As you know, I also had considered running a dual system as well. After looking at my options, I decided to stay with Pentax. One of the reasons I stayed with Pentax is the comment you made on my blog. No matter how one looks at it, the Pentax system is better than anything that was available during the film era and certainly better than the most sophisticated DSLRs of just a few years ago, and that from all brands. You have the best lenses and I can tell you that the K-5 will make a difference in your shooting habits. I have a demo K-5 from Pentax which I will bring with me on my upcoming trip to Montreal. I will be testing it, reviewing it and post the results upon my return (around October 15). I will not be able to post any pictures until the firmware Rev.1.0 is released, but so far, It’s the best DSLR I have owned (or rather will own). There are no other photography friends like the Pentax friends. I hope you have received your K-x back by now. If not, drop me an email, I know some people at Pentax. You have been a good Pentax supporter and I can use that. I enjoy being a cyber-friend with you and all the other regulars on this site. I haven’t been able to join in the discussions very often during the past few months, but I will be here often now.<br />Stay with us!<br>

Yvon Bourque<br>

PentaxDSLRs</p>

[jgredline]

<p>Hin, Something else to consider. Now this may or may not matter to you...Today I went out to do some street shooting. I started out the day with my K-7 as I was trying some new things with it. Everything was going well and I was having a great time. About 6:30 or so this evening as it was starting to get dark, I noticed that the K-7 started to hunt and was having trouble focusing. I had the the DA*16-50F/2.8 on the cam, so I decided that it was time to go home. When I got to my truck, I thought to myself, Man it is still early, so I got my D300's with the 14-24F/2.8..I was able to shoot until well past 8:00pm. Focus was no problem. I was pretty amazed. Now for me, the low to near no light auto focus was never really an issue because I like shooting in the day light, but it was nice to be able to keep going. I wonder how the K-5 will compare with the D7000 in low light. I suspect it will not be able to keep up...Anyway, perhaps a little research in this area is in the cards for you as well. It really was nice shooting late into the evening. </p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Javier I was thinking about this as well. You and I have followed similar paths in equipment. Currently the Nikons do focus well in much tougher light conditions. But my K-x is pretty good in low light. Part of the issue you were having was not the camera but the lens. The DA*16-50mm is probably the worst low light lens Pentax makes.<br>

Back on point, with the improvements in the K-x in both AF and low light. Before I go on, I like my Nikon for what I need but I only added that gear because I shoot weddings. If I was just shooting for myself, I would have never bought Nikon. </p>

<p>I think the K-r and K-5 are worth waiting for. Consider that the D7000 and the K-5 use the same sensor. So we know that the base IQ will be the same. Pentax does a better job of image processing and AWB adjusting.</p>

<p>Then consider that there's no WS with Nikon and you lose SR. In fact you can't get VR in Nikon below 100mm. They don't put it in the primes and only a few consumer zooms offer it (24-120mm VR). WR surprised me. Nikon has several dust sealed lenses but none are rated as WR. I confirmed this with an email to Nikon USA.</p>

<p>So all that being said and also the fact of the extra expenses of a dual setup that are both APSc, I would say to wait until we get to see the K-5 and D7000 tested and used by shooters. You still have some excellent gear. You're having fun with film as well. As Markus said, this could be a great time to enjoy "less is more" while you are waiting for the new cameras to come out. Plus from all the shots you've shared with us over the past few years, shooting with long lenses doesn't seem very important to you (a Nikon strength).</p>

[jgredline]

<p>Peter. That is very interesting to me. That the Pentax top of the line lens is the worst low light auto focusing lens Pentax makes. Wow. </p>

[markus maurer]

<p>Some use manual (pre)focussing in low light but nowaday every photographic challenge HAS to be solved by an immediate buy of a new camera. And of course you need at least two sets for some street snaps :-(</p>

[jgredline]

<p>Markus, Since you are obviously directing this at me (Sorry if I am mistaken), I use manual focusing 90% of the time. To be more precise, I use zone / hyperfocal focusing most of the time. So if on a rare occasion, I decide to take out my K-7 and DA*16-50F/2.8 and expect it to ''autofocus'', am I asking to much from Pentax's current flag ship set up? If I am blessed enough to have dual systems and one does what the other does not, should I not use it? Would it also upset you to know I had a K20D in my truck as well. I have allot of equipment, but guess what. I also use it all and enjoy it at different days in different ways, including film more than half the time which is usually what I shoot with. So I am happy to keep snapping away :)</p>

[markus maurer]

<p>I question how you fuel LBA/CBA for photographic challenges that could easily be solved for free Javier and any automatic mode like AF should be switchable to manual mode anyway. I collect and read a lot of old photographic books and see how it was done back then with minimal and restricted equipment and great results, street & available light shooting is really not a such a science technic wise IMHO. </p>

[jgredline]

<p>Markus, You obviously did not read what I wrote, so I will leave it at that. </p>

[markus maurer]

<p>Sorry if I misunderstood you Javier.</p>

[hinman]

<p>Thank you for all the valuable inputs and different views on the matter of dual system. Some of you know of my frustration in my K-x which was in CRIS and it is in the 5th week and the parts are still being back-ordered from Japan, likely by ship. I learned about <strong>how Pentax stock parts</strong> by CRIS and Pentax USA, and I have <strong>my serious doubt </strong>whether having another Pentax body is a wise decision in my household. I really have my doubts in promoting Pentax K-x as a good entry level system. Pentax simply don't stock parts at least for the case of my Pentax K-x. <strong> Pentax and CRIS plan cost saving</strong> at the expense of customers long waiting for service. I have 2 digital systems with Pentax K-x and Pentax K20D. When it comes to the upgrade decision, I therefore thought of dual system instead of hanging onto Pentax.</p>

[hinman]

<p>I am not final on my decision on what to upgrade, I know the benefits in "less is more" and what I have in my current system is more than enough for what I intend to do. But there are several areas that I find lacking in Pentax. <br /> .<br /> <strong>AF in low light shooting</strong><br /> Some can be dealt with more patience, manual focusing, and learn to cope with the lacking. AF in K20D & K-x is sufficient for most of my use but when it goes into indoor lighting in extreme low lighting environment as in a night club, it is a pains inducing process to lock on focus. The other night, I shot K20D and FA 43mm f/1.9 in a night club, most shots waited an extra 1 to 2 seconds to lock on focus with AF assisted light from my flash, it was quite embarrassing when my friends lost all of the smile in some of the pictures. In general, I find AF lacking in low night shooting. Perhaps someone with K7 and K10D experience can shed some light if K7 has improved over K10D/K20D in low light shooting.<br /> .<br /> <strong>AF.C on tracking</strong><br /> The other area that I really find lacking is the AF.C on tracking. Though I am not big on tele-shooting, my interest in shooting birds go diminished with AF.C in K20D and K-x. Of course, one can argue that Marc L. can shoot perfect shots in hummingbirds with his K10D. But please think for a moment, I ain't Marc L. and he is perhaps one of the few exceptions who can pull out his skills and have money to invest in the 600mm lens and its accessories.<br /> .<br /> <strong>SDM failures</strong><br /> The facts as well as the constant reports in PF forums on SDM is unsettling<br /> .<br /> <strong>pTTL Flash</strong><br /> I am newbie to flash and I always have issues with pTTL. Maybe, that is just me having issues with pTTL, I call the letter 'p' for Pathetic TTL. <br /> .<br>

<strong>Lacking of long lens and TC</strong><br>

There is essentially no story telling in terms of long lens that is over 300mm and a new TC that work with longer lens<br>

.<br>

.<br /><strong>Pentax Service</strong><br /> The last and most critical point to tip me over is the Pentax Service. <br /> .<br /> All the above points are subjective and based on my own experience and understanding.</p>

<p> </p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Hin, Certainly I do not want to convince you one way or the other. Just to possibly offer some points to consider before spending the money.<br>

When it comes to service, Pentax has it`s issues without question. But remember that they use the same service center that Canikon does for USA national coverage. The only real difference is how many parts Pentax has in stock in the US and how much loyalty they will get from the service center when they are smaller than some other clients that use the same center.<br>

 <br>

I think Low light AF will be addressed with the new bodies. Tracking is something we will have to wait and see. Right now it's behind the others. P-TTL, well what can we say? It seems about equal to Canon and behind Nikon. Until we see some new flashes, that will remain a bit of an issue.<br>

 <br>

SDM is a sore point for many of us. Myself included. Really Pentax needs to clearly state something has changed. Until then, rumours will continue, historical issues will be spoken of as if they happened yesterday. People will always be concerned before paying for a lens this expensive that may or may not last.<br>

 <br>

Javier, My comment on the DA*16-50mm is my opinion only of course. You know that I've owned my fair share of good glass and I know you have as well. When it came to being the workhorse lens, the DA* was on the camera more than any other. But in dark situations, I'd switch to nearly anything else, Tamron 28-75mm, FA50mm FA43mm, Sigma fast primes etc. In theory, the DA* should be fast enough at f2.8 to gather the light in tougher situations. It just doesn't from my experience.</p>

[14mm 2.8l]

<p>Google is a powerful tool.</p>

<p>Canon added another factory service center in Va, in USA.</p>

<p>That's 5 Canon run, Canon operated , Canon owned service facilities in USA I know of:</p>

<p><a href="../canon-eos-digital-camera-forum/004Ie6">http://www.photo.net/canon-eos-digital-camera-forum/004Ie6</a></p>

<p>"There are numerous Canon authorized service facilities in the US. However, there are only a few Canon Service Centers. Here are the addresses and phone numbers:<br>

Canon USA Inc. 15955 Alton Pkwy Irvine, CA 92718 tel: (714) 753-4200<br>

Canon USA Inc. 210 Ward Avenue Suite 200 Honolulu, HI 96814 tel: (808) 522-5930<br>

Canon USA Inc. 6325 Muirfield Drive Hanover Park, IL 60103 tel: (630) 582-8773<br>

Canon USA Inc. 100 Jamesburg Rd Jamesburg, NJ 08831 tel: (732) 521-7007 "</p>

<p> </p>