New Nikon rangefinder - from Cosina/Voigtlander

[cd thacker]

As improbable as it may seem, Cosina/Voigtlander is releasing two new

versions of the Bessa R2: one in the old Contax mount (not to be

confused with the new Contax mount), and one in the Nikon screw mount.

The Nikon version is called the <a

href=http://www.cameraquest.com/voigt_r2s_r2c.htm>Bessa R2S</a>, and

it's similar (somewhat) in appearance to the Nikon SP rangefinder

camera that was discontinued in 1962 or thereabouts. <P>

 

The full lineup of Bessa R2 lenses will be available in Nikon screw

mount. Great news for Nikon shooters! Now, I wonder if a rangefinder

from Nikon itself is in the works?

[douglas_green1]

And, SURPRISE, SURPRISE, these $5000 rangefinders with 45 year-old technology did not sell well. Proving that even camera collectors have brains, and/or finite budgets for toys.

 

Cosina/Voigtlander correctly recognized that whatever demand there WOULD be for this type of camera, would be in price range having one fewer Zero in it. After the special edition Nikon S3 cameras did not sell as well as hoped by Nikon, I would be quite surprised to see any NEW 35mm film-based RF camera from Nikon.

[david_kelly1]

"Nikon screw mount"? I think the Nikon rangefinders have a bayonet

mount, copied from Contax...........

[jerry_lehrer]

Douglas

 

I know of a California dealer that can't even sell their S3 for

$3000. Of course, I don't know the dealer cost for this item.

And yes, it is still in a sealed box!

 

Jerry

[jsbc]

The problem with the S3 is not just price - it is an old machine and Nikon is not coming out with new lenses other than the 50mm F1.4. Instead of the S3, I've picked up a user SP instead.

 

Perhaps the S3 will sell quicker now that C/V has come up with the Bessa - S. The developments by C/V certainly make them look more attractive. They would make an ideal pair - a metered user model to make use of the lenses and an expensive, but usable, collector's model as a backup. More importantly, C/V will be supplying lenses to the system, so not only can we now use 15mm without paying thousands of dollars, we also have recourse to cheap and decent 35mm, 50mm etc.

 

 

Stephen Gandy also said that C/V would introduce a Ai-to-S converter (as well as introducing the 12mm and 15mm rectilinear lens in Ai mount) that will further expand the range of lens the S-mount can use. Now if they will only brin out a LTM-Nikon S adapter even if it is uncoupled (don't know whether this is actually feasible).

[jerry_lehrer]

Johnson

 

LTM (Leica thread mount) lenses were made for "thin" cameras. Our

Nikon SLR cameras are "thick". I am refering to the lens mount

flange to the film distance. LTM lenses would never focus to infinity.

 

The reverse setup is possible. See Gandy's excellent website.

 

Jerry

[cd thacker]

<I>I think the Nikon rangefinders have a bayonet mount</I><P>

 

I stand corrected. I posted this thread in a hurry, before I'd even read the page it links to.<P>

 

I agree with Gerald: Gandy's site certainly is a treat. I especially enjoy his <a href=http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm>Classic Camera Profiles</a> page - where you can learn a very great deal about rangefinders.<P>

 

I was aware of the new edition of the S3 that Douglas mentions - I was aware also of the price. Such a price tells you right away that Nikon isn't (or wasn't) marketing this thing as a tool, but was rather catering to the collector market. If it isn't selling well, price probably has everything to do with it. But there may be other reasons, also, that I'll not speculate on right now.<P>

 

Suffice it to say that the rangefinder is back, and its popularity continues to grow. It would enhance Nikon's reputation <I>immensely</I>, I think, if they put the SP back in production - or maybe updated it, like the VW Beetle - and made some exquisite optics to fit onto the front. In the meanwhile, though, the R2 in its various permutations will do nicely; along with the upcoming Rollei RF (with Zeiss lenses in Leica M mount) and the Leica M series. If only I could buy them all . . . .

[cd thacker]

As well as, of course, the autofocus Contax G1 and G2, and the Konica Hexar with its up to date features. Almost forgot about those.

[jsbc]

Gerald:

 

A LTM-Nikon F mount should be possible for the F-F2-F3 professional cameras which have the mirror lock up feature. But I agree, this will be inconvenient, and the guessimate focusing would limit its application to only the wide-angles.

 

I think a LTM-to-Nikon/Contax Rangefinder mount adapter would be great. Even if it is uncoupled, it would enable me to use a 35mm or 21mm on the Nikon S cameras. Their film to flange distances are not that far apart...

[gary_watson]

With respect, Doug, I'm worried that Kobayashi-san's increased fugu consumption is starting to show.How is this living fossil poised to enhance Nikon's reputation? The Limited Edition SP was target marketing at its finest for crazed collectors. VW didn't update the Beetle; they reinvented it. This is just another of the Cosina resurrections of a long-gone lens mount RF system, courtesy of the same injection moulder that cranks out Gundam Wing models. I'll salute it as a marketing coup but wonder how much longer Cosina can float the scam. All I want is a nice 8-10 megapixel black F Photomic Ftn replica. Not much to ask, as I see it.

[cd thacker]

<I>How is this living fossil poised to enhance Nikon's reputation?</I><P>

 

My point wasn't that <I>Cosina</I> would enhance Nikon's reputation; my point was that <I>Nikon</I> has the opportunity to do so.<P><I> The Limited Edition SP was target marketing at its finest for crazed collectors. </I><P>

 

True.<P>

 

<I>VW didn't update the Beetle; they reinvented it. </I><P>

 

I'm not sure I understand the distinction.<P>

 

<I>This is just another of the Cosina resurrections of a long-gone lens mount RF system, courtesy of the same injection moulder that cranks out Gundam Wing models. I'll salute it as a marketing coup but wonder how much longer Cosina can float the scam. </I><P>

 

If you're serious, you might want to do a little reading on the subject. Everything I've seen - everything - comments from users in the Cosina/Voigtlander user's group, comments from Leicaists (who are not known for being east to convince - and so on - everything, as I say - indicates that Kobayashi's lenses are remarkable value for money and truly excellent. More important, though, in helping to revive the rangefinder, he's introduced new generations to the joys of photography in its pure elements, devoid of whirr and click and automatic jack-you-off.<P>

 

In any event, given the non-existent economies of scale involved with this, he's obviously not making any kind of money on the endeavor, but doing it for love of the craft - which, after all, is about the best we can hope for any industrialist - and get from almost none. I'm with Gandy on this: three cheers for Kobayashi!<P>

 

As for how a new rangefinder might enhance Nikon's reputation? If they did it right - ie, if they approached it in the same way they approached the first few iterations of the F, the development of RGB matrix metering, and the multitude other innovations in their august history; if they approached it, in other words, from the standpoint of achievement - instead of cost of goods, maximized margins, marketing, and leveraging of brand equity: they could once again remind the world of how and why that brand equity came to be theirs in the first place.<P>

 

<I>All I want is a nice 8-10 megapixel black F Photomic Ftn replica. Not much to ask, as I see it.</I><P>

 

All in good time.

[gary_watson]

Perhaps the rangefinder revival is just an index of profound boredom. I doubt Cosina's acountants would approve Kobayashi's apparent philanthropy if he wasn't making money at it--get real.Low volume needs low costs to make a buck at these prices and no one can mistake the smell of plastic these Cosina products emit.The entire Cosina-based RF line is great fun, granted, but I'd not be surprised by higher prices or its sudden disappearance.Nice toys but a bit inconsequential.

[constance_cook]

The Cosina/Voigtlander cameras are usually sold out in Japan. You can find some lenses or cameras but not all at any given time. If you want a specific camera (say an R2) and a specific lens, it is likely to not be available so you put your name on a list and they contact you. But new items are sold out pretty much all the time.

 

While these cameras and lenses are not on every corner in the U.S., this does not constitute the market. Kobayashi knows what he's doing, I think.

 

Conni

[jsbc]

Come to think of it - I betcha if Nikon tries really really hard, they can produce a digital rangefinder camera with a changeable lens system. Make it compatible with the screw mount and Nikon S mount (through different adapters) and they can supplant Leica on the rangefinder mkt.

 

Johnson

[douglas_green1]

Johnson, that's never been a real question - Could they do it? The question that they have to answer in the affirmative is: Could they make money if they did it? I'm willing to bet that they don't think that they could.

[jsbc]

Douglas:

 

You may be right. Even if the rangefinder series make money, it would be small change to them.

 

Then again, their marketing dept sometimes is hard to fathom. Given the S3's price, there is no doubt it would be a money loser. But they

still persist.

 

Even more incredible is their lens line-up. I can understand the G series lens and the fact that low-end Nikons no longer meter with Ai mounts as part of a co-ordinated effort to push amateurs to buy new lenses rather than second hand ones. However, I cannot understand why the new AFS tele-photo lens need to be G. Clearly the only buyers would be professionals or amateurs who can afford them. The inability to use these with F3s, F2, FM2n, to name a few, would turn away customers.

 

Similarly, why didn't they enable D100 to meter with the manual lenses? After all, most people who would buy expensive DSLRs now are either (1) people who already own a Nikon system (2) rich amateurs who would buy the AF lens anyway because they want the latest gadgets and functionalities. I actually bought a D30 rather than a D100 since the Canon, believe it or not, provided metering and AE with my Nikon lens (albeit in stop-down mode).

 

Anyway, too much ranting. I should be happy because the new Nikon-mount rangefinders will allow me to use the brandnew 105 F2.5 that I brought by mistake years ago, with the lens hood and everything, thinking that it was for the Nikon F system.

[cd thacker]

The S3 is a <I>prestige</I> item for Nikon, with a (transparently) prestige price (one that bears no relation to true value or cost of manufacture). Prestige is an important consideration in the photography market. Nikon is big, but not so big that they can afford to forget such things, and their value. I'm sure that their intent, is for the S3 make money for them in the larger scheme of things.<P>

 

The new lenses being of the "G" type, is an obvious attempt on Nikon's part to transition the pro users to G lenses, and to segregate the AIS equipment. The D100 doesn't meter with AIS lenses for the simple reason that it is stamped out of the N80 body (Nikon would have shown more integrity, I think, by calling it the "D80").<P>

 

Getting back to prestige, Nikon has it within their capability to drive the rangefinder market, in part by building absolutely

killer glass for it. It's not for nothing that rangefinders are becomming popular again; now that technology enables people to do pretty much whatever they want with a camera, people are finding that what they want more and more is to get away from technology. Might as well exploit that sentiment.

[gary_watson]

Nikon apparently had no illusions about who would buy the S3 replicas.The product was intended for collectors, who are not an inconsiderable market in Japan. Indeed, the same sort of exclusivity resulting from limited production is part of the CV "mystique," as noted by Conni. Although practically unknown in N. America, limited production of speciality(though not necessarily expensive)items remains a Japanese tradition and a thumb in the eye of mass production.I don't think Nikon is poised to lead a rangefinder revolution, despite wishful thinking, Doug.The Nikon Historical Society has several informative articles on the "making" of the new S3.

[cd thacker]

Sounds like we are in agreement, Gary. And yes, I suppose it is wishful thinking; but only so long as Nikon doesn't take the hint - if and when they do, all bets are off. Thanks for the pointer to the Nikon Historical society articles.

[chris_protopapas]

Hey, I owned and used an original Nikon S3 for many years, and I absolutely loved

that camera. I had a 50mm and a very rare 25mm F4 that I used for most of my

shooting, and it was the most comfortable and handy combination of lens and

camera I've ever shot with. I sold it because the body became somewhat

unreliable (it had seen a LOt of use) and the lens, while only fair in quality, was

worth a mint as a collector's item. I wouldn't pay $5000, or even $3000, for a

new one, but something in the range of a Contax G2 I would consider seriously.

Which makes the Voigtlander a particlarly interesting camera. In fact, the Bessa

L with the Skopar 25mm would pretty much be a functional replacement for my

S3, and for a bargain price. But a Bessa R2S would be an affordable and

functional bit of nostalgia for someone with fond memories of those old Nikons.<div></div>