Need Advice re: Booked Wedding Photographer Please!

[dave_redmann]

<p><em>Legally, a deposit is refundable.</em></p>

<p>Often, that's simply wrong. In my state, unless the contract explicitly says something different, a deposit means, if the customer cancels, the vendor or service provider keeps the deposit, and if the vendor or service provider cancels, the customer gets twice the deposit back. Be very careful about taking legal advice from Internet forums; often it is way wrong, or at best of questionable accuracy for the jurisdiction where you are.</p>

 

[daverhaas]

<p>I'm not going to go into the legal aspects or possibilities here other than to say that if their contract is like a lot of ours - it states that if the photographer is unable to book another event for equal or more pay on the same date - and you no longer wish to have them take your photos - then you forfeit the entire retainer / deposit. In exchange for that exclusivity is granted to that date and your event. (Meaning that the studio / photographer won't go out and solicit other business for that same date.) </p>

<p>Now - what I'd do is call the photographer and ask to meet face to face. Don't do the meeting over the phone or via email - FACE to FACE. Sit across from him (ask him to bring a laptop with his portfolio) and tell him your concerns. Ask to see samples of his work. Don't take no for an answer. And BE HONEST WITH HIM. Tell him that you are concerned about the apparent decrease in the quality of his work in the past x months / days / weeks.... Find out if he is willing to share the "WHY?" If he insists that nothing has changed even though you and others can see it - then seriously engage an attorney that specializes in contract law. </p>

<p>I'm not saying that there are excuses but maybe there are... Something could have happened in his life that is impacting his ability to produce the quality that you saw earlier. Maybe equipment changed, broke, got stolen, or maybe he is having physical or psychological problems. Or possibly they are on a medication and having a bad reaction. - I've seen stranger things happen when people change or go on / off meds. </p>

<p>Good luck - hopefully it is nothing major and it works out for you. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[john_h.1]

<p>I wholeheartedly agree with David's post which well fleshes out the prior suggestions of communicating and finding out what's going on before drawing conclusions.</p>

<p>I also like and find wisdom and practicality with the clause in his contract that calls for a forfeit of a hold the date style retainer IF another booking cannot be secured (hopefully of similar value). It sort of borrows from the mitigation of damages duty in case of breach, I mentioned earlier, which is a after the fact damages amount issue and incorporates and essentially preempts it right in to the retainer terms. Its not arbitrary at all. The inherent fairness and compliance to liquidated damages analysis bolsters its enforceability. Preserving evidence of good faith efforts to secure new bookings is critical but easy to accomplish. As always, have contract changes professionally reviewed for local use.</p>

[davebell]

<p>I don't understand all the talk about the law etc. I think you live in very litigation-happy society, which thankfully is not the case in most of the rest of the world.</p>

<p>I strongly suggest phoning up the photographer and challenging them in a very controlled, polite manner. Say exactly how you feel and express your concerns, then await their response. Only then, decide what to do.</p>

[p._b.]

<blockquote>

<p>I don't understand all the talk about the law etc. I think you live in very litigation-happy society, which thankfully is not the case in most of the rest of the world.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree, and I'm not the lawsuit happy type of person. I would hope that is a last resort! I will keep you all posted.</p>

<p>Also, I am curious to know where most of you are located as I didn't realize this was such an international forum. I am in the Northeast US.</p>

[goldbergbarry]

<p>Let me offer a different perspective. Before you go down the road of trying to get your deposit back or anything like that, why don't you have a direct in-person conversation with them so that you can share your concerns. Listen to them - there may be some valid explanation for everything, or perhaps the primary photographer is getting out of the business. Once you have this info, then you can decide what you want to do.</p>

<p>You once trusted them and they lost your trust. Explain this to them calmly and see how they respond.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>I am curious to know where most of you are located as I didn't realize this was such an international forum. I am in the Northeast US.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm in the northeast as well but they don't cal this the world wide web for nothing.</p>

[p._b.]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm in the northeast as well but they don't cal this the world wide web for nothing.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Haha, I know. I was just getting the impression that it was <em>mostly </em>international (I could be wrong), because it seemed people were saying the "US" as if it were not their own country.</p>

[wedding-photography-denver]

<p>I would ask if the one you booked shot those images that concern you. Then ask who will ACTUALLY shoot your day.</p>

<p>If someone came to me and said they were concerned about my quality and wanted to cancel, I personally would not hesitate to refund their money. I only want clients who want me/my style.</p>

<p>Best, D.</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p><em><strong>I don't understand all the talk about the law</strong> etc. I think you live in very litigation-happy society, which thankfully is not the case in most of the rest of the world.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I do - the thread went sideways - Perhaps I started it.<br>

But I was simply cautioning <em><strong>NOT to take comments here as legal advice</strong></em><em> (mainly because I could not ascertain where the OP lived or worked)</em><em><strong>. </strong></em><br>

I specifically quoted one such piece of advice, which in certain jurisdictions was WRONG.<br>

From that point there was more talk of legal action.<br>

I don't think legal action is the first course of action, but I do think that knowing the rules (i.e. "rights and obligations") in a most useful idea.<br>

I also think that <strong><em>face to face </em></strong>is a good idea and I said that in as many words when I commented that I wouldn't have parted with 3K, without a face to face meeting.</p>

<p>I live in Sydney, Australia and work across all States & Territories, in Australia.</p>

<p>WW</p>

 

[simon_crofts]

<p>The talk about law was because Photographer Bride was interested whether she was entitled to get her deposit back, and had asked about that. It sounded like she'd had some slightly shaky legal advice.</p>

<p>The other advice about talking to the photographer and try to work out what it happening, who will shoot at the wedding, whether the photographer will return some or all of the $3000, whether or not she's entitled to the deposit back, is fine practical advice, but at the back of it all it is useful to know what your rights are - it helps if you know how firm you can get with the photographer if you have to, or whether you will end up losing your $3000.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I also like and find wisdom and practicality with the clause in his contract that calls for a forfeit of a hold the date style retainer IF another booking cannot be secured</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Absolutely it's a good idea. But there isn't any indication that the OP's contract says this, so it's probably not very relevant here.</p>

<p> </p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p><em>"because as a photographer" . . . "I am curious to know where most of you are located as I didn't realize this was such an international forum."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>As you are a Photographer yourself, why not hang around and participate – the world is a big place and there are lots of different points of view; cultures, religions and experiences shared here.<br />Have fun: <a href="../photo/11164434&size=lg">http://www.photo.net/photo/11164434&size=lg</a></p>

<p>WW</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>here isn't any indication that the OP's contract says this, so it's probably not very relevant here.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>True but we don't have any actual contract language and only the OP's interpretation of it. Anyway, I thought it might be helpful for others to consider the scheme while a discussion of the general topic was taking place. It wouldn't have fit so well in a "Which lens should I buy?" thread.</p>

[p._b.]

<blockquote>

<p>As you are a Photographer yourself, why not hang around and participate – the world is a big place and there are lots of different points of view; cultures, religions and experiences shared here.<br />Have fun: <a rel="nofollow" href="../photo/11164434&size=lg">http://www.photo.net/photo/11164434&size=lg</a></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thank you, I planned on doing this! I just wanted to remain anonymous in this case to protect my photographer and myself. Great shot btw :)</p>

[senor_crocodrillo]

<p>This doesn't have to be so complicated. Really, it's over a year away! Call the photographer and say you changed your mind. Ask them to bill you for any services rendered, time included. If it's an outrageous amount, or they make a big stink about it, have your lawyer send a letter. A good lawyer will get you out of anything and it won't cost you anything near $3K. In fact, I doubt any photographer would hold onto that kind of money without good reason (And I can't think of a single one- really a year and a half away?), especially after a letter threatening legal action. <br />In fact, judging by the above responses, you can see that most wedding photographers are self-absorbed Google fools with nothing better to do with their time when it comes to answering other's legal questions. Consider yourself redeemed.</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p><em><strong>In fact, judging by the above responses, you can see that most wedding photographers are self-absorbed Google fools with nothing better to do with their time when it comes to answering other's legal questions.</strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>You make me smile, Mr Crocodile.</p>

<p>WW</p>

 

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p><em><strong>you can see that most wedding photographers are self-absorbed Google fools with nothing better to do with their time when it comes to answering other's legal questions</strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>If that Google fool comment is aimed at me, I often try to point people in the right directions with their legal questions when they come up, without actually giving legal advice, because I have some knowledge in the area, having worked as a corporate lawyer for many years in a couple of the biggest and best UK and US international law firms. I had a look at the post and replied after a long hard day photographing a wedding. But, actually<strong>, </strong>you're right, I probably do have better things I could be doing with my time - like sleeping!</p>

<p>Like I said, the legal theory and the practical answer may well diverge in this situation, I'm not trying to say that the legal position, whatever it is, gives the answer. I just thought the OP might like some background information, which might just help. <strong><br /></strong></p>

<blockquote>

<p>A good lawyer will get you out of anything and it won't cost you anything near $3K.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>A good lawyer won't get you out of anything - he will just tell you when it's not pursuing.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>In fact, I doubt any photographer would hold onto that kind of money without good reason</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Maybe. On the other hand, I think you might be surprised.</p>

[mike_hitchen]

<p>In the UK it would be unusual to take a non-refundable deposit a year out. Most contracts have a clause along the lines of cancellations made X months out gives full refund, Y months out is 50% etc. Timescale depends on the nature of the business and the understood difficulties of getting a booking to fill the vacated slot. A nationally-printed photographer should ahve no problem filling the slot in this timeframe.</p>

<p>If you are really worried about this, and if you are civil but assertive, I think you could explain to them that you are concerned about the seeming drop of quality of photos on their site and you are apprehensive about the booking. If they can't give you enough assurances then discuss the scale of refunds. Remaining calm and objective (difficult, I know) is the key to negotiations I think<br>

If they have started to sub-contract work (or sold the business to someone less skilfull) maybe you could be more demandng of a full refund because you are no longer getting the service you originally paid for.</p>

<p>I wish you good luck either way.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>Timescale</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Another good way to bolster the enforceability of a hold the date/and or liquidated damages clauses considering the the required element of reasonableness at time of contracting, and in some states, also factoring in reasonableness at time of breach. The closer to a wedding date a contract formation (and a breach or cancellation) the less likely replacement work can be secured. That makes increased amounts of 'hold the date' payment forfeiture closer to a wedding date more reasonable. It's based on reality.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>self-absorbed Google fools</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Most insulting. How dare you suggest I used Google!</p>

[simon_crofts]

<blockquote>

<p>In the UK it would be unusual to take a non-refundable deposit a year out.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm not so sure that it's unusual - if you Google "wedding photographer contract" and narrow the scope to the UK, a large proportion of them - the majority of the ones that I saw - require a deposit and say that it is non-refundable, or words to that effect. Some of them say that the deposit is refundable if there's a cancellation, but very many say that it isn't refundable.</p>

<p>In the OP's case, that's all a bit academic, since she is in the US not the UK, and she tells us the contract says the deposit is non-refundable. Though there may scope for arguing whether the $3000 was deposit or part payment.</p>

<p>There's some reason for the old saying about possession being nine-tenths of the law. The fact that the photographer is holding the money and would have a good argument for keeping hold of it is significant. The real thing that might persuade him/her to return some or all of it is not so much the threat of legal action, but the worry that the bride might go onto the internet and start telling people what happened if he/she didn't return it, naming names this time. Just for that reason he/she may well hand the money back.</p>

 

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>naming names this time.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The ole' win the battle but lose the war situation. A potential legal win in one instance can lead to reputation loses in many others.</p>

[markonestudios]

Yikes That's a lot of cash to put down as deposit :) IMHO only a handful of photographers would I trust with such sums, a whole 12 months in advance, before they even press the shutter. I do get bookings a year in advance sometimes. Hmmm.. time for a price hike, methinks! :D

<p>Let us know how it goes though. If you have such strong reservations this early, you may be better off getting your money back and booking someone else.