Thoughts on Graduated Neutral Density Filters

[mendel_leisk]

<p>I've never used these, but have been reading up, and getting increasingly intrigued and interested in the concept. I've got a (mark I) Canon 5D, and there's a couple of crop-body Canon EOS under our roof as well.</p>

<p>One interesting demo video from Craig Stock Arts:</p>

<p><a href="

<p>I'm not sure, but I believe he's using a Canon 17-40 on 5D in the demo. In response to questions he mentions some components and their B&H Stock numbers. He suggests if you're using wide angle to forgo the 3 layer, regular holder, and instead get single layer holder, being better with wide angle lens(though I've heard it might still vignette at the very widest.</p>

<p>This seems to me a good starting point, with my identical set-up (5D w/ 17-40, and several other 77mm lens).</p>

<p>I'm considering to also get a screw-in type GND. I appreciate it's not as flexible, since you can't move the "horizon" up and down, but seems more convenient and portable.</p>

<p>Here's B&H links for the Craig Stock Art recommendations:</p>

<p>Singh-Ray 3.3 x 4.7" Galen Rowell Graduated Neutral Density (ND) 2-Stop Filter (soft transition):<br /><a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/48366-REG/Singh_Ray_R_34_3_3_x_4_7.html">http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/48366-REG/Singh_Ray_R_34_3_3_x_4_7.html</a></p>

<p>Cokin P-Series Filter Holder (single layer holder, suited for wide angles):<br /><a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/628301-REG/Cokin_CBPW400_BPW400_Wide_Angle_Filter.html">http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/628301-REG/Cokin_CBPW400_BPW400_Wide_Angle_Filter.htmlCokin</a></p>

<p>adapter ring (77mm, P-Series):</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/14096-REG/Cokin_CP477_P_Series_77mm_Adapter.html">http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/14096-REG/Cokin_CP477_P_Series_77mm_Adapter.html</a></p>

<p>And here's the screw-in GND filter I had in mind:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/10460-REG/B_W_65_063820_77mm_Graduated_Neutral_Density.html">http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/10460-REG/B_W_65_063820_77mm_Graduated_Neutral_Density.html</a></p>

<p>Anyway, I'd appreciate any advice, thoughts, suggestions: what works for you, etcetera. A few questions in mind:</p>

<p>1. Would the recommended Singh-Ray 3.3"x4.7" filter size be big enough for 77mm wide like the Canon 17-40. Or should I go bigger, say to 4"x6"? I understand the 4x6 is much easier if you want to try hand-holding the filter.<br />2. Glass vs Resin?<br />3. Cokin filter color cast?<br />4. Screw-in filters worthwhile?<br />5. Hard vs Soft transistion? 2 stop vs 3 stop? Variations between manufacturers?<br />6. Tips?</p>

[joseph_wisniewski]

<p>1) Probably. Same size I use on a Nikon 17-35 f2.8<br>

2) Resin bounces when you drop it. Glass does something totally unlike bouncing. Do you drop stuff?<br>

3) Yes, ugly.<br>

4) No, unless you compose 100% of your shots with centered horizons, in which case, consider trading in that 5D for a rebel...<br>

5) Soft transitions on a wide. 3 stops. Yes, there are.<br>

6) Sure. If you feel a need to tip me, photo.net membership or I have an Amazon wishlist.</p>

[gregcoad]

<p>1) P-size (85mm) will not be big enough for your purposes. My 1-slot "wide-angle" P-series holder vignettes at anything wider than 28mm on my 24-70 f/2.8L on my full frame 1Ds. My 2 slot P-series holder vignettes at 35mm and wider. I am going to be adding the 17-40 f/4L to my kit and plan on selling my P-series filters and accessories as I realize they will be useless with that lens. I plan on upgrading to a set of 100mm filters (hopefully those will be large enough - Can anyone else comment on this? Do I need to go bigger than 100mm?)</p>

<p>2) ditto what Joseph said.</p>

<p>3) ditto...</p>

<p>4) ditto...</p>

<p>5) definitely get a set of 3 to start with. 1,2, & 3 stop. Sounds like most of your shooting is wide angle so start with soft transition.</p>

<p>6) I could not justify the cost of the Singh Ray filters (or Lee for that matter). But also could not be satisfied with Cokin junk. I purchased Hi-Tech from <a href="http://www.teamworkphoto.co.uk">www.teamworkphoto.co.uk</a> and couldn't be happier. They sell them in nice kits and the prices are incredible. (at least 1/3 or better what you would pay for comparable Singh Ray stuff). The Hi-Tech filters have no color cast, are made from the same optical resin and come in the sizes and shapes to work with any holder type you might have.</p>

<p> </p>

[mike_earussi1]

<p>Hardest thing is to find one that's actually neutral. Buy a half a dozen at once and test them against each other then return the ones that aren't neutral. But don't even waste your time with Cokin or Tiffin. I've had good luck with Hitech .<a href="http://www.formatt.co.uk/stills-filters/filters/stills-filters.aspx">http://www.formatt.co.uk/stills-filters/filters/stills-filters.aspx</a></p>

<p> </p>

[sumo_kun]

<p>Joseph answered most of your questions. I would add that for 1) go for a 4" system because its more flexible in the long run and also if you want to stack filters you want bigger to avoid vignetting and for 5) it depends on the manufacturer but for Lee filters, a 2 stop hard is a good first filter.<br>

Generally for wide angles you want soft gradations or you will see the line. Lee softs however are very soft. I also strongly recommend you don't go Cokin. There have been way too many reports on their colour casts. Lee and Hi-Tech offer good neutral filters for a reasonable price. Singh Ray also offer good filters but for a lot more money.<br>

The filter holder should be adjustable for the number of slots you want.</p>

[david_henderson]

<p>I have your lens/camera combination and use the 100mm filters. To me, the need for grads increases as lenses get wider and I really don't want anything that vignettes badly at 17mm stopped well down. A 84mm filter in combination with a holder that protrudes forward to some degree on a 77mm lens thread doesn't look comfortable to me and indeed my original decision was madewhen I was using a MF system with 67mm filter threads.</p>

<p>Whatever filter/holder system you buy you're going to need to buy the WA rings if you can get them and to cut/ screw off all but one filter slot. You're also going to need to take off any protection/uv filter you may usually use. </p>

<p>Screw-in grads. I have the B+W filter you mention and its a good filter for what it does. I use it exclusively with a MF rangefinder when after a dozen years I still haven't found a way of positioning rectangular grads accurately. Other than that, the rectangular product, despite that its nor glass, gets scratches and fingermarks easily, is just far, far better. I use the screw -in with my mamiya 7 because the alternative is none. </p>

<p>Hard or soft? It doesn't just depend on focal length, but on subject and brand too. Hitech "hard" are a softer transition than other brands I've seen. If you skyline is level or close to it then you need a hard edge because you'll note that the sky mostly is quite a bit brighter near the horizon. If you're in mountains or trees then a sift edge gives the opoortunity to take something out of the sky without leaving a nasty line across your photo. In general let me say that with FF digital getting such obvious grad lines is less of an issue than it was with more critical slide films- I mean with Velvia a 3 stop grad is well over half the films entire dynamic range. </p>

<p>Opinions on brands of grads vary. Some of it depends on whether you're using them for images that are going to stay in colour, for if you convert all your pictures to b&w colour casts don't matter much. In ascending order of price for resin systems you have Cokin, Hitech, Lee and Singh Ray. I don't know much about the latter since we don't have them in the UK and they are extremely expensive for something that is made from the same CR39 optical resin as all the others. Cokin have a reputation for colour casts , clumsy transitions and seem easier to scratch, but they are cheap and make cheap holders. Hitech and Lee are similar and indeed they both started as offshoots from Kodak many years ago with similar products. Lee seem to me to be a heavier gauge and are more expensive most places. Contrary to most peoples opinions I have seen lots of colour casts on Hitech (which I use). I buy them in sets from the factory in Wales, and send back anything that doesn't look neutral against a bright white background when I get it. I've seen obvious magenta casts on Lee filters too, and its apparent to me at least that since both organisations are equipped to measure "neutrality" their QA tolerances are simply wider than a critical photographer will find acceptable. So, either buy what you can see, or buy from a source that will accept a return/replace if you're you're not happy. </p>

<p>In the interests of positioning the grad correctly, I use a holder virtually all the time, unless with an odd lens like my 40mm Bronica PS with a filter thread of 95?mm. </p>

<p>The attached photograph is simply to demonstrate thet its possible to use your 17-40 lens on a FF Canon at a small aperture (f18)without vignetting. </p><div></div>

[david_henderson]

<p>Maybe I should add that the photograph above had a 3 stop hard edge Hitech ND grad fitted in a Hitech two slot holder and a wide angle connector ring.</p>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>Thanks to all, I really appreciate the info!</p>

<p>David, I see Hitech filters come in 85mm and 100x150mm. Are you using the larger size?</p>

[david_henderson]

<p>Yes, I use the 100mm size.</p>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>I've heard some mention of GND's benefitting from smaller aperture. Would that be just to help you preview, with depth-of-focus preview, or does it actually change the effect?</p>

[dbcooper]

<p>1. 4"/100mm doesn't vignette on any lenses I have that take filters, the widest being 17-35. Works fine with 12-24 on an APS-C camera, too. For vignetting, if the holder doesn't cause it, the filters won't either. A 'P' holder is cheap enough to try out forst, especially if you find one in a sale bin at a camera store.<br /> 2. Resin is resistant to bumps and bangs, but not so good with scratches. Not too good with salt spray...rinse resin filters in clear water very, very well before wiping. If you carry several, resin is a lot lighter to haul. Some are available only in glass, like Lee's Big Stopper.<br /> 3. Yup, at least on 'P' size. Dunno if they fixed it on X-Pro and Z-Pro. Color cast with 'P' filters is inconsistent, lot-to-lot. A friend of mine had one with a magenta cast that was killer on sunsets, so a cast isn't <em>always</em> undesirable, just 99.9% of the time.<br /> 4. I have one screw-on ND grad for packing an extremely light/small kit. It's limiting, horizon-wise, though.<br /> 5. Hard for flatter horizons, use soft otherwise. Smaller sensors make a hard grad appear not so hard - no point in getting soft grads for a G9/10 in my experience. Grade-wise, meter the scene.<br /> 6. The sky is supposed to be at least a <em>little</em> lighter than the ground for a more natural look, so don't use a grad that exactly evens the DR unless that's your intent. Don't forget you can insert them in the holder upside-down to lighten up part of the foreground if needed (this is where 1-stop grads are <em>very</em> useful). I've mixed/stacked them right-side up and upside-down for the same scene. You can also tilt the holder - grads don't have to be used perpendicular to level. ND grads can be very useful at night to cut down on the brightness of the moon, and used upside-down can help with overly bright moon reflections on water. Sunrises/sunsets can have a huge DR difference - look to darker reverse grads for that, or stack them to get more filter factor. Hitech is making reverse grads now, so Singh-Ray isn't the only ball game in town - you can tip me if that information just saved you money :) A strip ND and a regular grad make a combination you can't get anywhere else unless you custom-order, and it's adjustable! I've cut regular Cokin 'P' holders down to one slot (they make a WA one if you don't like DIY). With Lee, you can just take slots out as needed. Colored grads have a filter factor just like ND grads, and can be fun to play with. I got several <em>cheap</em> on *bay from folks selling out "to go digital".</p>

<p>Sorry if I got 'windy'...I'm 'up' today; the 70-200 VRII is 'out for delivery' on a big brown truck with rubber wheels. :)</p>

<p> </p>

[mendel_leisk]

<blockquote>

<p>Sorry if I got 'windy'...I'm 'up' today; the 70-200 VRII is 'out for delivery' on a big brown truck with rubber wheels. :)</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>You likely better stay leaned against your front door, LOL. In my experience, those guys do one gentle tap on the door, slap on the we-were-here-where-were-you sticker, and run.</p>

<p>And thanks for your tips. I'm expecting a big brown truck in a day or two also, the box is in town but taking a weekend break. I went with Hitech 4x5.5, a .6 soft tran and .9 hard tran., and the Hitech wide-angle holder/adapter.</p>

<p>At the last minute I deleted the B+W .6 GND screw-in I was considering, but kind of regret it. Will likely get one next time I do an order, depending on how it goes with the Hitech's. I still see the screw-in's as not as flexible, but handy in a pinch. My understanding is their transistions are <em>very</em> gradual.</p>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>Tried out my GND's a little, taking a few test shots out of my window at work: adjacent high rises, blue sky mixed with clouds. Mainly used the .6. With most shots I did a control shot with the filter pushed out of the way as much as possible (I guess that's easier when hand holding the filter...).</p>

<p>Anyway, they seem to be working as advertised. Loading up a pair of with/without shots in Bridge/ACR, I see something interesting: besides improved sky detail, the shadow areas open up. This, even though I've set exposure manually, and used the same values for both shots.</p>

<p>The reason in this case: I've set ACR to auto-adjust. While not necessarily the best approach, using GND in conjuction with ACR's auto-adjust means the software doesn't need to depress overall exposure/brightness in an attempt to recover blown highlight detail.</p>

<p>Ok, I'll post a couple of shots. The first is with soft transition .6 GND, starting roughly at the middle of frame), manual exposure and Adobe camera raw set to auto-adjust:</p><div></div>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>And the second shot, same manually set exposure values, and Adobe Camera Raw again set to auto-adjust. It looks like ACR depressed the overall exposure/brightness, attempting to recover sky detail. Note the increased darkness of the high rise fronts and parking garage area.</p><div></div>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>A few more with/without test shots. In each case a .9 hard edge Hitech filter was used, and exposure set at the outset manually and unchanged. Also, this time in Adobe Camera Raw I set it to a pre-set default adjustment, the same for each shot.</p><div></div>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>Without GND</p><div></div>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>Looking north with</p><div></div>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>And without</p><div></div>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>Even to my eye this looks a little over the top... Two stop and/or soft edge might be better here. One advantage of the hard edge: it's much easier to see the transition. With the soft transition I find I try to find the edge, then throw up my hands and just set it in the middle.</p>

<p>I currently have 2 stop soft tran and 3 stop hard. I'm likely going to order the inverse: 2 stop hard and 3 stop soft. I toyed with getting 1 stops as well. Both for very light adjustment and for finer tunable stacking of filters, but think I have to stop, budget is being blown.</p>

<p>I'm also likely going to pick up the screw-in B+W 2 stop gradual GND, I still think it's portability is worthwhile, and the soft grads seem very forgiving. Plus, might get a 1.8 (6 stop) plain ND, again screw-in B+W, for some daytime time exposure experiments.</p>

<p>Good fun!</p>