Just letting off some steam

[boinkphoto]

<p>Sometimes I'm inclined to believe there's a bit of "devils advocacy" here just for the sake of "devils advocacy".</p>

<p>I'm the guy who wants to be "Uncle Bob" but knows dang well he shouldn't so backs off. I back off because I know that the professional was hired to do a professional job and my interference doesn't help him/her get that job done. It doesn't matter if I know more than the "pro" - (s)he was hired, I was not. Injecting myself without prior agreement would be obnoxious and unfair.</p>

<p>Certainly no one would suggest that someone be allowed to randomly insert themselves to "help the band play"? Or go into the kitchen to help the cooks make dinner for the reception? Or help the priest on his liturgy? Like the photographer each of these people have roles and any "help" they receive needs to be arranged clearly beforehand, regardless of any relation to the bride/groom. Sure it's their wedding, but they hired you for <strong>your </strong>"art" after all.</p>

<p>I think for your own sake perhaps a little respectful assertiveness could have helped, but I also think you have good reason to be annoyed and express your annoyance. Given that this is a community of photographers of similar ilk, I would havehonestly expected more sympathy, but it seems oddly lacking in a number of cases.</p>

<p>Finally, yes, having a sense of humor about it has its advantages I suppose and just brushing it off and moving on may be the least stress inducing tack, but if one can't, I certainly understand the wish to vent with your peers.</p>

[boinkphoto]

<p>@Leo C<br>

Totally agree...</p>

[railphotog]

<p>I did part time film weddings for about 25 years, but got away from it. The only wedding I've done with my digital gear was for the wife's nephew. So I was an actual "uncle Bob"!</p>

<p> </p>

[janet cull]

<p>Leo, I get your point. One time I assisted a more-experienced-than-I wedding photographer. She would set up a shot for friends and family to take, then asked them to step aside and let her work. She did that for them several times throughout, but when they stepped in her way to do their own thing she didn't hesitate to say, "they have paid good money for me to do this, so I'm asking you to honor them and let me do my job". <br>

Yep. You're probably right - charge more. </p>

[focuslightstudio]

<p>Thanks for your support Matt & Janet. It's much appreciated.</p>

[surfidaho]

<p>Howdy!</p>

<p>Here is what I tell Uncle Bob's who shoot over my shoulder, or get in my way:</p>

<p>"If you are taking pictures at the same time as me, the people are going to look at you instead of me, because they love you, and I'm just some guy they found on the Internet. And that's going to ruin my shots, which will make everyone unhappy. So if you could please put your camera away during the formals, I'd really appreciate it".</p>

<p>By using this verbage, you make the person feel important, while at the same time tactfully and tastefully shutting him/her down. No drama, no conflict.</p>

<p>Later,</p>

<p>Paulsky</p>

[focuslightstudio]

<p>Thanks Paul.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Leo--read the linked thread within the thread Richard posted. The answers to your questions are there. Richard's brother in law was sold a package (which included photography) deal by the DJ, and the photographer's work, people skills and referrals were all <strong>not</strong> factors. That, combined with Richard's own experience with wedding photography, was why he was told to be the unspoken back up. So the situation is a bit different than you are thinking.</p>

[george_ferguson]

<p>Set some rules with your customer before the shoot. If someone breaks those rules then make it known to them that those rules are in place and to please respect them.</p>

<p>However, if a friend or relative wants to take pictures at a wedding, there is no harm unless they are preventing you from giving your customer the service they've paid for. Leaving cameras on tables at the reception for people to take pictures use to be common at weddings. Now people just bring their own camera, take pictures, and email the best ones to the couple later. And they are higher quality pictures to boot. I think its great! Sometimes it's the casual shots by friends and family that capture some of the best moments of a wedding event.</p>

<p>And if a friend or family is inspired to be a professional photographer by taking photos at a wedding then that's great too!</p>

[lee_richards2]

<p>I think Leo has a great point and I do not blame him a bit for letting off steam. We all can tell him 'how he should have done it' but we can all learn from his experience. </p>

<p>I read Richard's thread and see how he was a help to the BG. However. A single event does not a trend make. He could just as easily been wasting his time 'backing up' a seasoned pro. And by backing up I mean annoying, getting in the way and violating his contract. </p>

<p>I was a newspaper photographer for years and know how annoying it can be for someone to horn in on your shots. You have a job to do and they are making it much harder not only on me but my subject as well. In this case there is the very real possibility that this yahoo impacted on the quality of the shots Leo got. We have all seen the fading smiles and careless expressions that people get after the 10th flash goes off in thier face. Couple that with some peoples natural aversion to being photographed and this guy could certainly have caused Leo to achieve less than his usual product. </p>

<p>It was easy as a newspaper guy to deal with these interlopers. Sometimes I could and would simply say, "Look. If you want this event in the paper you have to get out of my way." I became fairly adept in dealing with the Frances Ford Cousin Jacks I often encountered. <br>

Certainly it would have been fine to have a word with the guy and even enlist his aid by giving him assignments. That being said we put the single shooter clauses in our contracts for a reason. I probably would have been nice at first and not so nice to this guy if necessary. </p>

<p>One of the learning points for all of us is that in the pre-wedding briefing I hope we all have with the interested parties we make this point politely and firmly. In this day of cell phone cameras everyone is a photographer. Nevertheless we can head-off some of the probleems like this by nipping it in the bud.</p>

[matt_needham]

<p>I've always sort of poo-pooed these complaints about Uncle Bob. In hundreds of weddings I've always been able to work around and/or out run guests that show up with a SLR. Also it's been my experience that they tend to be respectful of the hired pro, and try to stay out of my way.</p>

<p>The other day I finally experienced a real Uncle Bob. The bride's parents asked if it was okay if their friends also took photos. I said okay, and three people pulled out flash brackets. Two of these folks at least stayed in their seats during the ceremony. The one guy was running all over, getting in many of my wide shots, standing in front of other guests, using a flash (the officiator requested no flash), etc... Afterward the officiator complained to me thinking the guy was with me.</p>

<p>The other two photographers approached me early in the reception, said hi, and expressed concern that they didn't want to get in my way. We chatted gear for a minute. They seemed like nice folks, and I barely noticed their shooting the rest of the evening. Several times I tried to get the attention of the other guy. He refused eye contact, and actually walked away when I said "Hello." The rest of the evening he was my shadow. I'd back up, and bump into him. If I started moving in one direction, he'd jump up from his table and head that way too. I kept trying to catch his eye, or start a conversation with him, but he worked hard to avoid it, all the while watching what I was doing like a hawk. If he saw me head for the cake, he had to shoot it at that moment too. If I found an angle he tried to get it too, even when there really wasn't room for two. It was annoying and tiring, and while I got the job done I feel he affected the wedding photography in a negative way. I hope it'll be a few hundred more weddings before I run into a guy like that again. It was a pain in the butt.</p>

<p>Dear potential Uncle Bobs. I understand that you love photography, and I'm sure the B & G will enjoy your photographs. They did pay me a lot of money to shoot the wedding. I don't know why they didn't hire you. Maybe they just wanted your company as a guest? Anyway there's no reason we can't both get wonderful photos. If you really want to do the B & G a favor look for photo opportunities where and when I'm not shooting. I can't get everything. The bride will love you for it, and there will be more than enough chances for you to get photos of the B & G without me getting in your way or you getting in mine. Please show me the respect of speaking to me when I speak to you. I'm friendly. Maybe we can coordinate? Have fun. Please don't be a pain in the butt.</p>

<p> </p>

[Member69643]

<p>Let's not forget to mention that "Uncle Bob" is going to GIVE the bride & groom the photos he took. If Bob is taking the same pics as you are, being your shadow, you won't get any photo sales from the wedding because they'll already have the digital files for free, and free to do whatever they want with them. Everyone knows it. The bride does. The groom does. So does uncle Bob. You as a photographer have to realize it too. If you rely on print sales, having an uncle Bob shoot with you is like giving away your income.</p>

<p>The honest answer to Uncle Bob, if you rely on print sales, is "I appreciate that you'd like to take photos, but I make my living doing this and selling prints. If you take the pictures too and give the photos away, they'll have no reason to buy mine. And I will go broke and my children will starve and my dog will get sick."</p>

<p>The only other answer is charge ALL that you need to make a profit up-front.</p>

[richard_miller5]

<p>And lets be realistic here. Except for the "formals" I bet there were dozens of camera's at every single wedding. People taking pictures they want, of family and friends. Sorry about the lack of print sales, but thats life.</p>

[ianivey]

<p>ROFL @Wolfeye. I'm convinced it's the part about your dog getting sick that clinches it in the mind of the person you're asking to sit down. Who cares about you or your kids, but your <em>dog? "</em>Oh, wow, man, I didn't realize you had a sickly dog. Sorry about that. I'll just go over there, out of your way, and photograph the cake." >slinks off<</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I'm afraid the Uncle Bob problem will get much worse, sorry to say. Which is why I classify Uncle Bobs into two general groups.</p>

<p>The first group is comprised of people who want to 'be' the wedding photographer. They may even aspire to do wedding photography professionally and are trying to scrape together a portofolio. Or they may just be having a great time playing the part of the wedding photographer with their new DSLR. It's an ego thing. The 'doing' is the fun part, so trying to dissuade this kind of Uncle Bob is difficult. One of their motiviations might even be to upstage the pro--they dream of having the couple say that their photos were better than the pro's, so they will put an album together to give to the couple.</p>

<p>The second group is comprised of people who just want to have fun taking pictures of their families and friends and aren't necessarily interested in 'being' the wedding photographer. It is not an ego thing but a self expression thing. They may have a shiny new DSLR, or point and shoot, and they may practice photography as a hobby, but the basic motivation is just to have fun. They won't necessarily be giving the couple an album of photos.</p>

<p>The second group is easy to deal with. Most are trying to stay out of your way anyway. All you need do is have a chat with them if they do anything that impacts your work and they usually are fine thereafter. Most of the time, you don't even have to have the chat. During formals, give them a minute to take their pictures, and everything will be fine. They'll think you are a great guy for letting them take their pictures.</p>

<p>The first group is harder to deal with because of the ego involvement. Matt's Uncle Bob, just above, is obviously in this group. If you spot one before the ceremony starts, it is much better, because you can approach and probe for more information. Some are slippery, like Matt's and don't want to talk to you because they know you will try to determine their motivations and to control you. Others will approach you first, with the 'staying out of your way' line, but you can usually tell which group they belong in.</p>

<p>The reason for finding out before the ceremony is so you can control where they are during the ceremony. If the line of communication is open, you can tell them exactly where you don't want to see them, or ask that they photograph from their pew ('because a pew seat up front is something a pro can't have'). The key is to involve them in 'the adventure', and make them think they are part of your pro team. Now, it sounds a bit subversive, but actually, this is a win/win situation, and you may even get some very nice images from them. I am not proud this way--I will include others' images in any album I put together for my clients.</p>

<p>I will even let them shoot behind me (to one side), and tell them to get the same formal shot, but with the subjects looking at me (way from their camera). Repeat as appropriate throughout the day--controlling, yet pumping them up at the same time.</p>

<p>If they become hostile, and some just don't want anything to do with you--this is the time to speak to whomever is in charge--usually the bride's parents (who are hosts). I have yet to resort to this, but I would not hesitate.</p>

[davebell]

<p>It all comes down to being assertive and taking control. I would never allow myself to be pestered to the degree you describe, not even by the bride's father. You have to be firm, yet very polite. If they persist, then have a word with the bride and groom and explain the situation - I am sure they will agree and the situation will be resolved.</p>

[lobalobo]

<p>Most of these posts assume that the bride would have sided with "Uncle Bob" but I'm not so sure. Although the bride or other member of the wedding party might not want to confront a close friend or family member, for fear of offending him, I can't imagine that they'd hire a professional photographer and then want one of the guests to interfere with his work and put the photos at risk.</p>

<p>I speak here as a guest who sometimes brings a camera to events of close friends or family. At a recent bar-mitzvah, for example, I brought a stereo rig I built out of two point-and-shoot cameras; the day after the event I showed up at the host's house with a stack of stereo photos and a pocket viewer, something everyone seemed to enjoy and that was not a substitute for the images the pro captured. At the event, though, I made a point of staying as far away as possible from the professional photographer for fear of interfering. Frankly, I wasn't particularly concerned about the photographer's feelings, though perhaps I should have been. I was concerned that my hosts, and close friends, would be angry with me, whether they would say something to me or not.</p>

<p>So I think that the original poster showed admirable, and perhaps unnecessary constraint. Certainly if I'm fortunate enough to be hosting my daughter's wedding some day and I hire a professional photographer, I'll want him to tell Uncle Bob to get out of the way, to save me the trouble and embarrassment of doing so.</p>

[lou korell]

<p>Sometimes it's tough when you have someone in your way who thinks they have priority. I had one situation where I was shooting during a ceremony and the "perfect" vantage point was clear to me. Just before I moved there someone took up that position and started shooting. It was too late to try and take that position without disrupting the ceremony so I had to just find another spot. Some photographers feel they can do anything to shoot what <strong>they</strong> want to shoot. If you ever feel that way, stop and think before you react. You are not a family member or guest. This is <strong>their</strong> event. You are hired to record the event - not to create it!<br>

Diplomacy is the key towards diffusing uncomfortable situations that limit or interfere with your flow of shooting. When someone is in my way, I give them a big smile and they usually get it. If not a polite exchange of explaining what you are trying to do is preferable to being more aggressive. People usually understand why you are there. They just need a little reminder sometimes.<br>

I've never run into any real hostility at weddings and after fourteen years of shooting them I hope I can remain that way. Some folks have real horror stories and I always cringe when I hear them. I always wonder if there would have been any other way to deal with the situation, but I sure hope I never have to be in that situation.<br>

When you talk about guests with cameras, I did a wedding where the groom's family were all pro or semi-pro photographers. They weren't wedding pros though so they didn't use a family member to shoot the wedding. That of course did not stop every one of them from bringing their latest state-of-the-art gear to the wedding and finding the best spots to shoot from, which as you may have guessed puts them into my sights for a lot of important shots. But, I still had to shoot. I think in that case the couple will see a lot of people shooting in their pictures, but they probably expected it given the people attending.</p>

<p> </p>

[lobalobo]

<blockquote>

<p>Some photographers feel they can do anything to shoot what <strong>they</strong> want to shoot. If you ever feel that way, stop and think before you react. You are not a family member or guest. This is <strong>their</strong> event.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, not really. As I argued above, it is the host's event and while it seems correct to me that a photographer should not put his interests above those of the people who hired him, it strikes me that the hosts would not be happy with the professional photographer who let guests get in the way of the work that the pro was hired to do. So in Lou's story about the guest who took the perfect vantage point, I don't feel sorry for him; I feel sorry for the hosts who lost the chance of the professional quality photo from that vantage point at that moment. (Amateurs, like me, for example, either trust the auto setting of their cameras even when they shouldn't or know enough not to but don't know what adjustment to make; so if there can be only one person with the perfect vantage point at a crucial moment of an event to be recorded, you want a pro there precisely because an amateur lacks the ability to get it right when it counts.)</p>

[mike_g11]

<p>Hi Leo,<br>

That is one of the many reasons I do VERY few weddings. I have done a few and explained when they sign the contract that I will in fact stop shooting if others folks are creating issues for me. I also remind the bride and groom of that before the ceremony.<br>

To prevent the "Uncle Bobs" during the formals, I do this. I get everyone together and say "that was such a fantastic ceremony! While I get some special gear out, I will give you all 10 minutes or so to take whatever pictures you would like. The lovely couple hired me to take some priceless images of them so once I start, please, no one else use their cameras, it is distracting to both those in the pictures and is a distraction to me. As Julie and John deserve my very best, please help me to deliver that to them by not using your cameras once I start." You would be shocked at how well this works. I am not actually getting any special equipment but may change flash batteries to appear that I am doing something so the bride and groom look at me, they may think I am actually preparing. When I am ready to work, I even smile and say "Last call" with a smile. They cannot say they did not get their chance to shoot, they do. They seldom know how to get great images, even most Uncle Bobs. So they don't get the same stuff I shoot.<br>

I have actually had a couple Uncle Bobs and Aunt Suzy persist to take pictures while I am trying to work. I smile at the bride/groom and then look at the person using their camera and sit down, putting my camera down. No comments need to be made. The scowl by the bride usually does the job for me. if the bride's scowl doesn't work, her instructions usually will. <br>

I refuse to create a scene or resort to harsh words. I do agree you must take control, I just choose to do so subtly.</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>The key to handling situations like this comes from people skills. There really isn't any way to quantify tact and experience into a forum thread......complaining about Uncle Bobs and pushy Hall managers isn't very helpful. It's a wedding, no 2nd chances and no excuses.</p>

[cameron_erroch2]

<p>I had Uncle Bob at my last wedding and he was a right toerag of a guy but one needs a calm head and get on with the job in hand.</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>Wolfeye,<br>

While point and shoots and prosumer DSLRs are getting better and better, I would still say it's unlikely their shot will be the "same" as yours. Hopefully you know your stuff enough that you are perfectly exposing things and getting just the right angles. I gave my DSLR to my aunt at my wedding and said shoot away at anything, and told my hired pro that if she got in the way of his shot to just tell her to back down. While she often "took the same shot as him" I can tell you that by no means were they the same shot. His were better lit with his pocketwizard controlled strobes, and were in perfect focus 95/100. Hers on the other hand were in focus about 75% of the time, and she used the pop-up flash on the camera, so you can imagine what the lighting was like. So in the end, most of the shots, I liked the pro's better and that's what's in my album. But at the same time, there are some shots she got that I adore and the hired photog didn't get. And even if the uncle bob's weren't there at all, I'd still bet that print sales would be lower than they used to be. With the advent of social media, people share the files, not so much printed out photos any more. I'm a tad bit ashamed to admit it, but we got married on 9/12/2009 and we still don't have anything more printed out than the proofs, but the shots ARE up on my facebook page.</p>

[janet cull]

<p>>I'd back up, and bump into him.< <br>

Yeah, hard!<br>

Once I did back up and stumble over someone who was trying to get the photograph. I didn't try to avoid her, but smiled and said something nice like - "oops. better move off, I'd hate to hurt you and me both while I work". I don't remember that it worked. </p>

[Member69643]

<p>Vail,</p>

<p>People have different criteria on what makes a picture a "keeper". If Uncle Bob's photos are just "ok" and the pro pics are very good, she'll take uncle Bob's because those are free. It's now VERY easy for anyone with a shred of skill to take great photos with a DSLR , a kit lens, and a flash.</p>