Suggestions for P&S for times when you don't want to lug around a DSLR

[bill_tuthill]

The ZS6 is essentially the same as the ZS7 without GPS, no movie mode button (instead you have to rotate the dial) and movies are only in MPEG (no AVCHD lite). The older ZS3 actually has higher image quality because of lower pixel density, and no real drawbacks versus the ZS6.

 

If a compact superzoom is what you want, the Fuji F70EXR or replacement F80EXR (27-270 zoom) works better indoors and in low light.

 

Nobody mentioned it, but the G11 accepts your Canon flash accessories. However it is not a pocketable camera, and long zoom is modest. The Samsung EX1 is great on spec sheets, but I have seen some odd defects in its images, so the jury is still out.

[john_tran14]

<p>Definitely Panasonic DMC FZ-20. That is the latest camera with 12X zoom and straight max aperture F2.8. No other brand ever have straight 2.8 (or faster) with 12X zoom (or longer).<br>

It has full manual control, all auto modes and hot shoe too</p>

[davesimpson]

<p> I went thru similar exercise at the end of last year, nearly identical circumstances. To me, the G11 felt comfortable and easy to use. I also liked the rugged feel and the manual knobs seemed intuitive. I wanted a travel camera, in my case this usually translates to a camera small enough to fit in a coat or blazer pocket, not necessarily a shirt pocket, so the G11 works well for me. Travel to me also means people pictures, so a "real" flash with a modest amount of manual control can be an occasional need, the ability to slap on my existing Canon flash was a consideration as well. The ability to flip the LCD up and out has let me grab a couple of shots that would not have been without this feature. The optical viewfinder, while not very accurate in framing, is also a nice feature for travel photography - it works well enough for landscapes and helps brace the camera better than holding a typical P&S at arms length in low light. The raw feature gives some flexibility in terms of post processing for the occasional larger print. For years my main "serious" travel camera had a 35-105 firmly attached 99% of the time, so the 5x range feels like a bonus.<br>

I also agonized over the cost. It replaced a couple of previous P&S that were less expensive, but also less satisfying and occasionally less useful. If something seriously better comes along next year, I imagine I'll get at least a few $ for it in trade, while the $200 cameras are essentially worthless the moment they leave the store.<br>

Most importantly, the G11 has been living in my computer bag ever since and logged several dozen trips by air, validating the old adage that the "best" camera is the one you have with you!<br>

If you haven't already, go handle one in the store. You'll know if it is right or not in just a few minutes.<br>

Good luck with whatever you decide!</p>

 

[jamie_robertson2]

<p>I've messed around with digital compacts before and the vast majority ended up being a complete waste of money. They're acceptable in bright daylight but if you need to shoot with a shallow depth of field or if you need to shoot in low light then they're next to useless. I no longer use them at all... ever.</p>

<p>Take my advice and save yourself a few hundred quid/bucks, get a used Olympus MjuII (Stylus Epic) or other similarly decent compact camera. They're full frame, dirt cheap with outstanding image quality (providing you select the appropriate film of course).</p>

<p>The only exceptions to the nasty digital compact arena are the latest micro 4/3rds compacts and of course the Leica M8/M9.</p>

[bobsimsphoto]

<p>I was recently in the same boat as you. I am a pro photographer. I currently own a 20D, 40D, 7D, and a 5D. I too was looking for a smaller camera to bring on those occasions that an SLR was either too large or too obtrusive. After much research I went with the G11 and could not have happier! I carry it with me at all times and am very pleased with the results. </p>

<p>Bob!</p>

[Andy Collins]

<p>I've tried numerous compacts, mostly PowerShots and while I liked several features on them, I was always disappointed in the printed results at 8x10 size. I also did not like the ISO performance much above 400 although they were getting better in recent models. With the G11/S90, I'm quite happy with the way they perform. I use a 7D and a 40D (plus a 1vHS for film shots) but lately have been grabbing either the G11 or S90 a lot more than I thought I would. I really enjoy using both of these cameras, and I'm pleased with the printed results as well as high ISO performance. I've seen some pretty impressive posts on other forums (fredmiranda in the Canon forum) of ISO3200 portraits taken with the S90. I don't consider these cameras to be substitutes for my SLRs in any way, but they make nice compact alternatives when I don't need all of the firepower of the SLRs.</p>

[michael_yu2]

<p>I just found out about the Canon SD4000 IS P&S camera. It may not match all the features in Canon S90, but it has some nice features. It has a fast lens, f2.0 like S90, ISO is up to 3200, high-speed burst as well as taking video at 1280-720 at 30fps. What it does not have are manual exposure, only A & S priority, does not take Raw. I really like to get comments on this camera since the review is not available.</p>

[bill_tuthill]

The SD4000 (IXUS 300) lens is only f/5.3 at telephoto [sic] 105mm, you call that fast? It uses the same Sony CMOS sensor as in the HX5V, TX5, Fuji HS10, and Casio FH100, all of which seem like better cameras. Seems severely overpriced at $349, especially with the Samsung TL500 (EX1) available for $400 with rebate. I could be wrong! Check links from 1001noisycameras.com and let me know.

[jbg]

<p>If you want to spend around $200 preferably, decent low light ability and long zoom, when it comes to compact cameras I'd go for Fuji F70 EXR.<br>

It's a truly small camera that can fit your jeans or shirt pockets.</p>

<p>Canon S90 is probably the best ultra-small compact at the moment, but it's expensive compared to F70.</p>

[Andy Collins]

<p>The sensor in the SD4000 is also significantly smaller (relatively speaking) than the one in the S90--1/2.3" in the SD4000 versus 1/1.7" in the S90--and as Bill hinted at, the lens isn't the exact same lens. I would imagine that the same number of pixels on a smaller sensor and no difference in the processor would lead to higher noise than the S90. The SD4000 does have some attractive features though; the higher frame rate does it for me but that's about it.</p>

[jay_p.]

<p>Thank you all for your responses. Maybe this will help narrow things down:</p>

<p>If I were going to bring my 7D with me on the trip (and not get another camera), all I would bring is my Tamron 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD VC (Vibration Compensation) Aspherical (IF) Macro Zoom Lens and, probably and my Speedlight 580EX II. (Of course, I would bring 4 spare AA batteries for the Speedlight, as well as the charger for my 7D's battery, and the battery grip with 2 fully charged batteries.) So, I'm looking for something that will, as close as possible, replace that equipment to lighten my load (and take less space in my luggage).</p>

<p>The Panasonic ZS6, I think, comes close to replacing that set up, but I suspect the G11 or even S90 would shoot better quality photos and be sharper in lower light situations. In addition, the G11 has the advantage of giving me the option of bringing my Speedlight with me (though I would probably use my 430EX instead of the 580EX II only because the 430 is a bit smaller) and also has an optical viewfinder, which I like. Of course, neither the S90 nor the G11 has nearly the focal range of the ZS6, and the G11 is $200 more than the ZS6 ($240 versus $450). Am I wrong about any of this?</p>

<p>I certainly am willing to consider other P&S cameras and will take a look at the S90 and the Fuji F70 EXR. I don't see the point in looking at the Panasonic DMC FZ-20. Although the hotshoe is nice, I don't want to have to worry about compatibility issues (can a Canon Speedlight be used with it, or would I need to buy a Panasonic flash?).</p>

<p>BTW, for whatever it is worth, I do not want to buy a camera that uses something other than SD or CF. I already have plenty of CF cards that I use with my 7D and 40D, and my wife's P&S and my kids' P&S use SD cards. I don't want to through another type of memory card in the mix. Also, manual modes (aperture priority and shutter priority) are musts for me. If the P&S doesn't offer those modes, I'm not interested.</p>

<p>Thank you again for all your input. This sure is an interesting discussion.<br>

<br /></p>

[lachaine]

<p>Not that I'm recommending any particular camera, and I know it doesn't meet your requirements for long zoom and hotshoe... but to the "P&S" pooh-poohers out there, I have a bit of experience behind me with cameras, and the S90 has been astounding me with its abilities now for 4 months. It's a superb low-light street shooter, and I have no reservations about saying that. I didn't buy the G11 and so I haven't tried that one, but if it's anything like the S90, you can't go wrong. The only negative against the G11 is that the S90 has a 1 stop faster lens at the wide end. I gotta say, that for me, lens speed is the real kicker feature.</p>

<p>The new SD4000 may seem similarly spec'd, but it has a small reversed (backlit in Sonyspeak) CMOS sensor. The S90 and G11 have a significantly larger sensor, and it's a CCD. Personally, during my buy and exchange process leading up to getting the S90, I wasn't too impressed with overall image quality from this backlit CMOS sensor on another camera. The only advantage it has over the larger CCD is fast, almost DSLR-level continuous shutter performance and your typical lousy-quality but well-marketable HDTV video. What's the point of having HD video that doesn't handle motion well? The S90 video is not HDTV, but it is otherwise excellent, in my opinion, as one would expect from a high-quality CCD. The S90 and G11 are photographers' compact still cameras, not gimmicky toys.</p>

<p>I'm actually more of a Nikon fan, to be honest, but this little S90 may have changed that. Unfortunately, the influence of gadget-hounds on the market may ensure that what makes it great will not be retained in future models.</p>

[jay_p.]

<p>Pierre,</p>

<p>I've read some excellent reviews of the S90, but a common thread is a complaint about the rear control ring turning too easily and the camera being difficult to hold (too small). Has this been your experience? </p>

<p>I will say that one of the reviews said the S90 excels at macro shots (no wonder, with the f/2.0 lens!), and I love to shoot macro. Consequently, that is definitely attracts me to the S90. OTOH, I've got to consider whether it will give me the flexibility (in terms of focal length) that I am used to.</p>

[bill_tuthill]

From everything you have said, I urge you to buy the ZS6 before the sale ends.The only problem is low light and that can be mitigated by onboard flash or pseudo-tripod. In good light, image quality differences between the ZS6 and G11 are not significant. In some ways (color fringing, distortion) the ZS6 is better.

[jbg]

<p>Pierre Lachaine was spot on when it comes to S90. I tried S90, G11, F70/200, ZS3 and LX3 (another great camera that shoots RAW) and S90 wins in almost everything, except few things you mentioned yourself J. Polk: rear control ring and that it's too small to hold easily.<br>

IQ of S90 is simply the best, plus it shoots RAW and has manual controls. G11 is as good, but it's noticeably bigger and won't fit your pocket. If size between S90 and G11 is not an issue, go for G11; but if you want a truly pocketable camera, you can't beat S90 at the moment (June 2010.).</p>

<p>Not sure if it's ok for me to post these links here, but mentioned problems (rear control ring and small size) with S90 can be solved: http://www.lensmateonline.com/ and/or http://www.kleptography.com/rf/#camera_s90 .</p>

<p>Panasonic's are known to handle low light situations badly and that was my experience too. In good light (daylight, sunny day), they are simply amazing: colors, details... I just love the general look of Panasonic ZSx line in good light. HD video is also noticeably better compared to mentioned Canon models.</p>

<p>Still, best bang for the buck is probably Fuji F70 EXR (or F200 EXR - larger, slightly better sensor, but limited zoom range).</p>

<p>And to end, look at this gallery: http://nickbland.zenfolio.com/ . That guy has produced amazing results with some of the mentioned cameras: Canon S90, Fuji F200 EXR, Panasonic LX3. You can see there how capable these "little buggers" can be in good hands.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

[tom_mann1]

<p>Can someone pls. say a few words on the menu structure / user interface of the P&S's being discussed in this thread. Specifically, one of the things which really bugs me about many current P&S's are menus / user interfaces which:</p>

 

<ul>

<li>change completely depending on the shooting mode or how you arrived at a particular place in the menu tree; </li>

<li>show only cryptic symbols with either no text or unreadable tiny text; </li>

<li>have no consistent ways to back out where you are on the menu tree; </li>

<li>have the functions that I use most frequently buried deep in the menu tree; </li>

<li>seem to have been designed for kids used to texting with 2 thumbs at 90 mph.</li>

</ul>

<p>I went into Best Buy the other night and looked over the current crop of Point and Shoots. In spite of owning every manner of camera since 1964, programmed computers since the same year, use highly sophisticated software (eg, finite element modeling, EM wave modeling, Photoshop, etc.) for both work and fun, there were only a few P&S cameras that I could pick up and use on anything other than the "idiot" mode within a minute or two. </p>

<p>Because of the above preferences, I'm leaning towards the G11 because it seems to come closest to having dedicated knobs for common functions, but it is a bit large, and this defeats the idea of always having it with you. </p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

<p>Tom M</p>

<p> </p>

[Andy Collins]

<p>I went to an airshow this weekend and took my 7D with the 70-200/2.8IS mounted on it. In the past I would have had another body with a wide lens mounted but this year I just took the G11 instead of a 2nd body. I was very pleased and between the two all of my needs were met. The 28-140 lens on the G11 is a nice walk around range and the lens itself is excellent. Also, the video on the G11, while not HD, is still really good. The 7D/G11 combo (or any camera/G11 combo) is a very nice set up.</p>

<p><strong>J. Polk</strong>--The rear control dial solution from lensmateonline.com works very well. For a camera to carry around in your pocket, nothing beats the S90 in my opinion. It's a modern day, digital Olympus XA, maybe even better!</p>

[don_essedi]

<p>"Can someone pls. say a few words on the menu structure / user interface of the P&S's being discussed in this thread"</p>

<p>I've got a Panasonic FZ30 and the menus (and controls) are the best I've found. I don't know if Panasonic continued with the 30's menus in later cameras, but if they did, it is a point in their p&s favor.</p>

 

[photo_galleries]

<p>Bite the bullet and spend the money. Get an Oly E-P2 with a 14-42mm lens. An M4/3 will blow away any of the P&S digicams.</p>

<p> </p>

[jay_p.]

<p>Well, this afternoon I stopped at Best Buy and actually checked out a few of these cameras (thank heaven we still have some brick and mortar stores). Specifically, I looked at the Canon G11 ($450 on sale), the Canon S90, the Canon SX20 ($350 on sale), the Canon SX120 IS ($180 on sale), the Canon SX210 IS ($300 on sale), and the Panasonic ZS5 (they did not have either the ZS6 or the ZS7; the price of the ZS5 was $280, which is silly because Costco has the ZS6, as well as a case and a 2GB SD card, for $240). They did not carry the Fuji F70 EXR.</p>

<p>The more I played with the different cameras, the more confused I got. I very, very much liked the focal length, the vari-angle LCD, the optical viewfinder, the f/2.8-5.7 aperture, and the hotshoe of the SX20. Moreover, the SX20's price was $100 less than the G11, which also was attractive. However, the SX20 is much closer in size to a DSLR so I put the SX20 out of the running.</p>

<p>Although I like the large aperture on the S90, I don't like the limited focal length. For the type of shooting I do, I just don't think I would be happy with a 3.8X optical zoom. Likewise, I don't think I would be happy with the 5X zoom on the G11, nor do I really want to spend $450 (just having a hard time justifying purchasing another camera, let alone one that costs $450).</p>

<p>I can't now remember why, but for some reason, I nixed the SX120 IS. In hindsight, I can't figure out why I put it out of the running. It has a good focal length (actually goes to 360mm in 35mm equivalent whereas the ZS6 only goes to 300mm). In addition, it has s slightly faster lens than the ZS6 (f/2.8 (W) - f/4.3 (T)). I will need to go back and look at the SX120 IS again.</p>

<p>At the end of my trip, I was stuck debating between the ZS5 and the SX210 IS. I very much liked the 28-392 mm (35 mm equivalent) focal length of the SX210. Moreover, I found the SX210's controls far more intuitive than the ZS5's (perhaps this is only because I am used to Canon controls). However, when I compared a photo I took on the ZS5 and one I took on the SX210, the ZS5's photo was much clearer (crisper). Granted, it was only one sample photo on each camera, and the settings were not all identical; however, I'm pretty sure the ISO on the ZS5 was actually higher (1,000?) compared to the one on the SX210. </p>

<p>I ran out of time when I was at Best Buy so my plan is to go back to Best Buy in the next day or two and to look again at the SX210, the SX120, and the ZS5 (knowing that if I go with a Panasonic, I'll actually get the ZS6 from Costco). If we limit discussion to those three models, what input do you have now?</p>

<p>(Keith L, I actually looked at the Olympus E-P2. It's more money than I want to spend, and I'm afraid it will just cause me to spend even more on additional glass, etc., that I really don't need. :-) ).</p>

[oofoto]

<p>You might to see here re 210:<br>

<a href="http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=35261940">http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=35261940</a><br>

<a href="http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=35307046">http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=35307046</a></p>

 

[john_macpherson]

<blockquote>

<p ><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=4714311">Tom Mann</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/2rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Jun 15, 2010; 02:57 p.m.<br>

Can someone pls. say a few words on the menu structure / user interface of the P&S's being discussed in this thread.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I recently got a Ricoh GRD3 and am very very impressed with the user interface and menu system - it is very easily navigated - uses proper words rather than symbols for most stuff, can have various combinations of settings applied to presets on the top dial - My1, My2, My3, and these can be named in the menu, changed easily, overriden at will etc. The various functions can be applied to different buttons as you choose to suit your style of shooting. In short its very usable and should be required reading for other menu designers. I also have a Canon G9 and good though its menu is, its not as good as the Ricoh.</p>

[jay_p.]

<p>Thanks, Paul. Interesting comparisons between the S90 and SX210. Like many of the posters there, I sure wish the S90 had the zoom range of the SX210, but I guess we can't have everything (but why not?). The S90's limited focal range is just killing. Given that I am constantly wishing I could shoot longer, I have a feeling I won't be happy with it, which is why I am now debating between the SX210, the SX120, and the ZS6. For me, the best thing about the dpreview forums you led me to is that it reminding me about the Imaging Resource site, which I had totally forgotten about. It's nice to be able to see some controlled side by side comparisons.</p>

[bill_tuthill]

The SX210 is a competent camera. The imaging-resource.com Comparometer shows the ZS7 has less color fringing so images look cleaner, but otherwise it's a wash. I don't know why you'd pay $70 more for a SX210 than the ZS6, but if you like it...

 

Despite its low cost the SX120 probably won't make you happy. The lens doesn't zoom very wide (maybe you don't care, using a 28 with APS-C) but worse, shutter lag approaches one second. Even the slowpoke Yashica T4 Super wasn't that bad! The SX210 is about twice as fast to autofocus, and 1.5x as fast to power on.

[Andy Collins]

<p>What eliminated all of the PowerShots besides the G11/S90 is their smaller sensor. That makes a difference in image quality, particularly at higher ISOs.</p>