Where I work

[dawsonjm]

<p>I thought that I would share a few photos of where I work in eastern Oregon. This is a coal fired electric generating plant, and I have been here since its beginning, nearly 32 years. These are just a few of the photos I have taken over the years, these just this week. We are shut down for maintenance, thus I have more time, and the roof doesn't shake like it does when we are operating. </p>

<p>I don't like the inevitable pollution, greenhouse gases, etc. that we produce, but it has been a good job that someone will do, so it has kept the lights on around the west and at home. Hopefully we will have better alternatives soon.<br>

This first photo does illustrate an alternative that is becoming very common around rural America, and it also is an example of the story I have seen circulating around the internet about a massive wind leak at a windmill farm. I don't know if it caused any damage.</p><div></div>

[dawsonjm]

<p>Another, from the generating plant.</p><div></div>

[dawsonjm]

<p>A really nice sunset with storm clouds.</p><div></div>

[dawsonjm]

<p>A view of the coal storage yard from the roof of the boiler, 300 feet up.</p><div></div>

[dawsonjm]

<p>Storm clouds at sunset from the boiler roof.</p><div></div>

[dawsonjm]

<p>One more, of the stack from the roof. Exhaust fans all over the roof, the stack is 654 feet high.</p><div></div>

[mc2imaging]

<p>Awesome! I've worked in several coal fired plants as a scaffold carpenter. Sadly, I was never allowed to take photos in any of them (but I did sneak a few...)<br>

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=59461&id=1220032394&l=7cee96c945<br>

Most of these were taken with a 1MP Kodak in 2003. The best view was from atop the White Hall, AR plant. That one was WAY bigger than any other plant I worked in, and better looking surroundings too. About 180 feet from the throat of the V-Bottom (which would have been about 30 ft above grade) to the bottom of the bullnose. I think the top deck of the super was about 260 above grade. Spectacular!</p>

[bkpix]

<p>Amazing!<br>

Where in Eastern Oregon are you?</p>

<p> </p>

[thebs]

<p>Consumers keep consuming. Until consumers are willing to be part of the solution instead of more of the problem, don't blame yourself. No one except those actually coming up with real, feasible solutions have any right to complain. Honestly, as a degreed Electrical Engineer (EE) myself, I get tired of the armchair, conspiracy theory pushing regulars. Even GM and others built SUVs because ... well ... it's what people were buying! As the IEEE Spectrum points out over and over, it's the grid!<br>

With that all said, thank God wind power is finally taking off in the US! Wind, unlike solar, can produce enough in quantity for mass power generation (whereas solar will continue to be a "point" resource). There's no reason the US can't get half, if not 60%, of its power from nuclear and wind within the next 20 years, and even more so enough to power alternatively fuelled vehicles (e.g., even hydrogen doesn't grow on trees people!, let alone electricity).<br>

Great shots BTW!</p>

[tom_clemons]

<p>John, great pictures, but what is a "wind leak"?</p>

[brendonmeyer]

<p>Heh, think I saw the wind leak on reddit. Altho I didn't actually click on it, just assumed that's what it would be. Had I known it was a p.net'r I'd have upvoted.</p>

[dawsonjm]

<p>Thanks you all for the great responses. They mean a lot.<br>

All the above were taken with my new DA17-70. The unique cloud formation forming a sort of tunnel would have been more dramatic with a longer lens, but that is what I had with me. The presence of all the wind turbines just gave it a name.<br>

For those interested, this is the only coal plant in Oregon, located 10 miles south of the Columbia River near Boardman, OR.</p>

[miserere_mei]

<p>A "wind leak", hilarious! :-D And a lovely photo to go with it.</p>

[russel_yee]

<p>The first one is mega cool john, I didn't look up wind leak, so I don't know what's going on... but nice pic.<br>

Bryan, everyone has the right and obligation to complain, this is the U.S. Folks need to speak up more. Those SUV's wouldn't be so popular with higher fuel standards, but that doesn't happen when the oil and auto companies own the commitees that regulate them; corporations complain louder (more money), so they get their way... sorry fo the ot, I'm done. Really do like the pics.</p>

[thebs]

<p><em>"Those SUV's wouldn't be so popular with higher fuel standards, but that doesn't happen when the oil and auto companies own the commitees that regulate them; corporations complain louder (more money), so they get their way"</em><br /> Consumers made them common, and they were very profitable, which made them popular with the makers -- that's all on the consumer. Gas prices have a lot to do with it too, as consumers don't care when the prices are low. And if you think oil companies are behind the price of gas, then you haven't looked very deeply.<br /> Electric cars are still dependent on the grid, which is not clean in the US. And most electric cars are not explained well. The plug-in hybrid gas mileage is currently the most under-exposed reality. Fortunately some technical standard organizations are going to put an end to that soon.<br /> Until I bought my Corvette late last year, I had only owned 4 cylinder vehicles of 25-40mpg my entire life (the 25mpg was a 2.3L pickup). Ironically, like most Chevy vehicles over the last few years, my 6.2L V8 LS3 Corvette gets great gas mileage, over 30mpg at highway speeds, over 25mpg average. Lesser performing sports cars (both in acceleration, top speed and handling, including lateral acceleration) from all the European manufacturers get worse gas mileage.<br /> Consumers have been, and will continue to be, the problem. They reap what they sow. You're lucky I didn't start in on nuclear power. As every fellow EE I know and I have discussed, it's politically unacceptable, has nothing to do with technology or safety, let alone nothing to do with the environment.<br /> So while I agree folks need to speak up more, it helps if they aren't crossing EEs, who understand the physics. It's sad that in the US, there are 50x as many people who believe the Moon Landings were faked and the Twin Towers falling down were an act of sabotage, than Americans who have the background to understand power generation. They accuse organizations like NASA and NIST of cover-ups and lying.</p>

[mc2imaging]

<p>I've been trying to avoid getting too political in this discussion, but I will throw this out:</p>

<p>The emissions from modern coal plants is VERY clean (don't get me started on my experiences inside scrubber towers), but yes, nukes would be ideal. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and a lot of people who get upset over things they know little about.</p>

<p>It's been a while since I calculated it, but if I remember correctly, the average nuke plant makes about six 55 gallon drums of waste in 1 year. Really, storage is not that big of a deal. The same people who gripe about burning coal won't let us build nukes either.</p>

<p>Wind is a nice idea, but last I checked, the average wind farm only produces about 15% of its advertised capacity. With current technology, if the U.S. produced 20% of its electricity with windmills, the land mass requirement would be roughly the same as the ENTIRE state of Virginia. </p>

<p>I've got 3 kids. Just because you have 3 seat belts across the back seat, doesn't mean that 3 kids fit comfortably. Done any shopping for a car with 3 rows of seats lately? My next car will be a 1970-ish Olds Cutlass wagon that will feature multi-port fuel injection on a small displacement V8 for a variety of reasons, but most people don't have the knowledge, desire, or skill to go this route. Most will buy a van or an SUV out of necessity.</p>

<p>At $4.00/gal, you have to drive your hybrid about 200,000 just to break even with the cost premium that you'll pay to get a hybrid over a regular car. Then you've got all of those batteries to dispose of.</p>

<p>Oops, don't forget that it also takes electricity to split water into hydrogen, too. So much for hydrogen being clean energy, huh?</p>

<p>Yeah, there's a lot of junk out there that sounds good on the surface, but in the end it doesn't get us anywhere.</p>

<p>Sorry, but it's a touchy subject with me, because it used to be my livelihood too. Keep burning those hydrocarbons and don't feel bad about it for a second. The carbon dioxide will keep those trees out there nice and healthy...</p>

[mcmanamey]

<p>And since I've got grand gardening plans, I need the extra CO2 around our house to really build up the corn, strawberries, & herbs I think I want to try.</p>

<p>God bless cheap coal (& nuke) power & the guys that keep em running.</p>

[thebs]

<p>Matthew/Maria --<br /> Totally with you there. I still think 20% wind power is an achievable goal for the next 25 years. Strategically placed, it wouldn't be the total size of Virginia, but yes Matthew, it would be equal to enough area of a smaller state. And the area/cost required for solar is laughable in comparison.<br /> Nuclear has already been discussed. People also forget that fission power generation isn't the only thing that creates waste. Waste from medical and other industrial uses continue, let alone weapons generation has been the creator of 99%. As the US and Russia continue to reduce stockpiles, there continues to be a steady supply of fuel.<br /> And, lastly, coal. The US has vast coal reserves, as does China, enough that we are exporting to India and Europe. Which brings me to the realities of other nations. Much of Europe does not. They are importing 2x petroleum from the Middle East than the US, and vast natural gas from the east like Russia. And they are almost out of coal. That's why the UK has basically mandated a move to nuclear and wind, following the long-time French strategy on nuclear. <br /> The French being the only nation in the world that still has any knowledge and experience in building nuclear plants, sans small, sub-1MW military reactors, which the US is now revisiting as a viable solution en masse. We've really screwed ourselves because of our ignorant consumer base who just wants cheap gas and really doesn't want to understand. Our nuclear power plant designs are so old, heavily 1st generation. The French, among others, have moved to newer generation designs. Even Obama is behind it, among others. After all, Chicago has, for the longest time, received 80% of their power from nuclear. The French have been at 60% for decades as well.<br>

Also, the comments on hybrids are dead-on. Even worse, the quoted plug-in hybrid gas mileage really have people fooled. The electricity still has to be generated. Same deal with electrolysis for hydrogen, it's not that efficient. The other option is hydrogen capture from natural gas, which still requires quite a bit of natural gas.<br>

Consumers want to consume and not understand the realities of how much they do.</p>

[russel_yee]

<p>we have the illusion of choice, ... don't blame consumers, it's at least a two way street, but the corporations are driving the buses. Consumers can only go on the prescribed routes, or walk, or yell at the driver. and unfortunately, the city council is made up of bus drivers... can this be locked now, so Idon't "have" to read another of brian's essays?=D</p>

[russel_yee]

<p>Sorry john... are those digital captures? not that it matters, but I can't tell if I can see paper marks from the scan or if my monitor is wierding out.</p>

[thebs]

<p>Russel --<br>

I always find it humorous that people like yourself comment, but then request it be "locked/closed." That just means you want the last word. I'll admit, I do.<br>

<em>"we have the illusion of choice, ... don't blame consumers, it's at least a two way street, but the corporations are driving the buses. Consumers can only go on the prescribed routes, or walk, or yell at the driver. and unfortunately, the city council is made up of bus drivers..."</em><br>

You have three choices as a consumer in the US: </p>

<ol>

<li>Accept the options</li>

<li>Stop consuming</li>

<li>Offer your own, new option -- solving the problem, becoming a provider instead of consumer, change the world</li>

</ol>

<p>We have enough complainers. We need solutions! Provide solutions! The problem is, I find too many people don't understand the problem. Less than 0.2% of the US are EEs. That's nothing compared to the complainers. The percentage of people who think the Moon Landings were faked and the Towers came down because of sabotage is 50x that.<br>

And the worst thing about that is that people honestly believe engineers are in cohorts with NASA, NIST, etc... on the collective lies, so they don't trust engineers to solve problems either. But they don't know how themselves! They just want to consume, and won't stop. So this cycle continues.</p>

[mc2imaging]

<p>You don't have to be an EE, I'm an ME with strong sparky tendencies. :o)</p>

<p>So true about the abundancy of complainers, though... and it doesn't help when so-called 'scientists' lie just to obtain a study grant.</p>

[thebs]

<p>I'd settle for any engineering, but that's another story.<br>

In all cases, it's cool to see generators in action. Whether it's coal, nuclear or wind, they are involved.</p>

[david_barts2]

<blockquote>

<p>

 

 

<p >Sorry, but it's a touchy subject with me, because it used to be my livelihood too. Keep burning those hydrocarbons and don't feel bad about it for a second. The carbon dioxide will keep those trees out there nice and healthy...</p>

 

 

</p>

</blockquote>

<p>

 

 

And attitudes like <em>that</em> are precisely why the most apocalyptic predictions of the most radical environmentalists are the most likely outcomes.

 

 

</p>

[russel_yee]

<p>Bryan, you kinda just repeated what I said in the bus analogy. This seems to follow my thinking that engineers just don't listen very well.<br>

1. accept it (<em>follow the prescribed routes</em>) status quo is good? everything is fine?<br>

2. don't consume (<em>walk</em>). really, this isn't an option unless you move to walden pond.<br>

3. do the engineers job for them (<em>i didn't say this, but it's a typical engineer's response</em>)<br>

So, I agree we don't have real choices. People don't understand the problem because engineers can't explain it and thier bosses don't want people to understand it; ignorant folks are easier to control and make money off of.<br>

Also, I thought the locked thread thing was a pretty transparent and humourus comment, but thanks for pointing out the obvious.</p>