Question about 67 and 645 system - also added a little question

[imrot_peskov]

<p>I thought it would be nice to not do two topics because one of the questions is really small and I'll ask it before I get to my main topic.<br>

I cannot find any information about that can I use Bronica GS-1 accessories with my Bronica SQ-Ai, I'm especially talking about the speed grip and 6x6 and 6x4.5 backs.<br /><br />Will they somehow combine or are they totally different?<br /><br /><br />Well my main question here is that I'm right now shooting with a Bronica SQ-Ai 6x6 system and with a Canon A-1 35mm system. The Canon A-1 is a really good camera but I mainly use it for my everyday life and beings, nothing serious or bigger work but am really thinking on getting a 6x4.5 or 6x7 body to I could take this kind of format and not only 6x6 for my projects and more serious projects and work.<br /><br />Right now I have a few ideas:<br /><br />I can get a 6x4.5 back for the Bronica SQ-Ai (but then it would bother me that if the work needs a bit speed, I would have to change the backs and also add the screen to fit the view)<br /><br />Or I could get a 6x4.5 or 6x7 system (this would be more expensive but more convenient and would have two different bodies for different purposes)<br /><br /><br />What the fuzz all about here is that I'm not sure what would be better - I tend to like the idea of having another body more but the cost would be bigger, on the other hand buying separately the backs and focusing screens would cost too pretty much.<br /><br />I'm not with a big budget but if investing to this needs to be done as for doing more professional work, I have some financing for that but the budget is not that big so I'm not sure what to do.<br /><br /><br />Thanks! - Tormi</p>

[steve_levine]

<p>There is no "side ways" compatibility between Bronica models. GS1 accessories will not fit the SQ or ETR cameras, or vice versa. I would simply use a 645 back on the square formatted SQ, rather than invest into another system. Or easier and cheaper, mask the frame and shoot 645 in the 6x6 camera, and crop after you shoot.</p>

<p>Depending on your budget, an RB 67 Mamiya with VF,back and lens can be had for small money right now. Buying an 645 camera is a step down in size. Where a 67CM camera is a larger neg.</p>

[imrot_peskov]

<p>Yes, the RB67 is indeed pretty cheap for it's kind but I would like to have it with a speed grip and a viewfinder prism which adds to the sum pretty much.<br /><br />Also I don't think that the 6x4.5 would be a step down in size as I'm using a 35mm SLR and 6x6 - it would be down from 6x6 but up for 35mm, also as the 6x6 cannot be compared to the ratio that 6x4.5, 6x7 or 6x9 gives.</p>

<p>Well, maybe it's me but I bought the speed grip and viewfinder prism with light metering for my Bronica SQ-Ai for two reasons - firstly I think for doing some of the work it's more comfortable to shoot from the viewfinder and hold it as a 35mm camera.<br />Secondly it had a light meter in it's viewfinder because I'm sometimes doubting the overall metering that my Sekonic light meter offer because of it not having a spot meter.<br /><br />Now I'm thinking that I could get the RB67 with the WLF but then something comes to my mind: is it worth buying a 1 cm larger camera next to my 6x6 - I think that here then would be 6x9 better or then still the 6x4.5 because of the same ratio as a 35mm camera gives.<br /><br />What creeps inside of me is that they say that 6x7 format is really the "ideal format" and really good and many love it as do many love 6x6 and I know that 6x6 is only one kind of a format - it isn't like the 6x4.5vs6x7vs6x9 which all give around here and there but almost the same ratio, similar at least. The RB67 is pretty cheap - I could get a Mamiya RB67 for about £220 with the WLF, back, body, 127mm F3.8 lens but even if that a pretty good deal, I would like to have a purpose for it, I don't like spending money for equipment which wouldn't have much of a purpose in my bag.</p>

<p>I think I should clear this out that I'm shooting portraits/people, fashion and art photography so the 6x7 would be a really good portrait format but my only doubt in it is that it's not 6x8, it's 6x7 and it's only 1 cm difference, will it make a difference in my photographs too?</p>

[imrot_peskov]

<p>// I have a chance to buy a Mamiya RB67 with WLF, back, body, 127mm F3.8 lens for £240<br /> or have chance to buy a Bronica ETRSi 645 with prism, speed grip, 75mm F2.8 lens, back, body for £230</p>

[steve_levine]

<p>"""also as the 6x6 cannot be compared to the ratio that 6x4.5, 6x7 or 6x9 gives."""</p>

<p>The 6x6 will shoot 645's (60cmx45cm) aspect ratio. A 645 is approximately 2.7 times larger than a 35MM neg. And a 6x7 is around 4 times larger than a 35MM neg.</p>

[imrot_peskov]

<p>Yes, that correct, 67 is 1.5 times bigger than 645 but the thing is am I really going to do much huge prints and if some then will the REAL quality between them be really bad?<br /><br />My main concern is that 6x7 would be nice but as I think it is too close to 6x6 which I have and also it's said that RB67 is a bit too heavy to get proper exposure on the street, etc. <br /><br />What I don't like for the 6x4.5 is that I cannot get it bigger as from the 6x7 I could get smaller.<br /><br />But I think I've reached to my decision: I think because of the handiness and price I'm going to go with the Bronica ETRSi. I think it is enough for me for that format for now, the 1.5 times size difference with 6x7 is not that big of a factor right now and as for the price too: I can get the ETRSi with all the things I need (though it probably won't have the light metering prism which I have buy and sell the other one) for £230 but the RB67 I would get for £240 + speed grip + metering prism.</p>

[andre_noble5]

<p>Imrot,</p>

<p>I used to have the Bronica SQAi 6x6. Excellent colors, small package, very well built lenses and backs, plus i loved the circular crank action to wind the film.</p>

<p>However, I grew frustrated with it because I needed to crop the 6x6 to 6x4.5 to make prints (5x7, 8x10, 11x14).</p>

<p>I sold the entire Bronica SQ-Ai system and bought a Mamiya RB 6x7 three years later.</p>

<p>In my eyes, there is no comparison. The Mamiya RB KL lenses are truly professional optics. There is a huge difference printing an 8x10 from a 6x4.5 negative versus a 6x7 negative, and simply put: The Bronica PS lenses for the SQ-Ai are not in the same league as the Mamiya KL lenses for the RB.</p>

<p>However, I must admit I hear a lot of professional photographers on the internet who are able to squeeze professional results from their SQ-Ai. I personally did not see the huge leap in quality from Nikon 35mm to Bronica 6x6.</p>

<p>The Mamiya RB is an entirely different story. I highly recommend it.</p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>"I personally did not see the huge leap in quality from Nikon 35mm to Bronica 6x6."</p>

<p>Then you must be doing something wrong. A 645 neg is huge (2.7x larger) compared with 35mm, and the Bronica lenses are excellent. The RB is an excellent system, but it's most suited for tripod use either in a studio or close to a car.</p>

[imrot_peskov]

<p>Thanks for your reply, Andre.<br /><br />However if you have 6x6 system, as I do too, who says you have to make 8x10 prints or any of that format - you can make 8x8, 10x10, 14x14, etc. The square format is no problem in making prints and the SQ-Ai quality, I doubt that it is a very big difference to the Mamiya RB67.<br /> I know that there is a big variety of photographers who say that one system makes better photographs, gives the better quality and it can be so - everyone sees things differently because I've heard stories where people have said to have gotten better results from 35mm then a medium format, which is logically pretty weird BUT it's the photographer usually - if a photographer handles and performs better with his 35mm camera then he does with a medium format camera, then you must admit that he'll get better results from a 35mm than a MF camera.<br /><br />What I'm trying to say is that if someone masters they're camera, be it 35mm, 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 or large format 8x10, etc. he will get the best results with the medium he's using - size isn't everything here, if you would master every format, the size would matter but even if you shoot with a 8x10 large format camera and another photographer shoots with a 6x7, the 6x7 photographer could have really better prints because he has mastered his format better.<br /><br />It's the same as two Mamiya RB67 users get a different quality - it's what you hear a lot from these or any others forums from the lines it between - one photographers says that there is no big difference in 6x4.5 and 6x7 to a certain print size and that size would be already really big.<br />Another photographer says that he feels that he can make better prints with a 6x4.5, then with a 6x7, which he both has used and then somewhere someone comes out and says to all of the medium format users in the forum that he gets better results with his 35mm then most of the medium format users. <br /> And all of that statements are true too!<br /><br />Well to finish it up, yes I believe you that 6x7 could give some difference to some eyes at a certain print size, which I believe has to be a pretty big one to really notice while being too close to the print. <br />What I also believe is that if I master a 6x4.5 format, I could also do better then most of the medium format users, better quality too, even though they have bigger negatives or plates.<br /><br />And then comes the other part why I think 6x4.5 is better than 6x7 at this point of my life: for doing professional and personal artwork and not being in the top that you would have to have the best equipment, I think 645 can manage, also it's quicker and cheaper.<br />Although yes, I am thinking of doing some big prints, I still don't think it's that of a big difference because they get excellent results from 35mm film for big prints, as I saw James Nachtwey's exhibition where he uses only 35mm film with he's professional equipment and the prints were pretty big but they were in excellent quality.<br /> Yes I admit I haven't used 6x7 camera but I still believe as they say that the Mamiya RB67 is a studio camera of it's heaviness and handling - many of it's users say they shoot outside with a 1/15 or 1/60 the most on hand and I know I ain't a tripod user and I don't do much studio work. <br /><br /><br />It's as you said Andre, you personally didn't see a huge leap in quality from Nikon 35mm to Bronica 6x6 - it's again the same quote that I said as one man says that he can get better results with a 35mm then a medium format because logically if you say you got better results with a 6x7, then with a 6x6 - well the Mamiya's and Bronica's lenses are pretty close to quality in most cases and as the 1 cm made a huge difference to you, it just means that you weren't impressed by the magic of the square format and just did not master it, as you had all other perspectives with the 6x7 - but I understand you, it's all in personal taste and views and if you're not that impressed with one format and you are more impressed with another format, you can even get just from the positive energy so much better quality from another format - it's as you are more compatible with this or that, and so is with systems and formats.</p>

<p>Thanks for replying! Can someone else change my mind why is 6x7 better than 6x4.5 for me?</p>

[andre_noble5]

<p>Robert and Imrot,<br>

I am actually happy when I here people enjoying the results from and having success with their Bronica SQ-Ai 6x6. I think the success you see is due mainly to negative size, and not superior optical performance.</p>

<p>I use a Mamiya RB with a 6x8 back. The rectangular negatives are almost twice the size of the 6x4.5 format (which a 6x6 gets squashed down to to make an 8x10.) The 6x8 sits between the 5x7 aspect ratio and the 8x10. So there is minimal cropping to both.</p>

<p>Furthermore, I picked up a brand new Mamiya RB APO 210 and 250 lenses for $600 and $800 respectively, which I have happily discovered, can resolve as much detail as my Nikon 105 VR prime lens.</p>

<p>I once owned the Bronica PS 180 portrait lens - Bronica's sharpest portrait lens for the SQ system. While mechanically top notch with excellent color saturation, the 180 PS simply is not in the same league as the two aforementioned lenses in terms of resolution capabilities.</p>

<p>Summary: The 6x8 back renders negatives twice the size of 6x4.5. The Mamiya RB KL and APO lenses are significantly more capable of resolving detail down to the film grain than the Bronica PS lenses - based on my costly experience (I lost thousands of $$ selling the Bronica SQ-Ai).</p>

<p>The problem with switching MF systems, particularly if it is Bronica, is that you will be practically giving your gear away.</p>

[andre_noble5]

<p>Additionally, the larger negative size advantage (of 6x7/6x8 vs 35mm & 6x4.5) shows up when shooting grainly high speed films such as Delta 3200 under available light.<br>

This is something you will have to experience yourself as your craft matures.</p>

 

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>"Additionally, the larger negative size advantage (of 6x7/6x8 vs 35mm & 6x4.5) shows up when shooting grainly high speed films such as Delta 3200 under available light."</p>

<p>I use 35mm for low light because the lenses are faster and I can get better DOF at wide apertures. That allows me to use slower film with 35mm than I would with MF.</p>

[andre_noble5]

<p>Robert, sounds like you would love the Nikon 105 VR lens. It is amazing technology.</p>

[jim_krupnik]

<p>I think the larger 6x7 cm format is worth it's weight in gold. I still have a small Hasselblad 6x6 kit available, and a more fully equipped Bronica SQ-Am kit that I use when weight is a major concern, but the 6x7 is my go-to medium format size. I prefer the RZ to the RB for a number of reasons, but either system offers an inexpensive entry to the larger end of MF shooting with some of the best lenses made, and with few, if any inherent creative limitations built in.</p>

<p>I like 6x6, but I tend to prefer a more rectangular view of life, and I simply use more of the 6x7 frame than I do the 6x6 frame. I also prefer the 7x7 size of unmasked Polaroid/Fujiroid prints made with the RB/RZ systems compared to similar prints shot with a 6x6 camera.</p>

<p>For me, the additional tonality and detail offered by the big 6x7 cm format shows in all circumstances, and not just in extreme examples. How much difference? It depends, and I also shoot a ton of APS-C digital format images, so I clearly don't consider MF film to be the ultimate answer for all photo needs.</p>

<p>Here is a pic of an RZ67 with the AE prism finder, a 120 film back, and the "pistol grip". It is a beast, but what a wonderful beast.... The magnifier flips up out of the way, so it is not always in your face. I just happened to be using it when I took this shot.</p>

<p><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4530285002_6f96bfc9db.jpg" alt="" width="500" height="375" /></p>

<p>Here is the same basic rig with the WLF mounted on a tripod...<br /> <img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2723/4449897084_41bd49b6c0.jpg" alt="" width="356" height="500" /></p>

<p>And last, here is the basic RZ67 next to a Bronica SQ-Am for a size comparison. If you are starting from the ground up, I would suggest the RZ67 as your focus. It is a fabulous system, and offers unreal value, along with available tools for most every task. By the way, the RZ67 can use much of the RB kit, while the reverse is not true. In the Bronica line, there is little, if anything that will fit from one format system to the next, but they are very good at making most everything work within a particular system format, no matter the vintage of the lens, back, or accessory. No matter what camera you choose, enjoy! It really is tough to go wrong with anything on the market today.</p>

<p><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2719/4411032178_48b4d08055.jpg" alt="" width="500" height="438" /></p>

<p> </p>

[jim_krupnik]

<p>Sorry, I should have included the ETRSi body in the comparison shot as well. I don't use it much, and my ETRSi kit is a bit thin, but you mentioned that it is your choice, so I'll include the comparison shot here. It is a fine camera, and it has a very rugged metal chassis that can stand up to a great deal of abuse. There are some differences in controls compared to other Bronica cameras, but they are all pretty much "peas in a pod". If you master one, you can pick up another, and shoot without much drama. I think you will love it....</p>

<p><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4400054676_9b834e3234.jpg" alt="" width="500" height="375" /></p>

[imrot_peskov]

<p>Haha, yeah, thanks for that but what I'm laughing about is that you gave me an example photo of those three compares where my choice is without any accessories and seems so little like that - yes it is smaller then the other but like this it's seems like a 35mm vs medium format.<br>

Therefore good one!<br>

The RZ67 seems big alright, though first thing that comes to mind: what about weight, but other than that, it looks good.<br>

<br />Here again is the matter of personal needs and choice of the cameras because each one is meant for something different.<br />I think that my 35mm, 6x4.5 and 6x6 format will cut it for now, if I feel an urge for something different, changes will be made, though yes, you have to try everything out yourself to feel the difference you would get out of it.<br>

I used to have Nikon F100 but I sold it because it felt too automatic and had too many things to it, I bought a Canon A-1, yeah it's a great camera but now, as I'm thinking that when I will be doing different work, then of course, as you mentioned, medium format doesn't fit for all photographic needs. So I'm not sure if to use a manual focus camera still, as my Canon A-1 which is a professional tool, so it can handle, even more with the cheap winder, which makes it really stand out and a bit better, though heavier for everyday walking.<br />Or to switch back to a newer camera with autofocus - then again I don't feel a really big urge right now and don't have the money to buy an good modern film camera and a AF lens to it, as I would be anyway aiming for Nikon.</p>

<p>Ok, I've been here too long, I mean the technological talk and talking about money eats my mental energy, my creativity a bit too, it makes me think too much of it, so I should stop now and just keep shooting and doing what I do, not thinking that much about technology, just getting it done as I know it.</p>

<p>Thanks for all replies, really am grateful, am learning something new from everyone and I like to discuss, not argue about different things and thanks for your discussion and not arguing or debating.</p>

<p>Tormi, from Estonia</p>

[imrot_peskov]

<p>Well, for those of you who still look at this topic, I've decided eventually to not get the 6x4.5 system because it would be great but in reality, it would've cost me £330 and therefore I don't think that it's worth it - I'm rather gonna buy a 6x4.5 back and make a DIY screen for my Bronica SQ-Ai. Maybe even wont get a 6x4.5 back because there ain't many around and yes, I lose 3 shots but cropping the 6x4.5 from the 6x6 photo is really is and I have the chance to play with it a little - yeah, you like to hear that, well I do<br /><br />While putting some paper to imitate the 6x4.5 feel to my 6x6 screen, it looks kind a neat, very cinematic (though I looked through a WLF, so it probably made it even more nicer).<br /><br /><br>

Well still about getting another camera, not 100% sure now but if so, then yeah, the Mamiya RZ67 or RB67 seems best - THOUGH, I'm still not liking the idea that I should use it with a tripod mostly, so I'll look into that and here in Europe, even in Germany or UK ebay, there aren't right now any good offers.</p>

<p> </p>