Would you be offended by a "guest" photographer?

[DB_Gallery]

<blockquote>

<p>I've offered to take some photos at this upcoming wedding just as a supplement to the professional's work.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Why? You are not the paid photographer, you can and will be a distraction for the guests when they consider who the "Wedding Photographer" is, you are not that person.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>if his work is anything like it was in a previous wedding I attended where he was providing services, it will be almost exclusively posed portrait photos.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sorry, but you are butting in again, this is none of your business, at all, you need to get past that and this need you seem to have to want to "Supplement" the paid professional's work, it's not your call one bit to make the distinction that the paid hire needs to be supplemented.<br>

<br /> I am a full time professional photographer, but I do not do weddings and this type of thinking from amateurs is one of the many reasons why, it's become a game. When I attend a wedding, I either don't bring a camera or if I do which is rare, it is a small Leica with one lens, that's it, that is all a guest should bring.<br>

<br /> Just do your self, all the guests, the photographer and above all, the bride and groom a *Big* favor and leave the camera at home. Your "Job" at the wedding as a guest is to enjoy the event as a guest and be supportive of the people getting married, end of story...</p>

[colleendonovan]

<p>I wouldn't be offended. I would be annoyed and I would not like you at all and probably cuss at you under my breath the entire time you were there. Then I would get on my favorite photography forum and talk about the Auntie Bobette who thought she was doing her very best friend a favor by standing in all of my shots. That her very best friend had paid good money for. <br>

I would prefer it if you would act like a guest and not a photographer. :)</p>

[laura_puig]

<p>Ok, let's say that the OP gets "permission". What about the 50 other guests with iphones, p&s and so on that will be shooting for fun with their flashes on? (I see that in museums where I take care of turning off my flash while the others use it without ever being warned)<br>

Sometimes I have the impression that the one doing what has to be done (ask for permission, approach the pro, paying photo fee in certain venues...) is getting a NO just to see others doing what they want. And all that because IT IS A DSRL. Gosh, a DSRL is not a pro-level-results guarantee. A pro sells his work no matter the gear he's using.An amateurs does not make business no matter whatever is used too.<br>

At the end all that matters is common sense and courtesy in both sides. In other words, human relations and social skills.<br>

If it was me, I'd speak with the bride and ask her to let the photographer know. Then the day D I'll just introduce myself and shake hands with the pro and then get out of his way as I promised. That's all. If he's a pro, he'll know that no one should forbid guests taking pictures (even with a telescope if they want/dare) unless they are obtrusive with his job (in that case they have all the right to ask the guest to stop bothering, not taking pictures)<br>

My two cents.</p>

[neilambrose]

<p>Personally I'd have no concerns about you being there in any capacity as long as you were competent and respectful of the wedding party.</p>

<p>The equipment you bring with you isn't relevant to me. In fact, I actually operate in reverse: I have much more consideration (and professional respect) for someone who brings a 35mm prime and knows how to use it. People with ultra long lenses tend to stand out for having unsuitable gear that they brought with them for the wrong reasons. Any experienced reportage photographer will tell you that really good images are found at close distances, not from the edge of the room. Hint - if you're serious about doing photojournalistic coverage, the 100-400 won't be of much use to you. You really want a consistent working distance inside 10 feet. My 'killer' lens for reportage is 28mm.</p>

<p>The issue of 'intrusion' is something to be sensitive about. It's not that you're inconveniencing the photographer - but more that you risk interfering with or damaging the product the couple has paid for.</p>

<p>I remember a wedding last year where a friend of the bride was a semi-pro photographer and decided to make her a present of her wedding on polaroids. Nice idea. Problem was she could only focus at 1 meter, and hence spent almost all the wedding just 1 meter away from the bride. I gently pulled her aside and asked her just how good friends she was with the couple. I explained I hoped they were very close indeed, because she was on track to be in every single one of their photos .... She was appalled at her clumsiness and deeply apologetic. With a bit of co-operation she was able to get all the shots she wanted without any negative impact on the couple's expensive wedding album.</p>

<p>The photographer gets paid regardless. But whether the couple gets the product they've paid for may well be down to you....</p>

[StuartMoxham]

<p>Personaly I think as a guest you don't need to be informing anyone of anything. You take the photos for yourself and if you have anything worth showing to the B&G then let them see them after the wedding. You don't need to get under the pro's feet or shoot over their shoulder. You don't need to shoot their setups or be disapearing with guests outside to do portraits when you know the pro is trying to do group shots. Don't make a nuisance of yourself and you should not have any problems.</p>

[stefan_deisz]

<p>If I was the hired photographer, I would not mind other people shooting as well as long as they don't interfere with my shooting. If someone does interfere, I would ask them to stop by explaining that the're ruining the bride and groom's formal reportage. If that doesn't help, I would ask the bride and groom to intervene.<br>

IMHO: Don't bring that 100-400 to a wedding. On a full frame it's too long, on a cropped sensor it's way too long. Just choose one lens. A 17-40 on a cropped sensor, or a 24-105 on a full frame.</p>

[john_h.1]

<blockquote>

<p>as a guest you don't need to be informing anyone of anything.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The original shows that the role she specifically offered to the bride, in advance of the wedding, made her something more than a guest with a camera. Nevertheless, the situation can be made to fit the rest of your post.</p>

[StuartMoxham]

<p>I think most keen amaters offer to take photos at their friends weddings. It seems to be something that they want to do. I would not be supprised if she was not the only guest that has offered to take some shots. Often I feel that sometimes they make the role of taking some shots at a friends wedding to be more important or more wanted than it often is.</p>

[ken_thalheimer]

<p>When I shot weddings, professionally, once in a great while there was someone such as you. Some were very intrusive, even having the nerve to tell me what to take. Bothersome? Yes.<br>

Invariably there are guests who click away. That's absolutely fine. Just stay out of the paid photographer's way</p>

[bill_clark___minnetonka_mi]

<p>Wouldn't bother me.<br>

<br /> If I thought you would get in the way, I would take you aside, ask for your help, assign you some tasks, make you feel good, like you're contributing. And I believe you would contribute.</p>

<p>I've had little kids help me with my tripod, a father of the bride who loves photography who, the bride thought, would get in he way but never did. He since has hired my services for another daughters wedding. I've got other stories but hope you get the gist of what I do.</p>

<p>Working with people is an important part of wedding photography.</p>

<p>Smiles & Fun!</p>

[Member69643]

<p>These sorts of requests are nearly always driven by cost. Everyone knows the pro pictures will cost "a lot" but the ones uncle Bob takes, well, they're free, and heck, might be just as good as the ones the pro took. Especially since uncle Bob will be shooting the same poses, locations, etc. as the photographer. I see it all the time. If I was making money on prints I'd be miffed, but as I get my lucre (filthy or otherwise) up-front, I could care less.</p>

<p>Oh and the "I won't get in your way" clause? HA! I've never seen one of these guys do that. They'll be in the way, or shooting their flash right at you, or leave their tripod in the aisle the bride is traversing, or setting off your optical triggers (and then looking confusedly at their LCD screens wondering why everything is so overexposed) and making you (and the couple) wait longer for the flash to recharge between pictures...</p>

[rebecca_chavez]

<p>Wow...</p>

<p>Okay, so obviously this is a serious topic of dicussion with a lot of varying opinions. I don't think I've ever received more responses on anything I've ever posted on the internet before. I'd like to thank you all for your honest answers. I'm taking them all into consideration. I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to do at this time, but I'll play it by ear. If I accidentally offend someone this once...well...at least I'm now encouraged not to try and do anything like this again in the future. It's too much worry just to let myself have a little fun feeding my hobby, while possibly benefitting a friend at the same time. </p>

<p>Thanks again, and feel free to continue commenting if you so desire, as I'll still be watching your posts.</p>

[stefan_deisz]

<p>There's nothing wrong with taking photographs at a wedding, just try to capture those moments the official photographer doesn't. And try to be part of the wedding (you are a guest, the official photographer isn't), which is hard if you lug a 100-400 and some other lenses around. Maybe you can use a 50/1.8 which will allow for great shots without using a flash.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>If you're there as a guest and happen to be shooting some candid photos - I wouldn't even notice you or pay any attention to you honestly. </p>

<p>If you're shooting over my shoulder - or stepping in front of a pose when I'm trying to shoot - then I'd have an issue and we'd have a discussion.</p>

<p>If you introduce yourself to me - that would be great - if you chose not too - I'm cool either way - if you have a camera with a big lens - I might ask how you like it....</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[StuartMoxham]

<p>Rebecca take some pictures at your friends wedding let your friends have the pictures don't take too much of what is said on here too personaly. There are always those that object to anyone else taking photos at a wedding apart from the hired pro. These are your friends and it is their wedding at the end of the day. As long as you are not makeing the hired photographers day difficult by being in the way you will be fine.</p>

[dan_south]

<p>There's an old saying: "The people who matter don't mind, and the people who mind don't matter." As long as you're not directly in his/her way (please be very careful NOT to be), then if the photographer is offended by your presence it reflects badly on them, not on you.</p>

<p>When I shoot my own shots at a friend or relative's wedding, I make a conscious effort to be (a) out of the pro's line of view and (b) standing somewhere other than where they are. My main objective is to get DIFFERENT looks than the pro (or pros if there are two of them). There's plenty going on at most weddings, and they can't capture it all from where they're standing; those are the shots that I'm looking for, and my friends/relatives are always very thankful for the unique set of images that I provide for them.</p>

<p>My advice: notice where the pro is working and be somewhere else (just not where you're going to end up in their shot).</p>

[neilambrose]

<blockquote>

<p>...notice where the pro is working and be somewhere else (just not where you're going to end up in their shot).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Dan, while I understand where you're coming from, it's probably worth pointing out that there are lots of different approaches to wedding photography. Not all photographers are going to announce their presence and be directive in a way that allows someone to know what they're doing or where they're working.</p>

<p>There are some reportage photographers who (if they do their job right) will be difficult to tell apart from a guest, and it will be even harder for someone to know whether or not they're in that person's way. One of the most common problems is from photographer guests just walking right into a moment, changing the dynamic and killing it dead before it has a chance to unfold. I've seen it happen all the time: some people have the emotional subtlety of a charging elephant. The bride smiles tearfully at her father, he leans in and whispers in her ear.... the photographer knows he's just about to kiss her on the forehead .... and a guest with camera runs in and say 'oh you guys are so sweet, just smile for me'....</p>

<p>Don't overlook that sometimes the reason the reportage photographer is not in the same place as the guest with camera isn't because they're working somewhere else — it's because the guest with camera is killing the mood and preventing genuine picture opportunities.</p>

[senor_crocodrillo]

<p>Neil- I agree that it can be hard to know when you're in the way and that should be enough for anyone to think twice before bringing a big rig to a wedding as a guest- But the interrupted moment that you use as an example could be ruined by any person, with or without a camera. I can't know how accurate Rebecca's description of the photographer is, but if he's really just there to take posed stuff only, I don't see how she'd interfere by doing candids, except to knock someone on the head with that lens.<br />Rebecca- Are you sure that your depiction of the photographer is accurate? Maybe you've never seen his candids? Also, keep in mind that few brides are going to say no to your offer. As they see it, the more pictures, the better. Most of them don't understand or are too caught up to notice that you might be interfering with the photographer's ability to do his best- whether you're in the way, or just making him nervous. I'd keep away from the bride's prep time if the photographer is there. That's a time that everyone can be a bit jumpy. Usually it's best not to have a bunch of cameras taking pictures. Let your bridal friend get comfortable with the hired pro, rather than paying attention to you.<br />Personally, I might get very offended if you interfered while I was working. I'd <em>most likely</em> be nice about it, but it wouldn't be the first time I intentionally stood in front of someone while they were taking a picture.</p>

[rayt]

<p>I draw the line at the formals. I allow guests to take images only after I have taken my image. If the "guest photographer(s)" does(do) not comply, I put one of my strobes on sensor mode and just let it trip by their flash. This tends to grossly over expose (or in the case of preflash, underexpose) the guest photographer images. Usually they have no clue why and give up taking images. The recyle time on the lights is fast enough that my missing any images is not an issue. The radios still trigger the strobes for me when I want them triggerd.</p>

<p>At more than one wedding I have had a particularly cooperative guest photographer. I even went so far at one wedding to tell the guest what settings to use on their camera and offered them a radio so they can trip the strobes, but only after I got my image. It worked out well as I was contracted to photograph their son's (best man at this event) wedding a couple of years later.</p>

<p>During the rest of the wedding where I cannot control the environment it is open season. If a person is in the way I ask them to move but don't irritated. The P&S crowd, and yes some with very good cameras, are a fact of life at weddings today.</p>

<p>Only one time was it a problem. The priest said no flash during the ceremony. I complied. A guest photographer did not. I was singled out by the priest and asked to leave the ceremony. For that event I explained to the couple what happened and the missed images were the result of their guest, not me. They understood.</p>

[scott_murphy_photography]

<p>The easiest way to answer this question is to put yourself in that professional photographer's shoes. You have been contracted to shoot a wedding. You have expectations of what the bride and groom want. You will be focused on getting those photos. A non-professional "guest" photographer could very well get in the way of them doing the job for which they are getting paid.</p>

<p>I don't know if I would be offended, but I would most likely be <em>annoyed. </em>Most especially if your presence prevented me from doing my job to the fullest.</p>

[dd_toth]

<p>I don't think you should contact the pro before the day. That would be weird. When you see them at the wedding, go up to them and just make conversation. Hey! You're photographing Sally's wedding too! That's awesome. I guess that's how referrals work, eh! You did a great job at "Suzy's" wedding. She was so happy with your photos, blah blah blah...Did I get in your way at Suzy's wedding? If they say yes, and tell you when, just apologize and say you'll definitely keep that in mind, or you just won't do it this wedding, as you don't want to step on any toes. Tell them what you were wanting to do this wedding. I'm just going to be shooting away, taking behind the scene shots, trying this shot out, etc...Don't worry about me, I'm going to be trying my best to stay out of your way.</p>

<p>That's all. Not a big deal. Every wedding photographer deals with family/friend photographers. The fact that you are asking this question means you respect their work and don't want to get in the way. You are exactly the kind of friend taking photographs at a friends wedding, I would want. It's the ones that don't even think to talk to you and just do what they want, that are the annoying ones. If this keeps happening because of referrals, I'd probably ask you to send me some of your shots after so I can see them. Who knows, if you got along great with the photographer, and they liked your images, maybe ask them to contact you about assisting/second shooting. You never know!</p>

 

[dan_south]

<p>Cameras are everywhere today. Between cheap DSLRs, point-and-shoots and camera phones, there could be a HUNDRED people or more snapping images at a typical wedding, especially at a key moment ("you may kiss the bride"). This is the reality of our Facebook world.</p>

<p>At least the enthusiast (or guest pro) with a good-quality DSLR has the option to take photos unobtrusively without flash and from some distance away. Aunt Millie probably doesn't know how to disable the flash on her P&S, and fourteen-year-olds with iPhones don't give a you know what about following instructions or obeying rules. The days of "please wait until I'm finished shooting" are all but gone. Evolution: adapt or perish.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>There are some reportage photographers who (if they do their job right) will be difficult to tell apart from a guest.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Unless they're shooting from the conga line with a spy camera mounted to their brassier, I'll spot them within five seconds of entering the room. Ten if I'm plastered.</p>

 

[picturesque]

<p>What's interesting to me is that over the years, photographer's responses have turned more negative to guests shooting with DSLRs than before.</p>

<p>I would say that much depends on the individuals involved, obviously. If the pro is agreeable or not. If the pro is a traditional shooter/PJ shooter. If the guest is sensitive to circumstances. How advanced the guest is. The specific personalities involved. The actual ceremony and reception locations and lighting.</p>

<p>In effect, many, many facts enter in determining what the right path is. Rebecca--you will have to use your judgement, having read all the differing opinions here. I would also add that you should scrutinize your motivations. As I stated above, I can usually tell if there is any degree of ego or challenge in the guest photographer.</p>

<p>I would also research some previous threads about this. Each case will have it's own specifics, but you can pick up some information.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00VmyG">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00VmyG</a></p>

[William Michael]

<p>This question is asked often, but not usually with as much detail and response by the OP, well done. There are many angles to these scenarios – my thoughts on this particular situation:</p>

<p><strong><em>> “[his work] will be almost exclusively posed portrait photos.”</em></strong><br>

You have noted that this is an assumption on your part – have you confirmed what does actually constitute his role?</p>

<p><strong><em>> “I don't know if he has a "sole photographer" clause”</em></strong><br>

That doesn’t seem relevant apropos what you intend to do.</p>

<p><strong><em>> “or if he even has a contract with the bride he's apparently a family friend”</em></strong><br>

Perhaps.<br>

But perhaps this fact is more relevant than other points you have made.</p>

<p><strong><em>> “At the prior wedding . . . as a bridesmaid . . . I indulged in my photographic obsession. . . The photographer didn't appear to have any problem with my presence or my snapping additional pictures, but that may be because I had another ['official'] role to play.”</em></strong></p>

<p>Maybe.<br>

Or maybe it was because he was the Professional Photographer at that other Wedding and his contracted role at that Wedding was the more Formal & Portrait Shots and the Church Service and the Bride, as well as giving you the OK, also told the Photographer you (or someone) would also be doing the “getting ready shots”.<br>

If he is a Professional, he WILL remember you as:<br>

1. a “photographer”;<br>

2. as a Bridesmaid;<br>

3. and most importantly as a Bridesmaid who was a keen Photographer, <em>even though she was a Bridesmaid.</em></p>

<p><strong><em>> “I've offered to take some photos at this upcoming wedding”</em></strong><br>

That’s proactive.</p>

<p><strong><em>> “just as a supplement to the professional's work.” </em></strong><br>

Likely<strong><em> not “just as”</em></strong><br>

There usually are other reasons, not necessarily clandestine – but usually there are other, self serving reasons.</p>

<p><strong><em>> “That being said, I will be bringing my DSLR and a couple of lenses. One will be a pretty hefty zoom lens (100-400)”</em></strong><br>

This 100 to 400 lens appears to be one of the main areas of your concern. I think it is correct that it concerns you, but not for the reasons you appear to have yet considered.</p>

<p><strong><em>> “So the question is, would you be annoyed by my presence?”</em></strong><br>

Good question.<br>

But other than gathering a general but narrow opinion poll, it doesn’t serve much to know how the other Photographer will feel or react.<br>

My answer is: No, I would not be annoyed.<br>

I would be curious, alert and aware.<br>

I would be more alert and aware if I were a Family Friend and doing the gig Pro Bono - especially if <em>I had been asked so to do, by the Mum and Dad</em>, just as an example.</p>

<p><strong><em>> Would you prefer it if I introduced myself at the beginning? </em></strong><br>

I would not “prefer” it.<br>

Generally, I gave up a long time ago walking out my front door and “preferring” people to act in a certain manner.<br>

However, having done +1500 Weddings and having all types of “other shooters” attend, I can report it is rare for someone to come up and <strong><em>genuinely</em></strong> introduce themselves, considering the vast number of guests who bring above hobby grade P&S or DSLR cameras to Weddings.<br>

Some folk who carrying Pro-style equipment do come up and make themselves known or “tag along” in some manner or another, but few <strong><em>genuinely</em></strong> introduce themselves.</p>

<p><strong><em>> How far can a guest go before they start treading on a professional's terrain?</em></strong><br>

Well, it seems to me that you know the answer to that question with respect to what <em>you believe</em> is correct and acceptable protocol.<br>

It also seems that you know the <strong><em>interpretation</em></strong> of what is acceptable, or more correctly, <strong><em>what will be accepted,</em> </strong>is up to the individuals involved, on the day.<br>

It seems to me there would be more likelihood of establishing an harmonious beginning and avoiding any anxious moments, if you had a chat to the Photographer and that chat was prior to when his focus was 100% on his job.<br>

I guess about 99% of Professionals, in what ever endeavour, will react positively to someone genuinely introducing themselves in similar situations.’<br>

What do you do? Are you a School Teacher? – How many Parents (on the <strong><em>first</em></strong> day of a new school year and <strong><em>not </em></strong>at any formal teacher parent meeting, romp up and say, “Hi I am Jenny’s Mum, and I just wanted to introduce myself – I don’t want to step on your Professional toes but I do hear Jenny read every night - I just wanted to say Hi, so we are both on the same page and I can help you do the best for Jenny.<br>

Extreme example – yes – but it does make the point, IMO.<br>

You were quite proactive (even perhaps assertive?) about asking the Bride if you could take Photographs <strong><em>for her. </em></strong><br>

Certainly, IMO, it is an assertive / proactive act for a Bridesmaid to photograph several Getting Ready shots, as you described.</p>

<p><strong><em>> The suggestion that the 100-400 is a bit much is well taken, however, it is a far superior piece of glass to my other zoom lens and the anti-shake alone is worth the other issues .- </em></strong><br>

Maybe the IS seems of benefit to you.<br>

I suggest you actually have a play with the lens for two hours, that is, for TWO hours.<br>

And also note what FoV you get and at what shooting distances.<br>

Also what are the FL and Max. Av of your other lens(es)?<br>

And what lighting conditions do you expect? <strong><em> </em></strong><br>

And what body are you using?</p>

<p><strong><em>> I could see [the 100 to 400], helping me to be unobtrusive as possible while still getting some nice close ups.</em></strong><br>

<strong><em></em></strong><br>

Perhaps and I am sure that’s what you think. But IMO and in my experience you are dead wrong.</p>

<p>Neil wrote: <em>“</em><em>People with ultra long lenses tend to stand out for having unsuitable gear that they brought with them for the wrong reasons.”</em></p>

<p>Very rarely to I talk about “style”. More rarely do I talk about “my style” I am not a “Reportage” Photographer, not like Neil – but “my style” is predicated upon being unobtrusive, one of my techniques for being unobtrusive is, I rarely use a 70 to 200L or 300L or 400L at Weddings or Social Functions, because they are big and more importantly, because they are White.<br>

<br />Whilst others love their 70 to 200L and swear that it is a “must have” Wedding and Function Lens, I am not of that mind.</p>

<p>Also, “my style” is actually mostly predicated upon “close ups”: <a href="../photodb/folder?folder_id=964622">http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=964622</a></p>

<p>Pythagoras and the Theorems pertaining angles extend at the circumferences of circles of different radiuses, <em>the length of arc made at larger circles</em>, will explain why “nice close ups” are usually more easily obtained and <em>more easily managed</em> within the FL ranges: 35 to 85 on an APS-C camera and 50mm to 135mm on a 135format or “full frame” camera.</p>

<p>I acknowledge that the technique of working within these FL ranges seems less popular now: but fad and trend, do not change the mathematics of it.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p> </p>

[abargrill]

<p>In Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith cautioned that when competitors gather, conversation inevitably turns to price fixing. In other words, how can we cooperate to eliminate competiton? Smith's caution is well demonstrated here as many pros chime in to limit "competition" from the guests at the wedding, or, at least to express irritation with that "competition." In fact, guests bring cameras, guests take photos and guests frequently share photos with the wedding party. No introductions are necessary. Go to the wedding (without the 100-400 -- it is hard to dance with a partner and a howitzer), take your pictures and have fun.</p>