Black Paint M4

[tim_franklin]

Apologies in advance if this gets anyone's back up.

 

I have just placed an ad for my black paint M4 camera elsewhere

on site. It can be viewed <a

href="http://www.photo.net/gc/view-one.tcl?classified_ad_id=496

648"> here</a>.<p>One of the photos referred to in the ad is

(sorry for finger marks on the camera!):<br><center><img

src="http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=102

0334&size=lg"></center><br>If unsold inside the next week (ie

ending 26th September 2002), the camera will be placed "you

know where"!

[eliot]

Tim. The SN you posted (no. 1228504) is not on the official list of factory painted original black M4s. According to Leica, that SN is for a chrome lens, suggesting that it was probably repainted. In that case, there is no way a camera like that could be worth anything near 2500 pounds sterling. Repainted black cameras are worth maybe a couple of hundred dollars more than the chrome version. You should perhaps not lead people to believe this is an original black paint camera without suitable documentation.

[tim_franklin]

Hi Eliot.<br>

Yes, this is something I'm aware of. Right now I can only say that

the finish to my eyes is of equal quality to any other factory

finished black paint camera I 've seen. <p>I have in recent

months seen two non-original black cameras; the first was an

M3, which could perhaps best be described as a reverse "panda

M6" (ie the fittings on the top plate - wind-on, speed dial, release

and rewind kob were all chrome). I didn't take a close look at this

as it held no interest for me. The second however was an M2,

which at some point in its life had been converted to M2-R

status, and given a black finish. I inspected this camera closely,

and found the paint finish to be crude compared to a factory done

example. <b>If</b> this is a non-original camera, then it has

been done by a consumate professional.<p>I am very happy for

any potential purchaser to make a personal inspection (indeed

for UK buyers I would expect nothing less), and would refund

anyone not satisfied.

[sl]

Tim, you seem to be missing the point, the reason that Black Paint Ms are so valuable is because of the 'serial number' meaning they came from the factory with the paint. Anything else is of much less value.

[tim_franklin]

Steve,<br>

I am saying that the finish is of such a high standard that I

believe it to be a factory original <i>regardless</i> of serial

number. Judging by the converted M2-R referred to above, 3rd

party repaintings are "heavy" in terms of the finish of the paint

(hope that is understandable)<p>Whilst I fully agree that the

published information on serials and other matters must guide

us, I do not believe it should be treated as Holy Writ. I would very

much like to confirm this one way or the other, but suspect that

even if Leica had such detailed information to hand, it would take

very many months to find it. Perhaps the only ways would be (i) to

ask the previous owner, but I understand he is a Japanese

gentleman, or (ii) submit the camera to a real expert to get a

judgement on whether the finish is "genuine" or an aftermarket

addition.<p>At some point the camera has been serviced or

repaired by Boulder Camera Repair (not a company I'm familiar

with - maybe some US forum readers are?). There is a sticker

on the underside of the shutter crate (on the loading diagram)

with the number 1-23-80 (a date probably) followed by 2779 or

2774 which I hope is a repair log number. If it still exists, this

might identify the appearance of this camera at that time.

[skip_williams]

Tim, I agree with Steve on this issue. The published list of serial numbers (the most easily accessible of which is on www.cameraquest.com) shows that your serial number was a batch of 9200 Chrome M4's produced in Jan 1969. Below are the ranges of S#s.

 

1/22/69 M4 Black 1225001 1225800 800

 

1/22/69 M4 1225801 1235000 9200

 

So the real "value" to a collector for a black paint M4 is owning one that was factory original black paint. It's not rational, but it's typically the rule. I also can't see how anyone could "certify" that your camera was re-painted at the factory, or that it was originally black in contrary to all the published records. Perhaps if you had the original sales receipt or box with the serial number and factory writing that said it was black, someone might believe it??

 

But if you can get £2,400 for the camera on Ebay, you're a better salesman than I am. Good luck.

 

BTW, it's a nice looking camera, wherever it was painted.

[skip_williams]

One more thing - I've read many places that the original black paint finishes on the M3, M2, and M4's was of inferior quality to what is being done today by the best re-finishers. So be cautious that you don't conclude that a high-quality paint job means it was factory-original. In fact, many of the original black M's are very brassy and many have big spots of brass where the paint bubbled up after hard use. (Don't forget, they were typically special-order photojournalist models)

[i want my photo.net histor]

Tim,

 

I could go out and buy a shelby cobra replica nad build it up to the same specs as an original shelby cobra. Is it as good as the original, probably. Is it worth as much, no way.

 

All I would ask is that now you know there may be some doubt other this camera to check it out before selling.

 

All the best,

[roger_michel]

previously owned by a japanese gentleman??? was his name shintaro??? there are many people today who are doing baked finishes on m cameras that are as good, if not better, than the factory paint jobs. indeed, i've seen some fairly sloppy m4 factory jobs.

[richie chishty]

Last time I checked, Shintaro was charging US$500 to paint Leica M cameras. His black paint finish is as good if not better than anything done at the Leica factory.

[tim_franklin]

Was the guy Shintaro? I dunno��I never met him. I was told

he'd been using the camera for 30 odd years, and that's about all

I know.

 

Anyway, check this <a

href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=138

1354556"> auction</a> for a black M2 (serial 1075xxx). Same

deal here - seller claims <i>original finish</i>, but the serials

don't match up.

[tim_franklin]

The camera referred to above <b>is</b> actually on the

Cameraquest list, but <b>not</b> in the various books I have. In

any case, I would refer people to this quote from Stephen

Gandy's excellent site<p><i>Of special note are the rare and

expensive black paint bodies and military M's. While the list is

probably as accurate as we are going to have, it has long been

accepted by Leica collectors that some real black bodies are

"not on the list."</i>

[sl]

An additional thought: I have a factory original Black Paint M2 with the 'proper' serial number. It is very brassy, with dents, in general pretty beat up. Strangely it is mechanically perfect--confirmed by Leica. As beat up as it is, the approximate value is $4000, because it has the 'correct' serial number. BTW, this M2 is my everyday camera for 17 years now.

 

In addition I have a M2 and M3 black painted by Shintaro which are high quality paint jobs. When I got these cameras back from Shintaro I noticed a similarity between his paint and the '60's black paint Nikon Fs that i have. So I asked him and he answered that the paint he uses is the same paint used by Nikon for the Fs in the 1960s. After 2 years of regular use they are starting to brass up, and in another 5 years they should look pretty ripe.

[tim_franklin]

Yeah, saw the dynamic trio in that pack shot you posted here a

while ago Steve.

 

If there aren't any takers I may well keep the M4 after all - I only

put it up as I'm in the process of buying a black M2 (after its had

a thorough CLA), and could have done with the spare cash to

avoid a savings raid!

[eliot]

Tim. M2 camera black paint SN 1075203 most offered on eBay by Collecteur-Leica certainly is on the original black paint list. The list on Stephen gandy's website is the only definitive list. This is the list that came directly from the Leica factory from the President of leica. For a collector, it's really simple, if it's not on the list it is considered repainted unless proven otherwise. To prove it was original, you would need records from Leica or else the original box with the serial number of the camera on it with the code number for a black paint M4, which was different from a chrome M4. How good the quality of the finish is not really relevant, since people like Shintaro in Japan (and several others, eg., GB Metzcar in USA) can do work that is at least as good as the Leica factory in the 1960s when this camera was made.

[rolfe_tessem]

To a skilled technician, the answer to whether it is a repaint or not is found on the inside of the camera, not the outside. Shintaro deliberately does not repaint some interior items specifically so that his work is not passed off as factory paint original.

 

I heard a story from a third party that a Leica collector flew Sherry Krauter to Europe to inspect a camera he was considering for this very reason. The story goes that she looked inside for the telltale signs of factory black paint, and then gave the collector the bad news that it was a repaint. He was supposedly very grateful.