Color and Digital Workflow, Issue

[henryimages]

<p>

<p >I’m fine-tuning my digital workflow and would appreciate any feedback, tips or recommendations for improving the process. One of the problems I’m currently having is an orange hue for skin tones on my sRGB web files as viewed on other computers (PCs at home and work). The orange hue is not there on the original files (I do adjust/match the white balance settings in camera according to the light source or manually set the temp before shooting). I’ve tried to adjust the color in Photoshop but it seems to have limited effect after I optimize the file for online use. Here is my equipment and current workflow:</p>

<p >Nikon D90, 12.3mp, Adobe RGB, JPEG, fine, medium size (should I shoot in RAW?)</p>

<p >MacBook Pro, Display=Adobe RGB (should I use ProPhoto RGB?)</p>

<p >Import into Lightroom II:</p>

<p > Export as: JPEG, Adobe RGB, 100%, 300 dpi, long edge 1608</p>

<p >Import into Photoshop, export as:</p>

<p > Web: JPEG, Quality = 90%, Optimized, W=800px, Convert to sRGB</p>

<p > Print: “Save As,” JPEG, Quality=12, Maximum, Baseline “Standard”</p>

<p >I prefer the color of the non-converted sRGB files, but I’ve read that the files should be converted to sRGB for maximum consistency across platforms.</p>

<p >I’ve been uploading files to Ritz for printing and use the original file size option (instead of “faster upload”) but I haven’t been 100% happy with the prints; the clarity/sharpness has been somewhat lacking, but not always.</p>

<p >Victor</p>

</p>

[colin_mattson1]

<p>The display's profile should never be a working space. The display profile is specific to the display. Apple provides a reasonable default for all their notebooks and monitors; if you need a better one, you need to buy a colorimeter. A large part of your problem is likely stemming from that single misstep (as it's going to screw up what you're seeing pretty well).</p>

<p>As far as printing, (1) make sure Ritz is running your jobs with no correction, and (2) try making use of Lightroom's print sharpening if you're not already. Some clarity/sharpness loss is unavoidable in lab printing, but you've also got an unholy trifecta of JPEG/JPEG/JPEG going on that's going to eat at the image as well. Unless you have a specific reason not to shoot RAW, yes, I'd recommend shooting RAW (or RAW+JPEG if you need a "finished" file to look at).</p>

[cphoto]

<p>Has your monitor been calibrated? If not, do that before any other change. Use the Apple monitor calibrator in System Preferences/displays/color.<br>

Your monitor should use Adobe RGB, not ProPhoto RGB.<br>

Open the Utilities app. Go to Coloorsync Utility and run the profile verificatioin tool, let it repair your profiles. Do not delete anything.<br>

Suggest shooting a RAW shot to see if you get the same color cast. I shoot RAW+JPG all the time.<br>

Let Lightroom export as SRGB. No need to add the extra step. No need to save as quality 12 either. In fact, I quit using the save for web, optimize, routine a long time ago. Remember, web use is always 72 ppi. Send to Ritz as an original file without converting to web use in Photoshop.<br>

Can you post a picture for us to look at?</p>

[henryimages]

<p>Thank you Colin and Charles. I used the Colorsync utility and no errors were reported on 49 profiles. <br>

Part of the issue is that over the holidays I switched from PC to Mac, and for 2-3 weeks I was using the default display setting on the MacBook, and yet working in Lightroom and Photoshop under Adobe RGB. When I viewed some of my files on another machine, I completely freaked out because minor touch-up marks were showing erroneously on the other monitor. I went back and had to re-work many files. That issue has been resolved, thankfully. But I'm still slightly paranoid about color settings.<br>

I'm uploading an Adobe RGB file that, on my MacBook looks fine to me. There is hardly any orange in it; it's the way I intend it to look. The second file will be the sRGB converted file from Photoshop. It looks orangish to me.</p>

<div></div>

[henryimages]

<p>error</p>

[henryimages]

<p>Next one...</p><div></div>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<blockquote>

<p>One of the problems I’m currently having is an <strong>orange hue for skin tones on my sRGB web files as viewed on other computers (PCs at home and work). </strong>The orange hue is not there on the original files (I do adjust/match the white balance settings in camera according to the light source or manually set the temp before shooting). <strong>I’ve tried to adjust the color</strong> in Photoshop but it seems to have limited effect after I optimize the file for online use.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Are those other computers calibrated and the image viewed in a color managed web browser?</p>

<p>If not, you'll have to re-edit all of those files you tried to make look correct on displays not calibrated especially when you say this...</p>

<blockquote>

<p>...and for 2-3 weeks I was using the <strong>default display setting on the MacBook</strong>, and yet working in Lightroom and Photoshop under Adobe RGB.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Go back to square one and never work this way again. All displays today MUST BE CALIBRATED because they are all built with different technologies that changes their color descriptors. They have to be measured with a hardware device and written in the form of an accurate profile to tell color managed apps how to render hue, saturation and density. You must view sRGB images in a color managed browser especially on wide gamut displays.</p>

<p>You've now edited your images in this environment making it impossible to troubleshoot over the web.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

[Uhooru]

<p>No, the monitor should not be in a color space. Not Adobe rgb, not srgb. The monitor profile is completely different. Use the default adobe or their utility or better a spyder or such device to generate a monitor specific profile. Your images are in a color space, usually Adobe RGB, SRGB or ProPHoto. Sometimes working an image in one color space and then opening in another will cause the photo to look different due to the different color parameters of the different working spaces.</p>

[henryimages]

<p>Tim, I think you only caught one part of what I was saying. True, I was working incorrectly for 2-3 weeks, meaning my display, digital file color profile settings, and software workspace were not on the same page. I have since corrected this problem. The workflow on my machine seems to be working well at this point. EXCEPT... <strong>when I convert Adobe RGB image files to sRGB for online viewing, I see bigger changes to my images than I would like to see</strong>. My question is: Is this normal? Does converting to sRGB alter the way the image looks, as in the samples I posted above? Or am I doing something wrong in the conversion process? Should I accept these changes and move on, or do I need to take an extra step to correct this problem? <br>

For clarification: My display is set to Adobe RGB, and files in my camera are set to Adobe RGB.<br>

The other part of my question was simply soliciting advice for any improvements or changes to my current workflow as stated in the original post. I appreciate the feedback. </p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<blockquote>

<p>My display is set to Adobe RGB,...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not sure where you've set this, but I'll assume for the sake of this discussion you have AdobeRGB working space highlighted/clicked on in OS X's Display Preferences panel. If so, and you've been editing images with this setup, there's no telling what color is suppose to look like on your system. Converting images to sRGB isn't the problem except in what FINAL application it's being viewed.</p>

<p>So again I ask, what application/applications are you viewing these sRGB images that show this color change? You haven't indicated, yet. Until you do, no one can help you here.</p>

<p>Also I don't think you fully understand the concept of color management which requires each device in the workflow chain be measured accurately and have the resultant data written into a profile for color managed applications to accurately show contrast/density, hue and saturation the way you intended in your edits and in unedited images from other devices like a scanner or digital camera.</p>

[henryimages]

<p>Tim, You are correct, I do not fully understand it, and that is why I am posting on this forum for advice and recommendations. If I fully understood it, I wouldn't have posted. <br>

When I say "display is set to Adobe RGB," that is exactly what I mean. The OS Display preference is set to Adobe RGB. My camera settings preference is set to Adobe RGB. If this is not how one is supposed to choose preferences, then please advise. <br>

As I said above, I am viewing images in Lightroom, and Photoshop. I also view the images in Safari as well as the basic system image viewer. On other machines, I view the images in Mozilla Firefox and Internet Explorer. The problem mainly seems to occur with skin tones, and specifically images turning more orangish after conversion to sRGB. </p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>My advice is to not set your display profile to AdobeRGB in Display Preferences. You need to build a custom profile by calibrating either by eye using OS X's Calibrator (in Advanced Mode) accessed through Display Preferences or purchase a hardware calibrator like the Huey or whatever you can afford which is highly recommended.</p>

<p>Select the newly made custom profile in Display Preferences. If your images don't look as intended in Photoshop, you'll have to re-edit.</p>

<p>Make sure you view on calibrated systems in color managed apps like Safari all of your sRGB images making sure you embed the sRGB profile in image after converting and saving if you want consistent results.</p>

[patricklavoie]

<p>1_Export as: JPEG, Adobe RGB, 100%, 300 dpi, long edge 1608</p>

<p>When i export as JPEG i always do it in a sRGB colorspae since this file is for the web or to be send to a external lab. best not to use Adobe RGB in those case.</p>

<p>2_A laptop monitor is not suite for color critical situation, best to get a better external monitor for that job. So it could be that you use a profile that is too blue to work with (like anything you have for choice in your color calibration screen panel preference) making evetyhing way too orange in real life.</p>

<p>3_Presently your image converted or not are way too orange, so by using a hue saturation targeting the red and / or the yellow you can drop this cast while keeping it a bit for mood to at least 25%.</p>

<p>4_And you should at least set your laptop monitor to color lcd as a start, but to a calibrated custom profile using a calibrating device of course. You dont set you monitor to a color space like srgb or adobe rgb for sure. So you are still working not correctly as today doing so.</p>

<p> </p>

[sebastianmoran]

<p>Color spaces and profiles can produce some very confusing results. As an example of this confusion, your two photos of Rachel posted here have identical bits and appear identical. You wrote "converted to sRGB" but I suspect you did "Edit... Assign profile... sRGB" which is different. When they get to my browser, both are "RGB" which may be a "feature" of the photo.net server. Your photo of Rachel is a very elegant image, by the way.</p>

<p>Mac is different from PC in important respects. The Preview and Safari applications on Mac have Color Management; I understand the equivalent programs on PC do not. There's much detail in this area that you probably don't want to know.</p>

<p>I'm on a Mac. Here's what works for me, following your outline.</p>

 

<ol>

<li>Nikon dSLRs, sRGB for casual shooting, AdobeRGB when more serious, always RAW+JPG.</li>

<li>MacBook Pro... Return your display profile to Apple defaults. Calibrate it would be even better as others have said above.</li>

<li>Import into Lightroom</li>

<li>"Develop" (i.e. adjust) in Lightroom. For some images, I use the Lightroom menu to Edit in Photoshop, and return the processed image to Lightroom.</li>

<li>Sometimes I'll export from Photoshop using Save As. If so, and if shot in AdobeRGB, I first use "Edit... Convert to Profile... sRGB." </li>

<li>Most all my exports are from Lightroom.</li>

<li>For web: in Lightroom, Export, resize long edge=700, JPEG, sRGB, Sharpen... for screen.</li>

<li>For 4x6 prints: in Lightroom, Export, resize long edge=1800, JPEG, sRGB, Sharpen... for prints.</li>

</ol>

<p>A couple of additional notes:</p>

<ul>

<li>Shooting raw is a life-saver from some photos. RAW file contains more information. Camera JPG is easier and quicker. You choose.</li>

<li>Use AdobeRGB only while you have the file in Photoshop, an Inkjet printer, or a Color Managed application. If in doubt, and for all "Newbies" shoot and process in sRGB.</li>

<li>Convert (not assign) to sRGB for any file going anywhere else. To Costco, to Ritz, to a friend, to the web, anywhere. Read about "convert" vs. "assign" to understand the difference, or stick with sRGB everywhere.</li>

<li>When you Export from lightroom and specify sRGB, the program does the right thing (convert).</li>

<li>Viewing an AdobeRGB file on a non-color-managed application (e.g. all browsers on PC) produces gross color shifts; avoid this at all costs. </li>

<li>In comparison, the shifts involved in calibrating the display and the in <em>converting</em> color profiles are small in my experience. First get your profiles right. Then, if still concerned, you might want to calibrate the display.</li>

<li>If you are exporting, long edge=1603, you've lost resolution when printed at Ritz or Costco. I always use 300 ppi and "do not adjust"; I'm very happy with the prints.</li>

</ul>

<p>I wish you good shooting.</p>

<p>Your display profile is definitely causing problems. Here's what the Displays preference looks like for me.</p><div></div>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

Do not use "Color LCD" as your display profile while editing your images in color managed applications.

 

Here are the reasons:

 

1. The calibration curves embedded in that profile that causes your entire screen to change when you click on it making grays a certain color cast and brightness level are built and mated to a particular gamma and backlight brightness setting written into the display's EDID rom chip by the factory. The user and other CM apps don't know the settings they used to attain those numbers.

 

2. Usually clicking on that default "Color LCD" profile makes your screen brighter even though you didn't touch the Brightness slider which is suppose to be controlled by the display's backlight. This makes the descriptors for gamma and color temp embedded in that profile arbitrary and ill defined which will prevent CM apps to render an accurate preview when editing images.

[patricklavoie]

<p>ditn know that!? good thing i use a calibrator ; )</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

Yeah, just noticed how light and washed out Richards sRGB converted screengrab is which indicates "Color LCD" doesn't have a standard 2.2 gamma and I doubt even a 1.8 for that matter. On a truly calibrated to 2.2 gamma display OS X's interface shows more intense and richer blues and yellows as do my screengrabs. Just using OS X's eyeball calibrator will get you closer to calibration standards than "Color LCD".

[sebastianmoran]

<p>Tim... Interesting. I used the Apple calibrator and set gamma=2.2; it was at 1.8. I see what you mean about "light and washed out." </p>

<p>Still, the OP doesn't want the display set to "Adobe RGB"... That looks awful on my MacBook Pro.</p>

<p>If one doesn't use a measuring device to calibrate the MacBook Pro display, what is the best course of action? Start with Sys Prefs... Displays... Color... 'Color LCD' then Calibrate, gamma=2.2, native white point, and save the profile? (This looks pretty good here; I couldn't get a good grey when I tried the Apple Calibrator with "Expert" options.)</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

Richard, it depends on the quality of the panel used in the MBP. I've used OS X's eyeball calibrator on some Mac laptops in BestBuy and found the panels were so bad that it required positioning the raster target button for neutrality on the outer borders of the graph and I still couldn't get decent neutrality judged by viewing a grayramp. You could use "Color LCD" if it gives better neutrality but you'ld have to use a grayramp target in a color managed app to set the system Brightness level by eye to match a proper 1.8 gamma curve response that's embedded in that default profile so Photoshop renders 2.2 gamma tagged images properly. That's the main issue with "Color LCD". Also the backlight adjusting while viewing a color or gray target could create unintended hue/saturation shifts in color managed images in Photoshop. You're better off using OS X's eyeball calibrator if you can't get a hold of a hardware calibration device.

[henryimages]

<p>Thank you for the responses. I will admit, though, that I am still confused. BUT... I am learning, and I appreciate the dialogue.<br>

Richard- I did not "assign" to sRGB, but used Photoshop's feature that does specify "convert to." It is this <strong>one single step</strong> where, on my machine, I notice the color changes to the images. Everything else is consistent throughout, at least to my eyes. <br>

I will explore using the internal colorimeter to create a custom profile. if at the end of the day I need to work with an external color measuring device, then I will consider purchasing one. I read that the Spyder II is a good device.</p>

<p> </p>

[sebastianmoran]

<p>@Tim, the OS X calibrator has a basic sequence: Gamma and white point.</p>

<p>There's an advanced panel in which you try to match a gray to a grid of black and white stripes. I could not get a decent result from the advanced panel; no matter where I put the two-dimensional slider, all grays took on a color cast. </p>

<p>I backed out and just used the basic set. Gamma at 2.2 makes a punchier display. White point = Native or 6500 both looked good. I think my grays are fine. Thanks for the pointer. </p>

[sebastianmoran]

<p>@Vincent, for what it's worth, if I set my display profile to "Adobe RGB"... The result is my grays take on an awful cast and your Rachel image on this page looks <em>better</em> (less orangeish).</p>

<p>I do suggest you go back to the basic Apple setup for the display, profile=ColorLCD, then gamma=2.2, whitepoint=native. Then adjust the Rachel image so it looks right after Convert... sRGB, put it on the web and take a look on various machines. Glad to hear you used Convert, not Assign. Still confused about the Rachel image since both your examples look identical to me (Mac... Safari).</p>

<p>I never see very much color shift when I do "Convert... sRGB" in PhotoShop. I'm surprised you do. I keep the reference files for my images in AdobeRGB if shot in that space, and "Convert... sRGB" as a last step before exporting.</p>

<p>Anyone, I'm curious for feedback on my suggested workflow, the eight numbered steps above.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

They shouldn't look identical to you, Richard, because neither has an embedded profile at least when I download those images and open in Photoshop there's no profile, but then I'm in Mac OS 9 using 2003 Mozilla browser so they may have gotten stripped. They do look different on my sRGB gamut Dell 2209WA viewing in a non-color managed browser. Check for embedded profiles by doing the same as I did making sure you get the prompt in Photoshop that they're missing. Other than that another reason for identical previews is your MBP's color gamut is so narrow that the saturation has been reduced significantly on such a one color type of image. And your 8 step workflow looks fine to me.

[digitaldog]

<p>Victor, this is really simple actually. First, you need to use a good hardware device and calibrate and profile your display on a regular basis (these are not standardized nor stable devices). See:<br>

<a href="http://www.takegreatpictures.com/HOME/Columns/Digital_Photography/Details/Color_Management_and_Display.fci">Color Management and your display</a></p>

<p>Next, use a color managed browser and suggest to any and everyone they do the same. Save the documents in sRGB (and unless you’re uploading a million files, go ahead and embed the 4k profile) for web output. The previews in such browsers (Safari and FireFox) will produce the same previews as Photoshop, Lightroom and any other ICC, color management aware application. </p>

<p>Understand that anyone using any other process may not and likely will not see a match. That’s why we have ICC aware applications. </p>

[henryimages]

<p>Andrew- Thank you!</p>