Client selling my wedding photos on her SmugMug site

[stevenseelig]

<p>This is not legal advice but business advice. If she really is selling the pictures AND making a profit worth worrying about then I would encourage you to cultivate a strong relationship with her so perhaps she would do some marketing efforts on your behalf. But more likely she may be selling them and is not making a profit on it, but just maybe one of her friends, knowing that your business really likes to help their clients celebrate their special day, will call you up and ask that you take their wedding as well. Consider it advertising.</p>

[davebell]

<p>"My prices are structured in a way that I don't have to rely on print orders. I also provide clients with an online gallery on SM so their guests can order prints."</p>

<p>These two sentences do contradict each other somewhat. Before jumping to conclusions you need to know the facts. As for Veronica Smith's response about it being 110% illegal, well thats just a prime example of getting one's knickers in a knot before knowing the facts!</p>

<p>If your pricing is such that you don't rely on print sales, then let them do with the CD of images what they wish. I offer full rez DVDs of all edited images, in all my packages. The clients can do with them what they wish, I don't care. I have sold them the CD/DVD and thats it. I would prefer more and more people to see my work than get all high and mighty and threaten legal action at the expense of goodwill and refferals. You either price your package for print sales or you don't, and then word your contract accordingly.</p>

[tholte]

<p>"Unless any of these guys is a registered lawyer, we shouldn't even be talking." Alin, you don't quite get it, the internet is for everyone to pretend they are lawyers and to freely give advice, accurate or not.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>What's the impact of this? If the gallery is password protected, and you can't figure out how to get in, wouldn't it follow that the general public probably won't, either? This would imply that only a subset of people who knew the password would be able to see the photos. Perhaps those people would be her friends.</p>

<p>It may just be that it's another form of using the internet to get a print to Aunt Edna in another city. Even if your client were trying to be devious and rake in lots of cash while usurping credit, what are the chances that she would be successful?</p>

<p>Sometimes when it seems like people are conspiring to do somebody wrong, it's not a conspiracy of strength; instead, it's often a conspiracy of weakness. Instead of trying to take power, they may be trying to do whatever they normally do, and solve some simple problem or inadequacy along the way.</p>

<p>She's probably not going to try to put your photo on the cover of Big Bride magazine; there's probably a bridesmaid or great uncle who wants a print, but barely knows how to click on it. Or, they want their own password so that some third cousin's second boyfriend doesn't stalk down her picture on the internet or something; so, she transfers the link to a password protected site, and advertises that one.</p>

<p>It could be a bunch of stuff that may have little to do with you. Maybe downshift on the worry and pencil in a follow up call on the calendar in a couple of days.</p>

[josephbraun]

<p>would you rather be right or happy? that's how i see it :) I say move on, and revise your policy for the future clients.</p>

[bryan_lardizabal]

<p>Didn't read this entire thread but one solution is to have photos available for review and purchase on a private website that the OP would host. This way they pay the photog directly and there are no questions.<br>

Also, how cheesy is it for the client to post them knowing that Flickr, Smugmug, etc. sells them?<br>

These photo service websites such as Flickr, Smugmug, etc. allow anyone to post photos. The question is whether or not it is "legal" for others accessing them, to purchase photos as part of the added services these photo websites provide, and does Smugmug and others violate your agreement....a very grey area indeed.<br>

Finally, hiring an attorney would just add big $$$ and aggravation, pain and suffering....</p>

 

[Emmanuel Enyinwa]

<p>First, I AM a lawyer, but, as we always do, I will preface this by saying that this post should NOT be construed as legal advice, and that you SHOULD consult YOUR lawyer for advice taylored to ALL the facts not the limited facts you have provided here. First, you don't even tell us what COUNTRY this took place, which makes all the difference, as laws vary from, say England to the US, to Mozambique.</p>

<p>All that said, I would say that this strikes me as much ado about nothing. The bottom line here is that she's NOT selling the prints on EBay with the potential for thousands of dollars. At the very most, he makes, oh, up to $60 selling the prints to family. Tacky, yes. After all, we GAVE AWAY our wedding prints, including those I took, even while I was the groom. But, the real problem, besides proving ownership of the prints he OFFERED to sell (you have no receipts to prove he actually sold any), is the fact that even if you prevail, you still end up with nominal damages, much less than your attorney fees. I know because my hourly fees are in the six figures.</p>

<p>Still, you are not totally without recourse, as you can easily have your lawyer write a strongly worded cease and desist letter to smugmug (quite a name) and tell them they will get a Napster styled suit slapped on their smug mugs, if they do not desist from facilitating the sale of copyrighted material on their site. A decent lawyer will add teeth to this letter, and their legal department will no doubt harrass the culprit to remove the add, and issue you an apology.</p>

<p>Just my two cents. </p>

[photom]

<p>I would contact the client via phone first and tell them in a friendly way how much you enjoyed doing work for them and would like to have them refer you business, BUT offering to sell prints is against the contract agreement. Tell them to please, take down the offer to order prints and that you do not really want to get your attorney involved but this, again, is a very important contract infringement. Follow this up with an email of the same basic communication. Do not waste your time with Smug Mug. If this does not work, just forget about it and make sure you have more control of the photos next time if you need profit from the prints by giving only very low resolution files or water mark, or printed proof book.</p>

<p>I would be surprised if the client is actually making a profit selling the prints, more likely they are asking for money just to cover the costs of the printing. Unfortunately, in todays digital world wedding clients are getting used to wedding packages being priced where the photographer makes their required profit without selling prints and people know this. So, they do not feel guilty for not ordering prints through the photographer.</p>

[ernest-b]

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=1147262">Emmanuel Enyinwa</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/2rolls.gif" alt="" title="Frequent poster" /> </a> , Dec 22, 2009; 10:41 a.m. wrote:<br /> <em>"First, I AM a lawyer...</em> <br /> <em>"...even if you prevail, you still end up with nominal damages, much less than your attorney fees. I know because my hourly fees are in the six figures." </em></p>

<p>WOW! What kind of lawyer are you? Is there a decimal point anywhere in those six figures?</p>

<p>I was under the impression that only Bank of America and Goldman Sachs CEO's could take in $100,000+ per hour.....</p>

<p>(edit) Just realized that I don't know what country you are writing from. Maybe the six figures are denominated in a very different currency (not dollars/pounds/euros)? If so, my apologies for a too-quick response.</p>

[w_t1]

<p>So your lawyer is on vacation, you should leave her or him a voice mail or shoot him an email. Most professionals today have the smart phones with email etc, I don't know any lawyer/doctor/engineer that wouldn't take a spare moment while on vacation to look at potential work, I mean last time I used a lawyer I think he billed in 15 min. increments lol. "Hey kids, I just billed two hours, you DO get that Xbox after all...."</p>

<p>I also agree with Senor's comment about email. It absolutely sucks for a first communication effort in something like this. Things get misconstrued easily. Better just to call the bride.</p>

[sven_felsby]

<p>I fail to see the problem. Didn´t she pay for the photos? The way the OP characterizes the problem, it sounds as if the photos were press photos that could have given him a substantial income, had they no been published. This is hardly the case.</p>

[john_jennings2]

<p>I am not that familiar with SmugMug, but I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. No service could afford to stay in business if they had to spend the time/money to arbitrate every little beef that comes along. <br>

They would be at fault for giving out unauthorized passwords. Period.</p>

[scott_murphy_photography]

<p>Were it me, I would contact the client first and find out exactly what she means by buying prints before I got the loi-yiz involved. She may be doing something illegal, but at the same time she may not. Since I am neither a loi-yah, and it has been years since I stayed at a Holiday Inn, I think that is the best course of action.</p>

[Emmanuel Enyinwa]

<p>To Ernest B.,</p>

<p><em>""First, I AM a lawyer...</em> <br /><em>"...even if you prevail, you still end up with nominal damages, much less than your attorney fees. I know because my hourly fees are in the six figures." </em><br>

WOW! What kind of lawyer are you? Is there a decimal point anywhere in those six figures?"<br>

Ah, my mistake! My fees are in the THREE figures.</p>

[sven_felsby]

<p>how very interesting to read about lawyer fees. </p>

[brett_y]

<p>Probably a good idea to take a deep breth and relax. If it was my wedding pics, from my wedding, I would have put them up so if anyone wants they can pay for the prints (the cost smugmug charges to have them printed and sent). And nothing more. It doesn't look like you have been given access to their page yet. This seems like you are getting way bent out of shape for nothing. Did they seem like the kind of people that would try to make a profit off their family? Did they charge for guests to go to their wedding? Can smugmug be set up so that the bride and groom pay for prints that people want? No offense, but it doesn't sound like you're a world famous photographer who's photos are worth thousands.... All you're going to do here is piss people off who would have, most likely, given you a good word of mouth boost. Do you still have their phone number? Just give them a call and ask tactfully if they are selling their pictures for profit or just for cost of printing.</p>

[markci]

<p>I think you probably need to find a way to pick up the pieces of your shattered life and move on.</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>As I see it. She may very well be selling your images online with smugmug at their default prices, which means that she isn't making any money from the deal but she can be completely circumventing your ability to sell reprints to family, friends, and guests. Once you give clients a disk with their images you lose control over reprints. Even if your contract limits the use of the prints to their own personal use it would be difficult for you to identify any measurable damage amounts from their offering them online to family and friends and pretty much impossible for you to track lost revenue from their sharing digital files between eachother or simply supplying family/friends copies of your images on a disk.</p>

<p>I understand and sympathize with your situation although several posters here on the forum are thinking more like uneducated consumers rather than photographers and studio owners. Your best bet is to evolve your business model so that reprint sales are less of an issue as some have mentioned above. However, no one has suggested that you change how you deliver the disks of the files.....you might want to offer the files after a period of six months, one year, or two years after the date of the wedding. This gives you time to sell some reprints during the optimum period post-wedding and still provide the B/G the images on a disk.</p>

<p>BTW, I understand and agree with smugmug's response to the situation. I'm sure that idealistically that they sympathize with your situation but they're really not in a position to play ethics police.</p>

[gabriella_lucia]

<p><em>Really what are going to recover, a couple of hundred dollars? I would move on to the next job and get over it. It's not like you shot anyone that people are really give a rat's a$$ about.</em></p>

[William Michael]

<p ><strong ><em >“I understand and sympathize with your situation although several posters here on the forum are thinking more like uneducated consumers rather than photographers and studio owners. Your best bet is to evolve your business model so that reprint sales are less of an issue as some have mentioned above. However, no one has suggested that you change how you deliver the disks of the files.....you might want to offer the files after a period of six months, one year, or two years after the date of the wedding. This gives you time to sell some reprints during the optimum period post-wedding and still provide the B/G the images on a disk.”</em></strong></p>

<p ><strong ><em > </em></strong></p>

<p >Ah, David - I have missed (meaning “been wanting”) your comments of late . . . and not just on this thread.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >You might give me half a point because I kind of suggested that the business should be structured such that one does not need to be the Policewoman setting about enforcing ridiculous and impossible rules and regulations.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Whilst it was suggested and implied (severally) that the price the Client pays should cover the eventuality of them reprinting several images . . . a suggestion of a specific delivery date, post the Wedding was not suggested – and IMO that is a good model to consider.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >However, I find it both interesting and important that Katrin D., stated as fact that her business model implies that she is not fiscally disadvantaged by this scenario: (op cit) <em >“My prices are structured in a way that I don't have to rely on print orders.” </em> and in this regard, I agree with Marc W. – so what is the big problem, in the first place?</p>

<p ><em > </em></p>

<p >That noted – I reckon that your idea of a remodelled delivery, is one which should be considered.</p>

<p ><strong ><em > </em></strong></p>

<p ><strong ><em >“BTW, I understand and agree with smugmug's response to the situation. I'm sure that idealistically that they sympathize with your situation but they're really not in a position to play ethics police.”</em></strong></p>

<p ><strong ><em > </em></strong></p>

<p >Me too . . . their business is NOT the business of resolving disputes (like this): there is no value in it for them.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Merry Christmas, David.</p>

<p > <br>

WW</p>

[sherijohnson]

<p>unless she has a pro account, she wouldn't be able to sell anything through her smugmug account</p>

[rt_jones]

<p>

 

<p>If this bride is able to sell prints when you can't I'd congratulate her and ask for advice on how to do it myself.</p>

 

</p>

[felix_mizioznikov]

<p>smugmug is not doing anything wrong. if she's selling the photos you took then you can seek for damages. If she's selling photos from the wedding that you did not take then she is able to do that.<br>

I'd wait a few months to sue her, this way smugmug records could be subpoenad by attorney and you could seek to sue her for her sales profits. Make sure the contract is clear and precise as to your policy in regards to photo copyrights</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>Sheri, with a pro account you can set your prices on smugmug however the bride can certainly sell prints at smugmug's default print prices with whatever account she has.</p>

<p>RT, seriously, have you read the thread? Selling prints at lab costs is pretty simple but pays less than zero for a professional studio in the way of any kind of a profit.</p>

<p>WW, Merry Christmas :-)</p>

[sven_felsby]

<p>Wow. I did not realise that people were that motivated by sheer greed and fear.</p>