steve_kirby1 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 <p>The more I look at the ratings system on this site, the more I realize just how <em>absolutely worthless</em> it really is. I don't think anyone will argue the point that it is in essence a popularity contest. There is not a single photographer on this site who cannot improve their photography. No matter how good you ar, there is always someone better than you. Exactly how does a bunch of numbers help us to improve? The simple answer; <em>it doesn't. </em>The only way we improve is by getting meaningful constructive criticism on what is good about our photos and what needs improvement. Again, how does a bunch of numbers do that. My understanding of this site is it is a <em>community.</em> Most of us will never lay eyes on the other, so why wouldn't the more experienced photographers make meaningful critiques of other's photographs? I think it all boils down to laziness, sorry. There are a couple of members here that actually take the time to critique the image, imagine that a critique in the critique section, and often back up their recommendatioins with photos. The rest just fawn over many images that to be honest, are not worthy of the praise they receive.</p><p>As far as I am concerned at least, I would like to see the rating system eliminated. There are some great photos on this site, to be sure, but there are a lot of ones that could stand to have some improvement. How are the people who are newer to photography going to improve if all they get are 3's and 4's? It's BS.</p><p>So here is my challenge to the more experienced photographers who contribute to this site. Start being mentors, instead of 'pat on the back" buddies. If an image is a great one, tell them why it is a great one. If it is a stinker, then tell them that too. The cardinal rule of any critique is not to make it personal. But another cardinal rule is to be constructive and help the people improve with helpful suggestions.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photojen Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 <p>I am newer to photography and have been on a bunch of other photo sites. I have never received more helpful advice and suggestions (positive or negative) then by a good chunk of members of PN. I have learned a great deal by being here, reading and participating...taking advice and using it and having it benefit me. This subject (ratings) is a constant. I take PN for what it is...and what it is to me is a lot...I have never learned more. I have 'mentors' who email me with suggestions all the time~ and I totally respect that. How else am I going to learn. The rating system means nothing to me. I am here to learn! Just my 2 cents from a newbie. We all have frustrations...but use me as an example of a new photographer and a positive PN user benefiting from all it has to offer. Have a good one.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpo3136b Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 <p>Steve, I had a look at your ratings, comments and stats. I noticed: five sevens to the same photographer, out of seven photos rated; that's about a <strong>70% approval concentrated on one person's work</strong>; under a dozen critiques provided; critiques at a rate of near one every two weeks; one photo submitted.</p> <p>You're suggesting the most frequently used feature of the entire website be ignored (cf. Unifed, including photo critique submissions). Maybe you should invest a little more, and a little more broadly. There is a "critique only" option.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 <p>First: what makes you think it is (or mostly is, or even substantially is) "the more experienced photographers" on the site who use the rating system in a way you don't like?<br /><br />Many people have learned <em>not</em> to come right out and say, "That picture of your baby is out of focus, poorly lit, and the sailboat in the background is sliding downhill on that tilted horizon, but is being kept afloat by the giant HDR halo you left around it when you oversaturated that sunset," because the person on the receiving end - sometimes - turns out to be a stalker who will down-rate and snarkily-snipe-at the critic for as long as they both shall be on PN. Anonymous ratings come forth from the fact that many people simply can't handle the information that their image is below average in any way.<br /><br />Think of anonymous ratings exactly like you would the glances that you'd note on people passing by your photographs hung in a large group show. Endless people, strolling by. Some stopping for a longer glance, some raising their eyebrows in surprise at something they like, and some rolling their eyes in world-weary fatigue at seeing yet another sub-par blurry waterfall with a flower and moss in the foreground. But how many passers-by, some of whom might even say hello and say what they think about your work, would be as inclined to - strangers that they are - if you grabbed them by the arm and said, "Now, before you tell me if you like or don't like my image, I need to know who you are - please give me your name and e-mail address."<br /><br />Do you think that perhaps a few people would be less inclined to tell you, then, that your image is uninspiring, or no more inspiring than an average piece of work?<br /><br />You don't have to submit for ratings, you know. You can submit for just critiques. And you can also (gasp!) actually drop a note to someone you respect and ask them their opinion about something. You might be surprised how that works out, if that person doesn't get the impression that you're going to get bent out of shape if they simply say, "Sorry, that image isn't my cup of tea."</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobcossar Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I hardly ever offer a critique because I always assume that the poster of the images sees a meaning in it that I, likely, will not. An averagely decent portrait of a woman will have a very different meaning to the ladies husband than it will to me. I am a very experienced photographer, but I shoot in a way that I can see in the final image, the mood and feeling I experienced towards the subject and context at the time. So if someone else doesn't see what I saw, or doesn't feel what I felt, then his critique is likely to be irrelevant to me. If a person goes to the trouble of creating...processing.... everything...to get a great shot.....then what's the benefit to him/her of my crit? Especially if I am unknown to the poster. I always look at a piece of work and assume that I am seeing exactly the image the poster intended me to see....So what does he/she gain if I might be critical of the very things which the artist intended to look exactly as they do? Judging in a juryied show is entirely different. The judge is judging for the Gallery....not to impart knowledge to the artist....indeed such shows are generally set up in such a way the the author of the work NEVER gets to hear WHY it was accepted....or why not either..... Not sure if I'm addressing the point you were making....but I really don't think that the poster CAN benefit much from a critiquer whose expertise, and taste, is unknown to him.....It might be that some other dimension needs to be added to qualify the judges....But I realize that would be a nightmare for the forum to manage....thanks....Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photojen Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 <p>I don't feel like I am a strong enough photog to make critiques...maybe there are others who feel the same.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lex_jenkins Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 <p>Steve, were you anticipating some different explanations or responses than you received in <a href="00V0xk">this recent discussion</a> on the same issue?</p> <p>Before reaching any conclusions you should try rating a few thousand photos and critiquing a few hundred, following your own standards. Use the attributed rating system if you prefer it to the anonymous ratings system. Or try both and, later, via the data on your "My Workspace" page, evaluate the data to see whether you rate consistently both when your name is on the line and when it isn't.</p> <p>But at this point you haven't been active enough or on photo.net long enough to have given yourself an opportunity to reach any accurate conclusions about how things work.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrraz Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 <p>Jennifer, You have to start somewhere. Talk about what you like or dislike about an image. You don't have to offer suggestions at first if you ask what motivated the photographer to do something in a particular way. Try modifying a copy in PS. If you come up with what you feel might be an improvement, offer the change. Every once in a awhile you get an "whoa, I never thought of that."</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshroot Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <blockquote> <p>I don't feel like I am a strong enough photog to make critiques</p> </blockquote> <p>Neither are the art directors, magazine editors, fine art buyers, and brides who control the vast majority of money paid for photography in the world. But any professional photographer who ignores their "uneducated" critique is destined to fail as a pro.</p> <p>Glenn has good advice for anyone who thinks their opinion doesn't matter because they aren't "good enough" to talk about someone else's images.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonjb Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <p>Jennifer I see your work all the time in the NW forum. Your photos are a treat and I am certain you would have plenty of insightful and constructive advice to offer. Nothing wrong with being humble but don't sell yourself short.<br> When I offer my opinions I do not purport to be an advanced photographer or an art scholar, just a guy who likes or dislikes this or that about a given photo. When I receive critique I am open to suggestions for improvement but I also just like to know how the image strikes people, anybody can offer that type of feedback and I think a lot of people are grateful to know if others think the photo succeeds or not and why, without needing an elaborate critique or suggestions for technical fixes.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huperetes Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <p>I rather have someone shred my work with every possible comments, both negative and if there are any positive ones.<br> It is of little use to me when someone score them without comments.<br> I am a big boy and can handle critique. I also know to look at a comment, take it, validate it, then either acknowledge it and try to better myself or discard it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonmestrom Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <blockquote> <p>But any professional photographer who ignores their "uneducated" critique is destined to fail as a pro.</p> </blockquote> <p>Absolutely! But the bottom line in regard to the OP's statement is that there are photographers on this site and those that claim to be who delude themselves by shoving meaningless points to eachother. Still, if it makes them happy why not?<br> Having said that I wouldn't mind if it was to be dropped but I've long since come to understand that this will never happen.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_daniel1 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <p>Gordon beat me to it. Jennifer, nice stuff. And that's about the extent of my critique or rating of your work.</p> <p>Josh, I'm really glad you mentioned the editors and others who pull the purse strings of photo spending. For years I was an editor with a full-time photojournalist on my staff. It took only about five years for us to see eye-to-eye on what a front-page photo should look like. He was an RIT grad infinitely more qualified than I as a shooter. I pissed him off about every two weeks or so with my selections of his work. But we're still friends.</p> <p>Will</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tholte Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <p>Steve, you have only been on PN for two months and you only have one photo posted. What am I missing? The rules say you have to be a member for at least one year before you start comlaining. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonjb Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <p>Tim;</p> <p>I'm glad I didn't notice that rule when I first arrived. I'd never have made it though that first year.<br> By this point in time I believe I've finally run out of new things to complain about and grown weary of complaining about all the same old things.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamos Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <p>The rules say after two years in PN don't care about this game.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <p>and after three...you don't remember your name.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_ Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <p>"...get are 3's and 4's?" It's just like Christmas....some of the time the same image gets a 3 and then a 7. No one person is going to be happy or pi**ed off all the time. Try not to take the rating system seriously: just go out and continue shooting with your camera.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmm Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 <p>I just read this thread and also the recent one which Lex linked.</p> <p>Whenever I read these ratings rants I have no idea how people interpret 3s and 4s as low scores. Remember it is a 7 point rating system so you would expect that the vast majority of your scores would be around the middle.... unless you are either genuinely a genius photographer, or are not but are severely presumptuous and deluded.</p> <p>The important question for me is not why so many 3s and 4s. Its more why so many 7s. And also why so few 1s and 2s.</p> <p>And my final point is on the seriousness of the ratings. They are only indicative. And they are usually done fast. Are they really meaningful in a detailed sense? No. But can they give you a very crude gut feel about whether a bunch of people like or dislike your work (and over time whether you seem to be trending up or down)? Possibly. So lets not go dismissing totally something that is not perfect but is interesting. And lets also not get sucked in to the ego-driven back-scratching nonsense that some do on this site with reciprocal high ratings which is just a farce.</p> <p>Put your image out there, and see what happens. Its the best any of us can do.</p> <p>Cheers</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 <p>I agree...but I disagree B M. I agree that for the "average" photographer...(whatever that is)...there would/should be a majority of that photographers submissions that would get average ratings. But there is a large gap between "average" ...and "genius". I would expect that there are many photographers that fall in between the two, and those photographers can expect a share of 5/6/7 scores along the way. My understanding is that the ratings are supposed to be based on how the photograph compares to rest of the photos sumitted on PN. So ...average is (obviously) a relative term. If you compare my photographs to that of Edward Weston...I'm far...far below average. If you compare my my photographs to the whole of PN submissions...I'm still below average, but perhaps not as far below ;) <br> <strong>"The important question for me is not why so many 3s and 4s. Its more why so many 7s. And also why so few 1s and 2s".</strong><br> No doubt there is a lot of "back-scratching nonsense" that accounts for a sizeable portion of the 6/7s that are given out. But...I think another, rather obvious reason is that people simply like to look at good/great photos...and most enjoy letting the photographer know they they enjoy their work. Certainly nothing wrong with that! So, if a member has 5 ratings of 7 ...for every one rating of 3, it's not indicative that they feel that 80% of the photographs on site are a work of genius, most likely they just find it difficult to look through as many average/below average photographs.<br> <strong>"And my final point is on the seriousness of the ratings. They are only indicative. And they are usually done fast. Are they really meaningful in a detailed sense? No. But can they give you a very crude gut feel about whether a bunch of people like or dislike your work (and over time whether you seem to be trending up or down)? Possibly. </strong><strong></strong><br> Couldn't agree more. The ratings I've received have served me quite well in helping determine which of my photographs will sell. A crude indicator...yes, infallible no, but they're helpful. <br> <strong>"So lets not go dismissing totally something that is not perfect but is interesting".</strong></p> <p>Amen. Almost without fail...any time the ratings system is discussed we get an earful of how useless ratings are, cries of recipricol/mate rating, derrogatory comments about people with fragile egos who look to ratings as a means of self-validation...and any other number of comments one can think of ...many purposely intended to belittle any and all who place any importance on ratings. It gets old.<br> I could write a book on what I think is wrong with the present system...but I'll spare everyone the grief and just make one observation in lieu of my annual rant. I was away from the site for a year, and now that I'm back I find that the number of obviously unjustified low ratings has drastically increased. I know all to well that critiquing/rating photographs is a very personal, subjective endeavor...but still, I've seen some of the finest photographs that I've ever had the privilege of viewing right here on this site receive far too many 3-4 ratings. Photographs that have high marks from several other very skilled photographers...and then the smathering of low marks...always from anonymous raters. Many members get angry when they feel their photographs have been unduly rated low. When it's me...sure I get a bit perturbed. But what really pisses me is when those who can be counted among the best photographers on site get hit with 3-4 ratings that I (or I believe, the vast numbers of the membership) would find it difficult to find even an inkling of justification for. I know that the concept of anonymous ratings is to allow members to rate without fear of unfairly receiving low ratings as a means of retaliation...but I feel that far more of the low ratings being handed out anonymously are based on spite and jealousy...and nothing more. Anonymity...a feature/option that was intended to protect people from unfairness...has ironically become the worst enemy of fairness when it comes to ratings. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurent_jaussi Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 For me the rating system works perfectly for a general purpose site that allow me to display my images for 25 $ a year...I don't expect that highly qualified photographer will judge and review all the images I want to upload for such a small amount of money...people use the sytem as they want with their own personal way (including being harsh or backscraping or reasonably positive and critique)...great artist sould also not request average amateurs to judge their work with more qualification that amateurs have.... Truth is I am not so comfortable with rating but I don't see how different it could be on a general purpose site like photo.net...as always the problem is how people use it, not the system... That being said...I really don't understand what people expect for free or 25 $ a year.,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 <p>With all respect Laurent, I don't think many of us are expecting "highly qualified" photographers and/or critics to rate our photographs on this site...we just hope that those who rate will be honest and as fair as possible. Notice I said..."hope"...not expect. Honesty and fairness cost nothing, but can't be assured, even if we paid a fortune to receive that treatment.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurent_jaussi Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 John I agree with you 100%....but what can we do....do you expect a torough investigation for each non deserved 3/3 that a good image receive or each time an average image gets a 6/6 or 7/7 as a trading exchange for a previously received 6/6 by a so-called collegue....some problems have no solutions and the earth is still rotating.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonmestrom Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 <p>John, there is a lot of merit in what you say. However it's not the rating system as such that is flawed but many of its users are, at the cost of those that go out of their way to do it as honest as possible. Make no mistake, I am very critical of any rating system because be definition it pretends a whole lot more than it can deliver. Still, on this site it's one of the best ways to get exposure. When I started out here last year it only took me a short time to discover how a lot of people like to use it, hand out a pair of high ratings and you'll get a pair in return.Don't comply and a lot of people will neglect your work. Good riddance I like to think myself.<br /> Personally I have never been bothered by low ratings, anonymous of otherwise. Some may have been justified, others less so but the bottom line is they never tell me that much. That's why I got out. I don't give them and I don't ask for them and in the end I took this to its logical conclusion and removed all photos that ever received ratings which of course was unfair on those that gave them in good faith but for me (and it's a highly personal choice that only reflects on myself) it would have felt a bit hypocritical to criticise while still keeping up ratings of my own work.</p> <p>So it may be that I get a bit less exposure now than when I would have stayed in (although I have no reason whatsoever to complain, quite the contrary in fact) but to be honest this way feels a lot better to me because most of the people who regularly visit my work I know well enough to know they give me an honest assesment. I try to do likewise. On occasion I've been rather harsh, to be honest sometimes to much so. Some have torn at some of my results. Either way it often has led to some valuable discussions most on this site, others continued by e-mail. Sometimes in high spirits but without exception I have valued them all because they were always given with honesty and integrity. Some people here are quite capable of that. In the end the most important is not if an agreement is reached. That's where the real value of this site lies. Exchange about ideas, approaches, styles and what not. To give you an example quite recently I got into a discussion with a very good photographer on this site and somewhere along the line he pointed out to me that I should have asked rather than provide an opinion based on my own assesment. In this particular case he was absolutely right and maybe it's something all of us should do more (I know you did on occassion). So I got some good advice from that and something to think over. In other cases that may have been the other way around. All of that I think is infinitely more valuable than some meaningless ratings.</p> <p>A lot of people, and I have to admit I have become one of them, for the most part neglect the critique forum but that also means that a lot of people, certainly those that start out here, have a very difficult time in getting exposure so what you are left with is either entering the rating system or invest a lot of time in visiting other peoples work and leaving a comment. The latter one is quite demanding if you have a full-time job.</p> <p>Still, as I understand it splitting up the ratings from the critiques is being considered or maybe even under construction by now so that might help.</p> <p>As far as anonymous ratings are concerned they most certainly have never bothered me. If you exhibit your work you get a lot of feedback from people you don't know. And even here you get a lot of comments/critiques from people you don't know and aren't likely to meet. Anonymous is not suspect by definition. In some cases it could well be the most honest.</p> <p>Lastly, as far as I'm concerned it's not all that important nor should we make it out to be. More than anything else this is supposed to be fun. Like I said before, if it makes people happy why not?</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonjb Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 <p>I stopped asking for ratings on the site quite some time ago. Not for any deep philosophical reason only for the simple reason that since I do not give ratings it seemed lopsided to ask for them. I eventually stopped using the critique forum entirely. The result has been that the views for my uploads have decreased significantly along with the number of comments, while at the same time my enjoyment of the site has gone up considerably. I spend less time here but the time is better spent. The people who previously dropped by my pages on fishing expeditions for ratings have stopped leaving those bizarre sentence fragments that always include some generic reference to photographic terms such as focus, tone, dof, colour, composition etc. without ever committing to a stance on my use of any of these things as if merely mentioning theses term in a sentence with the word excellent tossed in would get me over to drop a few reciprocal 6/6s on their pages. " Nice dof , tone and colour my friend 6/6 " is not something I can do much with. Not having to come up with equally vacuous responses to those fishing expeditions out of a sense of politeness is a huge time saver. What has not changes is the exchange of opinions between myself and other member who genuinely have something to say and who are in turn receptive to honest feedback. That aspect of the PN experience has been unaffected by dropping out of the rating game.</p> <p>I always figure each to their own. For my purposes opting out of the critique forum has improved my PN experience. I miss having the opportunity to meet new people and have greater exposure for my work and consequently greater idea exchange but I don't miss it enough to wade through the critique forum as it currently stands. I still toss an occasional image out there to see if anything has changed, I think the last time was April.</p> <p>I used to regularly visit the Critique forum and leave critiques on stuff that caught my eye or offer suggestions for issues that I thought I could be helpful with. I should give that a try again. I kind of lost interest when I figured out that only a small minority of the people uploading to the forum had any interest in receiving or giving critique.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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