estimate refused, any price over "free" too expensive today?

[timaverre.com]

<p>Alright so I quoted a price and aparently it was too high. The response email I got was "That is way higher then we were thinking, we found some other pictures for much less thanks anyway." Now here is my question. A corporation contacts a photographer and says, we are interested in owning exclusive rights to several images you have on your site. We would like to use the images indefinitely and for a multitude of marketing applications such as Facebook, Website, Blog, potential brochures...etc They would like high resolution versions of the images they are interested in. I am just getting started in the business of Photography and I am aware that photoquote is suposed to be a great resource in developing estimates for jobs however I am just getting started and have not purchased it yet. In the past 24 hours I have been contacted or in communication with clients about three different photography jobs. Two of the three have been extreemely unhappy with what I have quoted, one flat out passed. On the one hand, I see that my price for these clients was too high and if I wanted them I should have quoted a lower price, on the other hand I feel I am quoting an amount that is worth my time, vision, abilities and unique eye. </p>

<p> I'm reading several business of Photography books at the moment: "Fast track photographer", "Best Business Practices", "VisionMongers" and Selling and promoting your photography"...etc. They all say, don't under charge, don't be the cheapest, don't under bid other photographers, you are not a commodity you are a brand, a unique style and vision. So how do you develop a fee and or price for licensing images when most entities expect free or close to it anything reasonable to me is unreasonable or down right offensive to them? I realize that when I say "most" I'm talking about my recent 2 out of 3. There was another publication half a year ago that contacted me to use one of my images and when I asked about monetary compensation they said they didn't even have a budget for photography but that I would get a photo credit. This seemed unpleasant but acceptable to me as I had not previously been published. Now I feel like I had been had as a photo credit in this magazine has yet to bring me business. Is this the product of being new, my first few jobs/bids, the clients I am working with or is this a universal experience for Photographers these days. I don't even see how to make money let alone a living off your photography if this is a common experience for experienced photographers. </p>

<p>I would greatly appreciate any contribution made to this topic.</p>

[my-portfolio]

<p>How are you trying to pull in business and how are you setting expectations for pricing? I feel like that could be a reason, you're getting people looking for pictures on the cheap but they're finding someone who doesn't undervalue what they do.</p>

[bobcossar]

<p>Hi Tim....says that you have been here for nearly 2 years.</p>

<p> So, why have you no photographs posted? You say you are just getting into the business of Photography.....but what do you mean by that exactly? Commercial photography is virtually impossible to get a good toehold on unless, you are experienced in that field, you have superb images to show, and that you also have a superb reputation of professionalism....getting the job done, on budget, on time, and to the client's complete satisfaction....</p>

<p>Maybe tell us a bit more concerning these issues and show us some of your commercial work typical of your output, and we can maybe help you more. And have some answers to Ryan's questions above...Regards, Robert</p>

 

[rod_melotte]

<p>If you are truly new to the business of photography charge what you feel you are comfortable with and don't listen to books, software and so forth. I really have issues with the " don't under bid other photographers". Well, what are other photographers charging for the exact work. You don't know so how can you undercharge.<br>

.<br>

I'm new to the business also but have gotten a few jobs and am selling "wall art" along with corporate head shots (boring). Charge what YOU feel good at. Then next time charge more if you think it was not enough. The more practice you get the more you can charge and the more confident you will become. The business of photography is an art form in itself and there are no set rules on prices, only vague numbers what other experienced photographers have charged. <br>

.<br>

BTW - I was "had" also with the very first up close Johnny Depp photos on location for Public Enemies (his trailer was 20 feet from my house, they actually ran a hose to my house for water LOL)). Largest shiny Japanese movie magazine contacted me and offered $25. I sold 5 for like $100. I learned. <br>

.<br>

So - to answer your question. DON'T sell yourself cheap but get the job and get experience and get the confidence. If it was easy everyone would be making money. The photograph is the easy part.</p>

[colin_mattson1]

<blockquote>

<p>Well, what are other photographers charging for the exact work. <em>You don't know</em> so how can you undercharge.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sure you do—call and ask them. They've got telephones. And e-mail. And most of them would be more than happy to tell you what they'd charge for a job so nobody's getting screwed.</p>

[kevin_delson]

 

<blockquote>

<p>I don't even see how to make money let alone a living off your photography if this is a common experience for experienced photographers.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>This is not a common experience for (paid) photographers.</p>

<p>Tim,</p>

<p>There are a few good reasons why photography is a great choice to make a living; there are hundreds of reasons to avoid it. ;)</p>

<p>There are a few <em>truisms </em>in the business of photography:</p>

<p>1) Experienced photographers don't wait for business to come to them..they go get it!<br>

2) Most people who make their living at this operate well below the radar as far as lime light is concerned.<br>

3) Experienced <em>business</em> people do far better in photography than experienced photographers.<br>

4) Those of us who make a living from photography learned to say <strong>"NO"</strong> a long time ago.<br>

5) "" "" "" "..work our butts off keeping clients and finding new ones.<br>

6) Being successful in this art requires <em>selective</em> hearing. (i.e) don't listen to whiners and people who tell you it can't be done.<br>

7) 80/20 rule remains true if you want to make a living. 80% of my time is devoted to business, 20% is trigger time.</p>

<p>This was just the short list.</p>

<p>Tim,<br>

My intent is not to dissuade you from making some money in photography, but without some clearly defined goals, your question is almost impossible to answer. Do you want simply a little additional income?..That's easy. Do you want to move towards making a living eventually? Get ready for some hard work and long hours.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>but that I would get a photo credit</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Nothing wrong with this as long as you maintain control of your work and limit the client's "use."<br>

The publications now serve as "tearsheets" for your future submissions.<br>

Following wedding shoots years ago, this is exactly how I pursued my career as I moved away from weddings and into commercial pubs.<br>

The people I contacted had no idea how much I was paid when I contacted them with my resume', bio and tearsheets..all they saw was "Hey, this guy has done a lot of work." At the time I had about 30-35 tearsheets; took about 3 years. It also showed the PE's and AD's that I had experience delivering a product within industry standards.</p>

<p>One of the biggest mistakes I see with photogs starting out in the commercial pub market is setting their sights way to high.<br>

We look at a few of the "biggies" we all hear and read about, and then expect similar results.<br>

..or, we blast away with submission after submission to the publications with the highest circulations in the hopes of hitting paydirt.<br>

This is <strong>NOT</strong> the way to do it unless one has a lottery mentality.</p>

<p>As I watch the PGA tour on television, I see a extreme minority of people making the big dollars. There are literally hundreds of golf pros you will never hear from or read about who make a living from golf.</p>

<p>Tim,</p>

<p>Define your goals, both in money you desire to earn and the type of photography you want to do for a particular market segment.<br>

As one poster mentioned, commercial photography is <strong>VERY</strong> difficult to break into unless you already know someone deeply entrenched in the industry. Not impossible though with time, patience, focus and a passion to succeed.</p>

<p>Publishers seeing your work here or there is ok if you plan on running your own stock business from a website; some do this; a few are actually successful at it. If this is the route you choose, read up on licensing and copyright law.</p>

<p>Pricing? Without knowing <strong>WHO</strong> is asking, I can't even give you a guideline.<br>

I may get $400 for a submission to X magazine for inside cover. You may get $25. Why? I've had work published with them, you have not.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.danheller.com">HERE</a> is a good website to read quite a bit about the<em> business</em> of photography.</p>

[greg_peterson3]

<p>By itself, a photo credit will <strong>never</strong> bring you business. You bring the tear sheet from the magazine, as part of your portfolio, to potential clients. ("Potential clients" being defined as people who buy the kind of pictures that you shoot.)</p>

<p>To get work as a photographer a truly professional level of photographic skill and equipment is assumed. Beyond that, your portfolio, mailers, web site, and direct contacts are what gets you assignments. If you have some published work to show, all the better. And if you have some skill or insight peculiar to the market you're pursuing, that'll help too. For example, I'm a pilot, which gives me an edge in approaching people in the aviation field.</p>

<p>Most of the successful photographers I know (successful = actually making a living) spend most of their time on marketing their services: polishing their portfolio, sending out mailers, updating their web site and making follow-up calls to the people for whom they want to work.</p>

<p>As to pricing, I always just ask about the budget. If it's less than enough to pay for my time and materials I say "thanks" and leave.</p>

<p>Photography has taken me all over the world and paid for my airplane. But there were times when I lived on peanut butter sandwiches and slept in my studio. So I'd only recommend it as a career if you truly love making images.</p>

[pbalko]

<blockquote>

<p>I feel I am quoting an amount that is worth my time, vision, abilities and unique eye.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For the time being, your vision and unique eye should feed themselves. Charge for your time and abilities, at least until you get established.</p>

[mark_davidson1]

<p>+10 on Kevin's post.</p>

<p>I would add that altogether too many people feel that "success" is achieved in a very short time frame.<br>

 

<p>The low end guys will always be there as will there whiny demanding and unappreciative clients. Do not make the mistake of thinking that their clients are yours or that they can be domesticated. They will eventually get together and make each other miserable. Meanwhile you have time to hone your skills and let people know who you are and what you do.</p>

 

<br>

Photography is a trust business like law, medicine, plumbing and auto repair. When you are just starting, the clients you get are all looking for a photographer. The reasons vary but include never having hired a photographer, thought others are too expensive, new to the community or got turned down by other established photographers.<br>

What happens over time is that you will begin to amass a stable of clients that will hire you because of the reliable excellence you can deliver. Eventually you will find that referral business will be your greatest source of new GOOD clients.</p>

<p>IT ALL TAKES TIME. REAL TIME. No shortcuts. Depending on your circumstances it can take anywhere fromtwo to seven years of HARD work before you end up with an income that is decent.</p>

<p>The impatient or faint of heart will go back to their day jobs.</p>

 

[timaverre.com]

<p>I would just like to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread. Your comments have meant a lot to me and I am digesting all of the excellent information held within them. In summary, it seems that developing a photography business is a slow going process. <br>

Will take patience, and a voracious apetite for work, especially in the way of business and marketing. Starting out, I guess it makes sense that clients would be flaky and or looking for cheap and free. Why else would they be contacting a photographer they don't know? I don't currently have a recognizable "brand" or reputation yet so most people contacting me are probably as Mark was saying, new to hiring a photographer or scared off by other photographer's prices.</p>

<p>Again, thank you all for your posts and suggestions. If anyone has any titles of books they could recomend or links that have been particularly inspirational and educational in the ways of pricing in specific or business of photography in general, I would be grateful if you would post a link or the title here.</p>

<p>Thank you,</p>

<p>tim</p>

[rod_melotte]

<p>Tim - I can not remember what market you are working towards and I'm lazy to go read the OP again (need more coffee) but I have found that a LOT of businesses would LOVE to have a photographer thay can count on but with so many out there how do you choose. So, they don't. <br>

'<br>

I do a lot of gifting, when I see a business/building that on that day at that time would make a great photo. I take it, make 8x12 and as a gift send it to the owner or who is ever in charge. I don't blather them with business talk as I do not want to advertise, I DO give them a business card which is also a work of art. So now that have two works and no pressure from an obvious advertiser. Now a month or two later they think, hmmmmmm I could use a photographer and your in. <br>

.<br>

I also do art fairs as my main focus is on fine art but I love the free lance aspect. Kevins <em>7 truism are RIGHT ON! <br /> </em></p>

[dan_rosenberg1]

<p>Hi Tim, the sad fact is that 90 percent of people in photography are part time. Almost all photographers are generalists with a specialty. If you can develop your specialty to the maximum, you can fill in with all the generalist stuff everyone else does. If you are lucky, you become so good at your specialty, you no longer need to be a generalist. To succeed in photography, you need to be a great marketer/salesperson first and foremost. The photography skills will come with experience. I know it seems silly but I think we all know people who really aren't that great of photographers but make a living at this because they are very good at marketing. Whereas I've seen a lot of fantastic photographers fail at this because they don't have one lick of business common sense.</p>

[Jim_Dockery_Photos]

<p>Tim,</p>

<p>I'm also a teacher who is looking to make some $ from photography, but I'm planning on keeping my day job until retirement. After reading many such complaints, and seeing how competitive things are in the new digital/internet age I'm glad I don't have to scrabble for a living doing it.</p>

<p>I've also been approached by a number of publishers and web developers who have wanted to use my photos, but thought my quotes were too high. I found Seth Resnick's site and cut his prices in half to set mine, but no go for most publishers who found my stuff on the web and figure they can get it cheap because I'm not a pro. I've been published many times, so I don't need to pad my portfolio any more, so I pass on the link/credit thing.</p>

<p>Like many photographers I like the creative side of it, and suck at the business end, so it will always be a hobby to me, which I accept. Good luck if you decide to take it to the next level.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Most all photographs are NOT shot for money; they are shot for FUN. Thus one has a giant pool of folks who can lowball a job. Instead of Dans number of 90 percent; I think it is more like 99.5 to 99.9 percent. </p>

[jimitoucan]

<p>Negotiations are the name of the game. I have seldom not heard, we don't have a budget for photography. Of course they do. But their job is to get the image for as cheap as they can. Unfortunately, in this business the photographers just starting out don't know that so they give their image for a credit line. Useless! I have been published thousands of times and have never gotten a call because they saw one of my 'published' images. Never!</p>

<p>There will always be some photographer that will provide images cheaper. You have to know how and when to negotiate. When to hold em and when to fold em. I had a client tell me they could get an image from another local photographer for 1/5 the price, I said go ahead. A few weeks later they called back in a panic. They tried to enlarge the image for a trade show display and it wasn't sharp enough. They bought mine at my price.</p>

<p>These days there are just too many places to get images almost free. So yes, you have a big challenge. If your image is unique, and they are approaching you, there is a reason. They want your image! First thing is to ask, what is your budget? No matter what they say, their lying. There is always room to get a little, maybe a lot, more. Be tackful, explain how expensive it is to operate your offices, how you need to feed the family, what ever works, be nice, tell them you normally charge a lot more but for you...</p>

<p>It will take some time to get your spiel down, but then you will feel more comfortable negotiating and will start to see some money flowing your way. Probably not enough, though. </p>

[timaverre.com]

<p>I just want to thank everyone for all the excellent posts to this thread. I have just recently been contacted to see if I would be willing to photograph an event for a non profit organization. The goal of the group is to collect contributions from companies and then create scholarships for the students participating in it. I did it last year for free. The event was almost 4 hours long and editing and other post issues took time as well. This year I declined the offer stating that I could not afford to work for free but please keep me in mind should their financial situation change. After I got their email offerring a non paying job I started thinking about the nice venue, the tables and chairs, centerpieces, nice food... and I thought, did everyone else donate all this stuff. Are the caterors donating their time preparing and serving the food, getting everything set up. Is the venue providing all the services for free as well? I have a good relationship with the event planner so I don't want to seem agressive however the reality is that while most of the other goods and services at this event were likely paid for by the organization it seems only fair that a photographer would also get paid. In the meantime, I stand to loose money taking jobs for free as an oportunity cost. The cost of doing a free job when I could have had a paid job at the same time. Not that my phone is currently off the hook with new jobs but who knows. If I don't get another paying job at the same time, I can use that time for developing my craft, researching and developing my marketing goals and campaign...etc. I think the comment Jim made is true to my experience thus far in that initial projections for every company every client is..."the economy...financial situation is poor...can't afford...etc". Well if they can't afford anything what are they contacting other businesses for services? Should I call the phone company and say, "Hi, I would like a new phone plan but because of the economy I will not be able to pay anything for it". </p>

<p>Thanks again for all the comments. Please let me know if you have any business books or articles that have been helpful for you, or if you have any good advice on starting out and developing business goals.</p>

<p>Tim</p>

[jimitoucan]

<p>Tim, You may have made the right move. However, it is good to see if there is another opportunity beside cash that may be available. My favorite saying is "Opportunity is not as rare as the ability to recognize it."<br>

Some non-profits do get all the food, venue, etc. for free or at a reduced rate. A little volunteerism goes a long way.</p>

<p> Before you say no to the next one, think about how it may help you in the future. Can you get other business by being there? Do they have something you need or can use for your business? Will they advertise for you for free with the rest of their promotions? Maybe a big display ad? Also, sometimes it is okay to just do it for the cause. People will remember you for contributing to the scholarships, if you let them know who you are. Don't do it if you are going to regret being there. But if you are happy and upbeat that you are helping make a difference in some unfortunates education, well, people respond to that and you get better known in your community. Sometime down the road you will be justly rewarded.<br>

You have to weigh all the options. Not every non-profit is worthy<br>

It's the commercial for profits I was referring to in my last answer. Hope this helps. There is a lot to learn and you will make mistakes as you go. You'll learn what works, what doesn't, and who and when to donate some time.<br>

Good luck.<br>

Jim</p>

<p>. </p>