Leica IIIf questions

[nomad_.]

<p>I just got a 1954 Leica IIIf RD ST. It's my first Leica, and I've never been near one before. I have some questions, and would appreciate comments from those that have experience of them...</p>

<p>The film advance knob feels quite loose when there's no film in the camera, more so when the base is removed. By loose, I mean that it can tilt a little on it's axis. There is a very small amount of vertical play, but the main thing that strikes me as odd is the tilt. It seems that the base has a pin that engages with the end of the shaft that the spool goes onto, and this reduces the tilt markedly. It still feels a bit looser than I kinda expected.</p>

<p>Second is the sound of the shutter. Before I bought the camera, I managed to find a recording somewhere on the net of a Leica LTM body's shutter being operated. It was a sort of dullish thunk. In comparison, mine sounds more high-pitched - more like a mechanical whine.</p>

<p>Are these normal, or is something amiss?</p>

<p>Something that could well be amiss is some scratching of the film that came to light after the first roll. On the prints, there are light blue horizontal lines, and these appear near the end of the roll. They are not on all of the shots near the end, and they vary in width. The heaviest scratches are all at the same height, with some much fainter ones at other heights. I inspected the negs, and they are definitely scratches - the back of the film surface has what looks like removal of a coating (anti-halation?). They are also visible as dark brown lines when looking through the negs.</p>

<p>While I was shooting that first roll of film, something odd happened at what I thought was the last shot - I felt a little resistance as I wound on, which made me think that I had reached the end of the roll. I turned it a little harder to be sure that the film had run out and the advance knob turned the last little bit to advance the frame. I didn't turn it hard enough to rip through the sprocket holes. When the negs were processed, I found three unexposed blanks after what I thought was the last shot. I also found that the sprocket holes are intact, and the images are centred fine between the rows of sprocket holes.</p>

<p>Loading the film into the camera seemed to go fine - I trimmed the leader and made sure two sprocket holes were visible at the cartridge. It all went in nicely, and advanced to the first frame without issue - the shutter speed dial, shutter button, and rewind knob all rotated as expected. The only thing I can think of is that the film has somehow wound on such that its diameter on the take-up spool was larger than it should be, resulting in the back of the film getting scraped on something in the film chamber.</p>

<p>I'm not sure why this should happen - it's as if the film has moved inside in some way, possibly wrapping around an end of the take-up spool, getting scratched and then falling between the ends. I didn't notice anything odd during the shots that got scratched - only at the last shot, when I thought the roll had ended (I assumed it had after that last shot and rewound it).</p>

<p>Comments appreciated.</p><div></div>

[astral]

<p>Welcome,</p>

<p>The advance knob can feel quite loose and shouldn't be a major concern. I have a couple of cameras that are a little sloppier than others.<br /> However, the shutter whine or wheeze indicates that the camera needs a CLA (clean, lubricate, adjust). It's usually most noticeable on the slower speeds which may be <em>noticeably </em> slow, or at worst the shutter may hang open momentarily or for longer. The only solution is a good CLA: "excercising" the shutter won't really help. (My Barnack cameras just make a quiet "chick" at speeds above 1/20th and "ssssshick" below).<br /> Any problems with film tension (etc) while winding on would normally be covered in a CLA: the wind-on should be precise, smooth and positive. Real stiffness suggests that there's quite a build-up of crud (including dried-up grease) in some critical places, including the shutter cocking mechanism.</p>

<p>The scratches issue does sound odd, almost as though the film was much too long, or the take-up spool is too large (in diameter). Some Russian take-up spools don't fit Leicas very well, but <em>shouldn't</em> cause major problems. I'll have to leave this issue to others, since I've never experienced such a problem.</p>

<p>One thought, reading back, is that the scratches <em>could be</em> so-called "cinch marks" caused by overtightening the film during wind-on, presumably connected to the general wind-on problem . . . . hmmm!</p>

<p> </p>

[sonny_chastant]

<p>Nomad....First, learning with a 111F is not the usually the easiest of ways to jump into the world of Leica. All the screw mount Leicas are more difficult to master than the, say, M series.<br>

I think that you may want to have your camera looked at by a good Leica repair man. Not to belabor your comments they all seem to point to a good CLA or a specific problem approach as you described. It is hard to address your comments without having the camera in hand. Otherwise, you see to have loaded the camera and used the functions in a proper manner. There are many good sites on the web that talk about loading and shooting with a screwmount camera...take a look at them.<br>

Good LUCK! Sonny in Louisiana</p>

[paul_neuthaler]

<p>Send it to Don Goldberg (DAG); he'll make it sing!</p>

[warren_williams]

<p>I just sent mine to Youxin Ye - a basic CLA ( no replacement of anything) under two weeks total including priority mail time and under $100 including return posrtage.</p>

[GlennS]

<p>Just a thought..... With no film in the camera and the lens off, set the shutter speed to B and open the shutter so you can examine the pressure plate. I've occasionally found small bits of film that have broken off poorly trimmed rolls, these can cause jams.</p>

<p> </p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>Nomad, you've described classic back pressure symptoms. --- <strong>Rewind shaft stiff from congealed lubricant !</strong> You can just provide a small amount of solvent then lube to that rewind area, but that only 'band-aids' the transport issue. A complete service is still in order.</p>

<p>Since Warren W. brought it up: Coming from experience, Youxin Ye is cheap but not a TLC type of repair tech. <em>Sorry to burst everybody's bubble</em>, but the last two Leica's that I sent to him for curtain replacement (because he was cheap), were sent months apart, and <strong>both had to be sent back to him due to poor work</strong>. These LTM's aren't complex, so there really isn't any excuse for having back to back re-work repairs. The first camera redo for Mr. Ye was a badly adjusted and out of spec shutter, (I have a 3 sensor shutter tester) and the second camera redo was for blank exposures caused by the sync insulator not being tacked down !</p>

<p>I do my own curtain replacements now. (of course with full CLA & factory spec shutter adjusting done on that tester)<br />His curtain replacements are cheap because he doesn't replace the full curtain set, he just cuts out the old material and glues it to the old ribbons and rail. This way he avoids a full body tear down. Unfortunately, this quick in then out technique doesn't allow preventive measures to be taken for age issues. As for the poor speed accuracy, (he never got the two right) I don't know, maybe he has a simple one sensor tester. (No balance indications) Sorry, but it had to be said...</p>

[john_boyle3]

<p>Give Gerry Smith at Kindermann Canada a call. He does excellent work and has had a lot of experience with the older Leicas. You won't be disappointed. He performed CLAs on two Ms and three lenses for me. Both cameras and lenses came back in pristine condition.</p>

<p> </p>

[andrew_clark1]

<p>Hi,<br /> I just got my Leica IIIc and 50mm Summitar back from Youxin Ye. I recommend him. He's much more affordable than other technicians. The camera is very smooth in every regard. He put in a new beam splitter for the rangefinder, lubricated the inside, adjusted the speeds, and tightened the advance knob. I didn't need a new shutter curtain. He also adjusted the aperture on the lens.<br>

I have also never trimmed the film. Take your time and push the film into place with the shutter open.</p>

[m._howard_edwards]

<p>I am also a Youxin Ye fan. My shutter curtain replacement and CLA was fast and satisfactory. This included email exchanges regarding the extent of repairs needed. Leica IIIc and Summitar 50mm. Go for it!</p>

[paul_wheatland]

<p>I and a friend have had several Leicas, both LTM and M models CLA'd by Youxin YE and have nothing but praise for the work done and the reasonable cost of same. He even checked my IIIc for accuracy at high speeds after I was unable to check it with the old business card test for "tapering". On another occasion, he admitted a full CLA was not possible because of corrosion and charged me accordingly. The camera is a 1933 Leica III in black and actually works well even though a full CLA was not possible! Also he declines to work on lenses. His honesty is refreshing. The comment made by the earlier poster in this thread is the first negative one I've seen for Youxin Ye.</p>

[nomad_.]

<p>Thanks for all the responses. Firstly, I'm in the UK, so would prefer to have it serviced by someone here - anyone knoe if JP Cameras in Edinburgh are good with Leicas? (He fixed a Minolta SLR for me years ago, and it was fine.)</p>

<p>Regarding the shutter, it seems responsive enough, and the exposures from my first roll of film seem okay - so far, there doesn't seem to be an obvious issue with the timing. It just sounds louder and more high-pitched than I expected. I went looking for more audio recordings of Barnack Leica shutters, and they do sound quieter than mine. Maybe there's a lack of lubrication somewhere.</p>

<p>Film wind-on feels fine - I can do the 'single finger drag' to wind on, and rewind feels good as well. The resistance I felt was only at what I thought was the last frame, at the last bit of wind - last sprocket hole or two - and it was only slight. What are the cinch marks you're referring to, Alan?</p>

<p>Sonny, so far, using the camera has been a breeze. I find that I tend to set an aperture and adjust the shutter speed by feel. I have to say, it's great to be using a manual mechanical camera after years of digital compacts. I've hardly used my Weston Master, apart from a couple of readings to get an idea of where the light is at.</p>

<p>Gus, as I say, the rewind feels okay, but I'll check it out more closely when the second roll is finished. I believe this assembly isn't too hard to remove, so I may take it apart and clean/lube it if it feels wrong.</p>

<p>I'll finish the second roll tomorrow and get it processed. I'll pay careful attention to how things feel as I get close to the end of the roll.</p>

 

[Troll]

<p>My first Leica in 1954 was a IIIf RDST (pleasant surprise when it arrived, because the ST hadn't been announced at the time I ordered it). When it was stolen several years later I replaced it with an identical mint IIIf RDST which is still my pride and joy. I hope you get yours properly repaired, and can enjoy it for years to come!</p>

[dhbebb]

<p>This camera has probably never been serviced and will last a lifetime if this is done properly now. It will cost about £120 from Newton Ellis & Co of Liverpool (who have serviced approx. 14 Leicas for me). For this kind of money, are you SURE you are competent to dismantle and repair a Leica without wrecking it and turning it into a piece of useless junk?</p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>Nomad, the feel from the top (Knurled rewind knob) isn't the proper test, it's from the other side where the rewind fork is. Put your finger in there and try to spin the fork as the cassette would, and if there's <strong>any</strong> resistance, it's too tight. Try it - then lubricate it, you should see a major difference.</p>

<p>Mr. Clark, Mr. Edwards and Mr. Wheatland;</p>

<p>I'm only reporting from my <em>experience and eyewitness</em>; the perspective of a technician in the same field. Having trained multiple apprentice camera techs over the years, I have to say that <strong>TLC </strong>and<strong> QC</strong> were my main push throughout the training. My requirements are possibly higher than of an average customer, (he who doesn't have the proper gear to check on somebody else's work) but blank exposures? Please... I don't care how fast or cheap he was, there wasn't <strong>any</strong> excuse. (Mr.Ye claimed shipping caused an adjustment change, but upon <strong>my internal inspection</strong> of his work, that proved false...)</p>

 

[nomad_.]

<p>The second roll came back with no scratches, and the film wound to the end without issue. The first shot was duff for some reason - half of the frame was completely bleached out due to being out of the cartridge. I was sure I followed the instructions for loading (wind on, load film, release shutter, wind-release, and wind again). Got 36.5 shots in total. Last strip of negs has almost enough for two more shots - not sure how much I can expect to lose. (Still getting a feel for the mechanicals, and don't wan't to force things - I got most of the way through the wind after the last exposire and got more resistance than the previous roll, so I rewound.)</p>

<p>David, I'm not planning on dismantling the whole camera - was only referring to the rewind mechanism. It's straightforward to dismantle. When the film was done, I tried the knob and it did feel a bit draggy. Took it apart, and found that the shaft was pretty dry. Cleaned shaft, cylinder and washer with IPA, lubed with a touch of teflon grease, and now feels better - will see how the next roll goes.</p>

 

[nomad_.]

<p>Gus, what would you suggest is a suitable lubricant? I used teflon grease, which did introduce some drag - when I tried the parts dry, it rotated freely. The shaft and cylinder were a very close fit - I'd have thought a light oil would be the only thing that would keep drag to near zero, but I wasn't sure about using oil in case it spread to places it shouldn't.</p>

<p>I did the film advance mechanism this evening. It was also rather dry, with some traces of what looked like a pale greenish grease in some of the nooks and crannies. The only bit I couldn't open up was the top bit with the film speed reminder disks - there's dust and crud under the little windows that I wanted to remove (even though I don't use them). Teflon grease again, on the shafts, the teeth of the gears, and the shoulders that face onto other parts. I would say that this now feels a bit smoother and more slick. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to remove the tilting that's evident when the base is off. Maybe there are supposed to be some shims in there, or maybe a sleeve/shaft is worn.</p>

<p>An update on the film scratching... I realised today that my hypothesis is incorrect. The theory was that the cylinder of wound film was bulking up to the extent that it was starting to catch on something inside the camera. However, this can't be the case - it's the back of the film that is scratched, but it's the emulsion side that's exposed on the outside of the cylinder of wound film. I think a further examination of the film is in order...</p>

 

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>After cleaning the exhausted lubricant with some sort of a solvent useing a Qtip, then an <strong>oil</strong> lube is recommended. Just a small amount is necessary to coat the 'rubbing' surfaces. Don't worry, if you just coat with a light amount, the lubricant won't migrate. A synthetic oil such as "Mobil1" 5-30w will do for this area. (It doesn't out gas during hot conditions)</p>

<p>The grease in <strong>reasonable</strong> amounts is definitely recommended. The reminder windows <strong>unit</strong> (Don't attempt to take it fully apart) is best cleaned by allowing them to soak in a small glass jar with "light" solvent. (Ultrasonic cleaning can detach the windows) This will loosen up the grim that worked it's way in over the years. Now use low pressure compressed air to blow & dry it out. Repeat if necessary. Apply liberally some quality auto interior protectant to the disc and window area. That should rejuvenate that portion of the knob.</p>

<p>The shutter sounds will improve as soon as a solvent washing, re-lubrication, balancing of curtains, brake adjust and proper speeds adjustment can be performed.</p>

<p>There isn't any shimming done from down below to align anything. There are some clearance washers though, but nothing that would give a "tilted" look. (Unless something has been reassembled poorly) Fire a photo of this issue and post it...</p>

[nomad_.]

<p>Thanks Gus. I'll track down some 5w30 synthetic oil (might have some Castrol Magnatec in the garage). What would a light solvent be in this case? Some dish washing liquid in water? The film reminder windows seem to mostly have loose particles under them, with some yellowing of the plastic windows - don't see any sticky gunk. For the interior protectant, do you mean stuff like Armor-All? (Silicone-based, I think.)</p>

<p>I don't know yet if I'll tackle the shutter bits myself. I managed to get a IIIf service manual/guide, which seems pretty comprehensive, but doesn't look like a Leitz publication (cover has "Nat Cam Manual 327" at the top). It does go into some depth, including shutter curtain replacment and speed calibration, and explains the operation of the various mechanisms. However, it doesn't include the self timer, but does cover the red dial (it talks about electronic flash at 1/50th). I also noticed that my IIIf doesn't have screws through the edge of the top plate to hold the body shell in place. My body only has the two lower screws on the front - none above, and none on the back. I assume they're under the vulcanite, and I'm not keen on trying to remove that in one piece.</p>

<p>There were no clearance washers in the film advance mech - the bits that came out were the knob itself, set screw and threaded sleeve that the set screw goes into, film reminder assy and spring, thin spring 'washer' to push down the film counter dial, the film counter dial, the eccentric gear to advance the film counter, and the friction shaft assembly to hold the film spool. I'll try and do some pictures later. I took some measurements with a digital caliper - the end of the take-up shaft that engages with the base moves about 1.5mm from one end of the tilt to the other. With a finger on the end of the shaft, and another on top of the film reminder disk, there seems to be very little end float - fiddly to measure, but I get about 0.3 to 0.4mm. I measured from the surface of the top plate to the top edge of the knob, pressing down from the top (12.08-12.11mm) and pushing up against the take-up spool (12.42-12.46mm).</p>

<p> </p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>Solvent would be some thing petroleum based like lighter fluid. Protectant, like a quality silicon vinyl treatment made by a <a href="http://www.meguiarsdirect.com/detail/MEG+G4016"><strong>Meguiar’s</strong></a> type company. (I'm not fond of the 'Armor All' product)<br>

<br>

Don't mess with the self-timer unless it isn't working. There <strong>aren't</strong> any screws under the vulcanite ! The top disassembly is quite logical, but some special grip wrenches are necessary. See the Nat Cam Manual; it should address the use of tools.<br>

<br>

The tilt you described earlier isn't the "play" that you just described. That is in fact normal. </p>

<p>Whenever you're "going to school" on something; go slow, use caution, and above all <strong>be logical</strong>. If it's too difficult, you're probably thinking or doing it the wrong way.</p>

 

[nomad_.]

<p>Ah, would isopropyl alchohol be okay, then? (Got a big squirty tin of that, haven't seen lighter fluid for ages.)<br />The Nat Cam manual shows two screws low down on the front, two high up at the front, passing through the edge of the top plate into the body shell, and another two high up at the back, also passing through the edge of the top plate into the body shell. On my camera, there are only the lower two at the front - there are no screws around the edge of the top plate (and no vacant screw holes, either). If the 'misssing' screws aren't under the vulcanite, then the camera must be assembled differently, and the Nat Cam manual doesn't mention this.</p>

<p>Mine looks like this one...<br /><a href="http://www.wjgibson.ca/LeicIIIf.htm">http://www.wjgibson.ca/LeicIIIf.htm</a></p>

<p>The Nat Cam manual describes dissassembly of one like this...<br /><a href="http://www.pentaxforums.com/gallery/photo-9175.html">http://www.pentaxforums.com/gallery/photo-9175.html</a></p>

<p>Which part of the play is normal? The slackness of the shaft passing through the top plate, resulting in tilt of the shaft when the base is removed? Or the small amount of end float along the axis of the shaft?</p>

<p>Self timer - seems to work okay, apart from the latch 'button' having a hard time catching the lever when it's pulled round. The little button seems to move in and out okay, I find that I have to hold the lever in place while tapping the button with a finger nail to encourage it to pop out. It's as if the button's spring is weak.</p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>If you don't have the top plate screw holes, then you have the more streamlined look. (Leica M3's had earlier versions that had visible screws too.)<br>

Still ; NO SCREWS UNDER THE VULCANITE !<br>

<br>

I can't answer for why Nat Cam didn't mention the newer style. <br>

The play below in the take-up area sounds normal. The trans knob may be bent but a picture would be helpful. <br>

<br>

The self timer 'latch button' needs a little bit of lube.</p>

 

[nomad_.]

<p>Okay, so I've got the super-slick streamlined look, and I'm glad there are no screws lurking under my potentially fractious vulcanite. Which leaves me wondering - are there only two screws holding the body shell on, or are there further screws lurking in hitherto-unidentifed places? If the latter, where might one find them?</p>

<p>I assume the service manual was written before the style changed. That said, I thought the red dial came out in 1954, which is what my camera dates to (696xxx). Didn't see anything that looked bent when I had the film advance in bits. In any case, it can be brought to centre - it's not like its bent and only moving around the surface of a cone. Never did get the oil (or take some photos, for that matter). Will be out tomorrow, though. Not touching the self timer bits until I know how they come off.</p>

 

[nomad_.]

<p>Managed to track down the Leitz repair manual. It looks like it is only held in with two screws. The self timer bits have to be removed as well, so maybe some of this clamps the body shell to the chassis inside.</p>

 

[nomad_.]

<p>A follow-up...</p>

<p>The outer parts of the self timer assembly, plus the two screws on the front of the body do indeed hold the body shell on. I took it off, but didn't see anything amiss - no odd shapes, no fragments of film, etc. I put the camera back together and later went out to take photos. I don't know if the cold weather was a factor, but I found that the slow speeds (1/25th, say) were too slow - the 1st curtain wasn't traversing the film opening properly. I decided that servicing the shutter was beyond me and put it in for a CLA. The repair guy said the camera was basically dry inside, and when it came back, the shutter was fine. He also freed up the aperture ring on the Elmar.</p>

<p>However, all was still not well. I shot a couple of rolls and found that the sprockets would jump, usually when about half way through the film, resulting in a big patch of multiple exposures. I sacrificed a roll to observe what was going on as the the film was wound on. What I saw was that the film was running off the take-up spool. The point where this happened varied - a couple of times, the film got nearly to the end. This was the same as what I experienced with the first roll I used when I first got the camera (it felt like the sprockets had jumped when I was sure there were still a couple of frames to go). I eventually came to the conclusion that the friction clutch didn't have enough drag - the sprockets were driving the film through, but the roll on the spool wasn't tight enough, resulting in the last two or three layers of film being loose. Since this resulted in the part of the film passing over the sprockets having reduced tension, the sprockets would eventually jump. At no point has there been damage to the sprocket holes in the film.</p>

<p>Some web searching unearthed a document on servicing the M2, which mentioned that the torque for that camera should be about 250g/cm. I compared the tension of the IIIf spool with that on my recently acquired M2, and there was a big difference - the M2 was noticably tighter, while the IIIf could be rotated with hardly any pressure. I took the drive spindle off the IIIf and added some washers to increase the pressure applied by the spring, until I got something that was fairly similar to the M2 (not quite as much, but close). I went through the sacrificial roll of film 3 or 4 times with no jumping sprocket issue. The film advanced cleanly to the end each time. I don't know yet if the film scratching will have been resolved with this. As I said, I didn't see anything amiss when I had the body shell off, so I'm wondering if the back of the film was getting scratched because it was bowing out instead of being taken up by the spool (it's wound onto the spool emulsion side out, but the scratching was on the back of the film). Next step is to put a test roll through it and see what happens.</p>

<p> </p>