Nikkor 450 or Fujinon 420?

[chris_jordan3]

Hey guys, thanks for all your great thoughts on my 8x10 lens question.

Now I'm down to two lenses: a Nikkor 450 f/9 (about $1000), or a

Fujinon L 420 f/8, which someone on this forum has offered to sell

me for a very reasonable $300.

 

Does anyone have thoughts on the difference in sharpness/contrast that

I'd see between these lenses, assuming both are in pristine condition?

 

~chris jordan (Seattle)

[michael_kadillak6]

I obviously love Nikon glass as evidenced by the fact that the majority of my large format lenses are Nikon. But I will tell you that after using one, I decided NOT to get the Nikon 450. Great lens, but after using the Fuji 450 with its 52mm filter in a Copal #1, the massive Copal #3 used on the Nikon 450 was was to big and heavy for me. I use the 450 Fuji on 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 and it is sharp as a tack with a massive image circle of over 400mm. I have no problem focusing it even in the evening and morning as the image is so contrasty that it literally jumps out at you. The older I get, the more I appreciate intelligent design in light packaging. Why Nikon could not use the same criteria thaconcept thatThe Nikon 200 and 300m series is bwyond me. I have both of these and they are constantly in use whe I photograph. Good Luck.

[light-zone]

If I were you Chris, I'd grab the Fuji, especially at that price. Even if the Nikon were sharper, you're shooting 8X10 and probably going to be contact printing. Save the $700 and get the Fuji. Everytime you develope a negative you'll be patting yourself on the back for making the right decision. And with $700 you can buy some other nice items which you will no doubt be needing in the future, like film.

[chris_jordan3]

William, that's my general leaning too, but the reason I asked about the marginal difference is that I don't make contact prints-- I shoot color transparencies and make high-resolution drum scans and large inkjet prints, so even a tiny difference in sharpness is visible in the final result (that's why i'm going to all the expense to jump from 4x5 to 8x10).

 

so, if anyone has thoughts on whether there would be ANY difference between the lenses, please let me know.

 

~cj

[qtluong]

I have never heard about this Fuji 420. You should

check Kerry Thalmann's site (see Ressources on LFphoto.info)

to see if you can get more information about it.

My understanding is that older Fuji lenses were not as

good as the current C series.

 

I have used both the Nikkor and Fuji 450 and didn't notice

any difference in sharpness. The price you've been quoted

would be a steal for a modern Fuji 450.

[eugene_singer]

Chris, there is a world of difference between these two lenses. The Nikkor 450M is a four element Tessar type design. The Fuji 420L is a three element (triplet) design. The Fuji is single coated. The Nikkor is multi coated. The Nikkor is mounted in a Copal 3 shutter. The Fuji, in a Copal 1. Kerry Thalmann thinks that the "L" designation on the Fuji L stood for "low price". Fuji used to make the L Line to compete with the low priced triplets being manufactured in Europe and sold to students as starter lenses. They are no longer in production. See Kerry's website for more info. Check with Midwest Photo Exchange (mpex.com). They have the 450M Nikkor listed at under $800. It would be worthwhile to call, and talk to Jim. He may be able to quote a lower price. At least, you could save the cost of the call and the shipping. Midwest buys, sells, and ships all over the world The 450 f12.5 Fuji C is a compact lens mounted in a Copal 1 shutter. You may want to consider it. All, in all, you are only going to get what you pay for. The 450M Nikkor is a good investment.

[tito sobrinho]

"The Fujinon L is a four element Tessar design. It covers 49 degrees wide open and a 59 degrees at f22" View from Kramer, Modern Photography January 1974. I would buy the Fuji.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

Chris, get the Nikon, if only because god forbid and one day you want to shoot 11x14, or 8x20 or 12x20...you are good to go!

[jeffrey_scott]

If I am not mistaken, and god knows someone will surely pipe in to correct any mistakes, the Fuji 450/12 has a bigger image circle than the Nikon 450/9.

[steve_hamley]

Chris,

 

You should find all the relevant info at these two URLs:

 

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/fujinon.htm

 

http://members.aol.com/subgallery/

 

The last URL lists the lens as 3 elements in 3 groups, but contains a note that this is probably a typo, and that it is probably a 4/4 lens. It says the 420 L is single coated.

 

Here is Kerry Thalmann's word on the L series lenses from his Fujinon pages (URL above):

 

4. Ditto on the L series. The 300mm and 420mm L series lenses were discontinued back in mid-1982. It was during this same time period that the C series was introduced. The L series was Fujis low cost, entry level line. The 300mm and 420mm L lenses were both in big, relatively expensive Copal #3 shutters. When the EBC multicoated 300mm and 450mm C series models came out in mid-1982, in smaller, cheaper Copal #1 shutters, there was little reason to continue offering the 300mm and 420mm single coated L models in spendy #3 shutters. So, I think it's fairly safe to assume neither of these models were ever offered with EBC multicoatings. With no alternative in the C line, the 210mm f5.6 was the lone member of the L series to survive past mid-1982. It is still listed in the D.O. Industries Price List dated March 2, 1988. I am currently lacking official Fujinon literature between 1983 and 1996, so I'm not sure exactly when the 210mm L was discontinued, or if it was ever manufactured with EBC multicoatings. Again, if you have a 210mm Fujinon L, could you check the coatings and let me know if it appears to be multicoated.

 

A good 8x10 lens for $300 is still a deal.

 

Thanks!

 

Steve

[michael_kadillak6]

Jeffrey is correct:

 

Nikon 450 M -

50 degrees angle of coverage

4 elements in three groups

440 mm of coverage at f22

 

Fuji 450 C

57 degrees of coverage

4 elements in four groups

486 mm of coverage at f22

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

Ah but the question is to get the Nikon 450 or the Fuji <b>420. NOT </b> the Fuji 450......I dont think anybody in this forum is going to sell him a Fuji 450 C for $300!!! If so let me know who he is, I will buy the rest of his equipment at these prices.....

[jeffrey_scott]

Yes, but he is considering a lens for around $1000.00 (the Nikon) and he can get the Fuji 450/12 for less than that by a fair amount.

[eugene_singer]

I just checked the Midwest Photo Exchange website. A 450 f9 Nikkor-M is listed at $1050-new, and a 9+ used one is listed at $799. Jim has several used ones, and I'll bet he will accept a lower offer. The 450 f12.5 Fujinon-C is listed at $995, new, and there are no used ones listed. $300 for a dis-continued 450 f8 Fujinon-L is not a real bargain. There are plenty of well used older lenses out there in the $300 price range that can beat the quality of the glass, but probably not the shutter. I believe that the Nikkor 450M is a great match for Chris' new 8X10 (see previous posts for the type of camera he purchased).

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

I beleive Badger Graphics has the Nikon for $950 also.....If you plan to buy a new lens I would check Badger and Robert White before you go anywhere else. They might also have the Fuji 450. I still say the Nikon still the better choice, same filter size as your 210, lower f/stop to focus with. On the other hand on E bay there is one Nikon 450, for $850 if you use the buy it now option, or you might chance it by bidding.

[eugene_singer]

Badgergraphics has a 450 f8 Nikkor-M listed at $1040, new. Jeff has a used one listed at $850. He may not have a new one in stock. In that case, it would take a while to order one.

[michael_kadillak6]

Kinda makes you wonder why there are so many used Nikon 450's for sale on E-Bay and from the brokerage houses? It has been quite a time since I saw a 450 Fuji for sale used. In the art of compromise, I do not find the Fuji 450 difficult to focus at all. Plus you can buy a quality screw in filter in 52mm for $20 and nearly 1.8" of additional coverage over the Nikon seals the deal. But each photographer needs to balance their needs for themselves. Good Luck and let us know what you select.

[nicholas_f._jones]

Chris,

 

Given what you've said to this point, in your case it's all about sharpness. The Nikkor 450/9's image circle is certainly adequate for most purposes (as I have found in my use of the lens on 8x10), although the additional 46mm on the Fujinon C450 is obviously not to be disregarded. (Since the diagonal for 11x14 is 447.8mm, it now occurs to me that the Fujinon was intended to cover that format as well; ditto the CM-W 450/8 at 520mm--i.e. they may be bigger than they have to be for 8x10). But I wouldn't give up sharpness for the luxury of extra image circle in this case, since I plan to enlarge my 5x7's and 8x10's. This is all about getting a relatively few really good neg's even if you have to pass up some shots along the way.

 

According to Mike Davis' spec sheets, the Nikkor weighs only .81 lbs (12.96 oz.) more than the C450/12.5. We're talking 8x10 on a big tripod here, not back-packing with 4x5. Personally, after committing to transporting and lugging around a big heavy outfit, I'm not going to compromise the quality of my final image just to save 13 ounces.

 

A 52mm filter thread is nice. Since I do only b/w and choose a L37C uv practically all the time, and since I want a filter on every lens all the time for protection, this is not an issue. Cost might be an issue; weight (were I back-packing) might be an issue; but not convenience.

 

For landscape shooters, max. aperture f9 (Nikkor) vs. f12.5 (Fujinon C) is not to be pooh-pooed (sp?). That's almost one full stop.

 

If I were you, I'd go for a pre-owned but bargain priced Nikkor 450/9. The reason there are several of these on the market now, but evidently few or no Fujinon's, may have nothing to do with image quality, but rather weight in the case of back-backers et al. or some other non-optical issue. Seattle is a long way from Columbus, Ohio. Maybe you can work something out with Jim at Midwest. Good luck on your choice.

[armin_seeholzer]

Hi Chris

 

As you work many times in the night as I remember, you should take a f9 version at least!

What about the APO Ronar MC 480mm then you know you have the sharpest one! It will crop your vision but not so much!

But I sleep better to know I have the best!

But of course the 450 Nikkor is not far behind!

 

Good light and good luck!

[sal_santamaura]

Just back from a trip and reviewing the threads posted since I left. This one leads to one of my usual cranky questions. Steve Hamley: did you get Kerry's permission to copy text from his site and post it here?

[steve_hamley]

Sal,

 

No I didn't, and I thought about this some. I did give credit and the URL to his site which is typically accepted practice for a quotation. My apologies to Kerry if this is contrary to his wishes.

 

Thanks!

 

Steve

[roger_urban3]

The difference between f/9 and f/12.5 is too small to warrant justification of the Nikkor over the Fuji. As an experiment, I took one of my other lenses and set it to f/9, and while watching the ground glass, moved the aperature to f/12.5. The difference is very miniscule and I believe, it is way over-hyped on photo.net threads.

 

Try it yourself and see what I mean.

 

Most LF pictures are taken stopped down anyway, but if you think you're going to see a big difference and have an advange focusing during low-light sunset or sunrise I believe you may be kidding yourself.

 

After you try my suggested experiment, probably weight and smaller size carry more importance for you.

[butch_welch]

Chris,

 

While there are a lot of people quoting manufacturers specs on lenses there seem to be very few who have used all these lenses and and can make a fair evaluation. First the Fuji 450C is a great lens, small and light. It is sharp to the edges of an 11x14 when stopped down but the edges beyond that are not very good. The image circle is totally gone (black) beyond Fuji's circle specs of 486. 486 is the absolute circle of illumination, this is not the same as the circle of sharp definition, which is what Nikon is quoting for the 450M at f:16 or 22 at 440mm. If you are making enlargement this may be important. The Nikkor 450mm has an image circle of illumination larger than 20x24. The Fuji 420 L is exactly the same lens as the 450M but with a slightly smaller circle of illumination (still over 20x24) and only a single coating. This equates to slightly lower contrast in the Fuji L as compared to the Nikkor 450M, due to the coating differences. This contrast difference is probably less than 10% and not even an issue unless you shoot into the sun. For color work the lower contrast may even be desireable, and any contrast lost can be easily added back in Photoshop. The Fuji L is a fine lens as are the 450C and Nikkor 450M. For $300 I would get the Fuji L unless weight was an issue.