Photographing a sporting event on public property

[john_rudoff]

<p>We are planning to photograph a marathon which is being held on public streets in our city. We plan to sell the photos of the runners either as prints, digital downloads, or both, via a web-based 'storefront.' We plan to sell them TO the runners, and do NOT plan to sell them for other purposes (i.e., we do not plan to use them as stock photos, advertising, etc.) We will be ON public property, photographing runners who are ON public property.<br>

Do we have the right to do this? Can we be prevented from doing so either by the 'owners' of the race or by the police or city officials?<br>

Any suggestions or experience in this would be most gratefully received. Thanks -- John</p>

[pete_harlan1]

<blockquote>

<p>Can we be prevented from doing so either by the 'owners' of the race or by the police or city officials?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p><br />No. Not unless there is some specific restriction.<br>

Now if you are intrusive,(i.e) interfereing with the runners etc, that would be another story.</p>

<p>Public property, photographing the runners to sell to the runners..I see no problem as long as you are not being PAID to shoot the event.</p>

<p>There are many instances where photographers are being harrassed by unknowing people (security guards)..Shopping malls etc...where you do have legal right to be there; but quoting chapter and verse of legal issues usually enflames the situation.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>There are going to be 96 people at that thing, walking around with DSLRs. Chances are no one will bother you. If they do, ask the burning question, "Do you have an <em>excessive publicity</em> problem?" Most race organizers don't. If the race you're going to is anything like the ones I've been to, they'll want you to tell everyone about the race. </p>

<p>Many runners maintain their own blogs with reviews of race courses, their support crew's photos, training plans and so on. The race event will have many people communicating to the general public in the interest of supporting commerce in one form or another.</p>

<p>Race organizers will often, but not always, have an "official race photographer." What this amounts to is that the release for the race will sometimes be tied to a photo release clause in the race application. I can't think of a time when I've seen or heard of a problem, photographing runners at common races near home. </p>

<p>In practice, I've encountered the opposite; people who have run in races that they know I've photographed have directly asked me to give them a photo! </p>

<p>Police concerns at races I've been to have apparently been limited to directing traffic. They'll be concerned with public safety; the most likely catastrophic threat they'll prevent will be a traffic violation of a motor vehicle entering the race course. Chances are, no heat from The Fuzz.</p>

<p>I'll tell you this: a lot of the "official" photographers will shoot in one trap, and it's often not a good one. They'll photograph the face and front of just about everybody that goes through a spot; usually near a triathlon transition or race finish. The composition of those photos can be just horrible. You will probably see them sitting there; clicking away from the same spot. They'll get a photo; but, have a look at those, and I think you'll see what I mean. </p>

<p>You've seen 'em, or you will. A digital web page photo album with 900 people all running past the same spot. Head to foot figure height in the frame will be at about 75% of the frame's height; usually frontal shots. Little attention to composition.</p>

<p>If you do <em>anything else</em>, you will probably be more successful. I think your main sales concern with race photos is not likely to be legal restrictions; it will rest primarily with the basic question: Did you get a good photo?</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>I photographed runners in a trap at a triathlon some months ago. Link here: http://www.agxphoto.net/12july09/index.html</p>

<p>Primary method to avoiding the composition problem is to get away from the idea that you need to photograph everybody. Instead, try to photograph people with an attention to composition. You might miss the one or two people who would have bought the photos; but, it's going to amount to your time, so you might as well try to make a good picture.</p>

<p>I ran the trap in a 'V'. Runners were approaching my spot from two directions. One axis was my primary axis, with my secondary axis behind me, sweeping up in an arc beside me (to perpendicular to the runners). Primary axis was run off a telephoto laying on my bag; secondary axis was handheld 28-80 kit lens. I had lain upon the ground for most of the shots. They may not be the world's greatest sports photos, but I like 'em better than the "folding chair finish line trap," we see so often.</p>

<p>Key to installing a good trap for the photos will be to kind of get away from everyone else. If you look around, and there's a big crowd of people with cameras there, in that spot, you're in a bad spot for photos, most likely. Walk down the race course until the crowd thins out. Usually takes a whopping 200 yards of walking.</p>

<p>Those photos were made at a race over 1,000 participants (I think); runners were on a public street; no hassle. I don't sell those, but I made them without difficulty. Never have had a problem at a race. Will often see two or three photographers do the web store thing about the race within a week afterwards.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>If you're photographing The Enormous City Marathon for Big Magazine, you might have to coordinate with somebody. If you're photographing Bill's Marathon, Bill needs a certain amount of people to come to the race next year to cover his costs. The answer will be situationally dependent.</p>

<p>When you pick the spot, that big group of photographers, they're often at a place "where everything is going on." Wrong answer. The race is about the runner and the street. "Where everything is going on" is where the racers are moving. The real race is often not at the finish line. It's where they're out there alone. I often like to pick a spot where they've begun to face a hill, or come down it. That link for the photos was done on an inclined road.</p>

<p>Good luck! Maybe a real sports photographer can help you. J.</p>

[craig_gillette]

<p>In a general sense, no, there is no "legal" issue with taking pictures in public and selling them. You can even be paid to do so. </p>

<p>Potential event issues? Many events copyright or trademark their logos, their names, etc., and then license the use to "official" product vendors. This could be an issue if they have an established an profitable business in selling images to the runners. They can control the use of their trademarks. The bigger and more established an event, the more professionally managed it will be. So as John points out, it's going to depend somewhat on the event.</p>

<p>That could mean problems if you use their name in your advertising. You may have noticed that there used to be television (etc.) sales pushes tied to the Super Bowl. Now they are "Big Game" parties at restaurant A or get your TV in time for the "Big Game," etc.</p>

[DickArnold]

<p>I ran the Marine Corps Marathon in DC quite a few years ago. The issue is access to the runners after the race. I believe in that marathon the sponsors authorized the photographer and gave hiim access to the entry list and numbers as well as access at the finish where he got to hand out flyers (long before instant digital). He did a great professional quality color job and I bought an 8x10 that I have framed. I don't remember how many runners there were but it took me about four minutes to get across the starting line. </p>

[alec_myers]

<blockquote>

<p>I'll tell you this: a lot of the "official" photographers will shoot in one trap, and it's often not a good one. They'll photograph the face and front of just about everybody that goes through a spot...little attention to composition.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>John - the 'official' photographer has to get "a" picture of pretty much everyone, to avoid the "<em>Why is there no picture of me? You're the 'official' photographer, you obviously weren't doing your job properly</em>" syndrome. That means playing safe. If you're not 'official' then nobody is going to be on your back for the picture you didn't get and the shots that you do get can be all the better.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>If you do <em>anything else</em>, you will probably be more successful. </p>

</blockquote>

<p>It depends on how you define success. If 'success' is defined as blanket coverage of absolutely everyone with something in focus, then, maybe not.</p>

[williamchuttonjr]

<p>I shot six or so races for pay. My boss said my job was to get a photo of everyone in the race and to make sure their number was visible. So that's what I tried to do. For large events there would be three photographers.<br>

Optimizing composition when trying to photograph 800 to 1,200 or so runners is not possible. One can and should pick a background/scene where the photos are appealing. We were told the runners like to see their feet so almost all of the photos were full body shots.<br>

In the US when you are on public property and the subject(s) are in public, you may photograph them. You may sell the photos. Some municipalities may require you to get a permit, but this would be unusual. The runners really don't care about composition. They care about being prominent in the picture and looking like they are an athlete. Shooting with a wide aperture helps with the poor composition/distracting background issue, but reduces the odds that the photo will be well focused.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>It has been mentioned a couple of times, but I'll mention it again - A lot of races have exclusivity clauses in their photographers contracts.</p>

<p>What this does is appoint them the "official" photographer for the event. That exclusivity gives them access to the "best" spots and the right to use the images, trademarks and logos. </p>

<p>It can also give the right to send other photographers who post and sell photos from that event a cease and desist order. Also keep in mind that event organizers have realized that the sales of photos from their events are a revenue stream for them. They (the organizers) don't like it when money is taken out of their pockets. Trust me on that one.</p>

<p>As far as this being the domain of the big marathons / events - Nope... There's a small marathon in a town near the cities (town's population is 10,000) marathon is 100 people. They have an exclusive contract with one of the national companies. </p>

<p>I would recommend checking with the organizer and seeing if they have a deal in place. If not then try to get the deal yourself.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

[alec_myers]

<blockquote>

<p>It can also give the right to send other photographers who post and sell photos from that event a cease and desist order.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>David,<br>

On what basis can this right be claimed? I'm not sure if it is pertinent to the mechanism by which a race organiser might "claim" the right to send cease and desist orders, but it's an established fact of trademark law that trademarks that appear "incidentally" in a photograph are not breached. </p>

[pete_harlan1]

<blockquote>

<p>On what basis can this right be claimed? I'm not sure if it is pertinent to the mechanism by which a race organiser might "claim" the right to send cease and desist orders, but it's an established fact of trademark law that trademarks that appear "incidentally" in a photograph are not breached.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I don't believe that is what David meant.<br>

Many races are sponsored. If (Nike) was a sponsor, the (exclusive) official photographer is allowed to stamp the Nike Swoosh on the prints for sale as long as Nike agrees to it. Sponsors usually agree to it with stipulations of course.</p>

<p>Now if a (un-official) shooter catches the Nike logo in the background, there is no infringement as that does not prove or show endorsement or association.</p>

<p>Each situation has to be looked at on a case by case basis.<br>

For instance, The NFL is copyrighted (rebroadcast rights etc...) AND trademarked (Logo and merchandise). You would be in violation if you photographed a player during the game and then attempted to sell the images.<br>

You could be sued by the NFL, it's affiliates, the players PR company and the player.</p>

[alec_myers]

<blockquote>

<p>You would be in violation if you photographed a player during the game and then attempted to sell the images.<br />You could be sued by the NFL, it's affiliates, the players PR company and the player.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Pete, </p>

<p>NFL games (as far as I know) aren't played on a public highway. If you enter a football ground you agree to conditions of entry, and unauthorized photography would make you a trespasser. That's entirely different to the situation the original poster is asking about. (And even then, it's uncertain that the NFL, its affiliates, the players or the PR company could actually enforce any action against you other than ejecting you from the grounds - but that's not the issue in question, and I'll let your assertion pass.)</p>

<p>Nobody has come up with any legitimate grounds to stop one from selling photos taken at a street race - probably because there aren't any.</p>

[pete_harlan1]

<p>If you look at my earlier response, I agree, there is no "law" preventing you from taking pics at a public race or selling them as long as you have the necessary releases.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>unauthorized photography would make you a trespasser</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Not true. Unauthorized <strong>"SALES"</strong> of photos taken at the game would be prohibited.<br>

Everyone takes pics at NFL games! Yeesh!<br>

I've been to several "public" NFL practice sessions..on public grounds with no admittance fee.<br>

Take a photo of Peyton Manning at a open practice on public ground and begin to offer it for sale; see what happens..You will be asked to cease and desist. If that didn't work, you would be sued by a fairly large 800 lb gorilla, The NFL and any of it's affiliates.</p>

[alec_myers]

<blockquote>

<p>unauthorized photography would make you a trespasser</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Pete, I picked my words very very carefully. If the photography is authorized then you're not a trespasser. If the picture-taking isn't authorized, then, de facto, you are a trespasser. Whether you're trespassing doesn't depend on what you plan to do with the pictures. Once you become a trespasser it's up to the people managing the event whether they want to eject you from the grounds or not. Whether "everyone" takes pictures at ballgames or not is not really relevant. It's perfectly feasible that "everyone" is violating the conditions of entry to the game, and could, technically, be ejected. Obviously common sense dictates this would be unwise.</p>

<p>Once you've taken the pictures, and if you publish them, you may be sued by an 800lb gorilla, but in the research I've done (I bow to others who can state a precedent, naturally) there's no lawful mechanism to prevent publication of a picture taken at a ball game, for profit or otherwise, for such things as reporting news events, editorial uses and what-not, or even to sell to the players themselves should you find one willing to pay you. Regardless, in fact, of whether you were authorized to take the picture, or were a trespasser at the time you took it. You might not want the 800lb gorilla on your back, but that doesn't give them a cause of action.</p>

<p> </p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Alec -</p>

<p>The legal right that the NFL, NHL, MLB, etc has is in the fact the 1. Congress has in effect made them legal monopolies. 2. The Team owns the right to all images, broadcasts, etc... of the game. In fact they state that at least 1 time every televised or radio aired game. It is also printed on the ticket. No reproduction of the game or depictions may be broadcast, printed or transmitted without the permission of the league. </p>

<p>Is it worth it for the NFL to go after Joe fan who puts a photo of their favorite team on their facebook or flickr? Probably not. But if that fan suddenly started selling posters of Adrian Peterson or Peyton Manning - I can almost guarantee you that the NFL would be calling quickly. Kind of like stepping into a hornet's nest...I don't need to do it to know it's painful.</p>

<p>The OP's question was about a marathon or race in a city - on city streets - Could he take photos of that and sell to the participants? My answer was from the perspective of a photographer who does events / tourney's etc and makes a side income doing the same - All it takes is a phone call to the organizer to find out if they have a deal with a photographer. If they don't offer to be that photographer. If they do - respect the deal that they have in place and let the "official" photographer make the money.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[thomas_clarke]

<p>I have a question along these same lines, but from the perspective of the "official" photographer. What right, if any, do I have as an "official" photographer to keep an unauthorized photographer from advertising and distributing images they took at the race? My agreement states I am the sole photographic vendor, so the way I see it anyone else selling pictures of the event is stealing from me. Am I right?<br>

What has happened is during the day of the race I noticed a photographer with pro gear hawking my angles. When I introduced myself as the official photographer and engaged him in conversation he portrayed himself as a neighbor of the park's that he was just an avid amateur who wanted to take some shots for himself. Fine, I'm not a ball buster so whatever. Fast forward a few days and low and behold he's posted on the event's Facebook fan page multiple samples, a vague reference to how it was his pleasure to photograph everyone, and then his name and number! <br>

I realize I can't ask him to take the pictures down from the fan page, but I did call the number and ask him to remove the advertising bit including his name and number. He was indignant and seemed to dismiss any wrong doing, but said he would reword the phrase. I have a feeling he's going to continue to try to advertise his pics so I'm giving him 24hrs before I go to the event organizer, who also runs the fan page, and have the wording removed.</p>

<p>For my education, can anyone tell me am I in the right here? </p>