I just don't get color calibration.

[mgk1966]

<p>I've been wrestling with monitor calibration for years and can't seem to get a handle on it. I have a Spyder II Express set up on an HP 2475w monitor. I use Lightroom 2 for 95% of my editing, and I export in sRGB. Sometimes I do local adjustments in Photoshop with the color settings set to sRGB. When I view the pictures on my Smugmug site, they often look much too red. Below is an example of the difference. On my laptop and my fiance's 21" Samsung, the pictures look fine online, but not on mine. <br>

My questions are: what's going on here? what color profile should i use in PS? which one more accurately reflects the prints? <br>

I know that you calibrate for prints, but I'm concerned about clients seeing the wrong colors online.<br>

Thanks in advance,<br />Matt</p><div></div>

[vlad khavin]

<p>Matt,<br>

When you save your JPEGs that you're uploading to Smugmug... are you embedding the color profile? It's an option in the save dialog. If you're not, try doing that and see if that fixes things with posting your images online.</p>

[silverdae]

<p>There is more than one variable here. Color depends on numerous factors- first, your monitor calibration. Second, the ability of the program you're using to accurately display colors (this will come in handy later). Third (where prints come in), viewing your image with the printer profile of the printer you are going to use. </p>

<p>Your problem lies in the fact that you are using an non-color-managed program to view your images online- Internet explorer. That just means that it is displaying a generic rendition of your color. PS and LR are showing the actual accurate color rendition. </p>

<p>There is no way to get an image to look accurate if it is going to be viewed online- too many variables. First, your not going to be able to control the other person's monitor set-up. They may have an overall green vast to their display, so that right there kills any minor color variations you've worked so hard to achieve. Second, they are not using color-managed programs anyway. Again, most web browsers are NOT color managed- nothing is managing that embedded profile- its just showing it with a generic rendition. </p>

<p>Until the world calibrates their monitors accurately and uses color managed applications only, there is no way to fully control color when your client is seeing your image on something other than a calibrated system using a color-managed application. </p>

<p> </p>

[lindsay_dobson]

<p>Matthew, ensure that prior to output you do this: Edit, Convert to Profile, sRGB. You files will then retain good colour accuracy and saturation when viewed on the web, but as Jen said you can't control everybody else's monitors. Also, ensure you recalibrate your monitor every month or so.</p>

<p>Also, check you're using the same colour space between your editing applications.</p>

[howard_m]

<p>not all web browsers in the PC world are properly color managed.</p>

[silverdae]

<p>I should rephrase-</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>PS and LR are showing the actual accurate color rendition.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><em>For that color space. </em> If PS and LR are not set to work in the same color space, you can have a difference between what LR and PS show. ProPhoto in LR will show a larger color gamut than PS in sRGB. </p>

<p>But again, your problem is that you're viewing something you expect to be color managed in a program that doesn't support color-management.</p>

[mgk1966]

<p>Thank you. So it sounds like it's mostly just an issue viewing them online on some monitors. For some reason it's wrong on my good monitor and right on my bad one. </p>

<p>WRT using the same color space between editing programs, LR does not seem to give me this option. PS has a few options. One is sRGB, which is consistent with what I see in LR. Another is Spyder II Express, which is consistent with what I see online. It's not intuitive that Spyder II would be the wrong one.<br>

<br />Thanks,<br>

Matt</p>

[mgk1966]

<p>What I also don't get is why I look at other people's work on the same monitor with IE and they look fine. Shouldn't they all have a consistent red shift?</p>

[alec_myers]

<p>Matthew -</p>

<p>Read this set of pages: long, but well worthwhile:<br>

<a href="http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/color-spaces-page1">http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/color-spaces-page1</a></p>

<p> </p>

[silverdae]

<blockquote>

<p>it's wrong on my good monitor and right on my bad one.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Again, color management. Do you have both monitors profiled to the same color standards? </p>

<p>As to the LR vs PS issue, do you have LR performing in sRGB and PS performing in sRGB? LR's default is prophoto. When I have LR in front of me tomorrow, I can help you work some of that out. Email me if you need further help sorting this whole color consitency thing out. I'll be glad to open up each and guide to the standards I've found helpful. If we can't answer your question, browse the "Digital Darkroom" forums. There are some geniuses lurking there, I promise (take what ever Patrick tells to heart- he's a god). And yes, I'm obsessed with color accuracy (and luminance accuracy, and the like), so I understand your frustration.</p>

<p>There is hope, just not control.</p>

[silverdae]

<p>I just browsed it, but awesome link:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Read this set of pages: long, but well worthwhile:<br /> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/color-spaces-page1" target="_blank">http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/color-spaces-page1</a></p>

</blockquote>

[lindsay_dobson]

<p>Matthew, your monitor profile affects how images are displayed on that monitor - it has nothing to do with the images own colour space (this is why monitor profiling/'calibration' with a colorimeter device such as a Spyder is so important). Photoshop's colour space is device-independant, eg AdobeRGB or sRGB. Providing your images are properly corrected on a colour calibrated monitor then all you have to do for images destined for the web is, as I said earlier, use the Edit, Convert To Profile, sRGB procedure, which will ensure colour accuracy on the web (notwithstanding the lack of calibration on the viewer's own monitor). sRGB was designed to be compatible with applications such as internet browsers, and printers.</p>

<p>Whatever colour space you decide to work/edit in, such as Adobe RGB, make sure that it is set the same between your applications, such as Photoshop and Lightroom.</p>

[mgk1966]

<p>I'm not sure what color space I'm editing in in LR. The only preferences I see are under external editing. When I export, I choose sRGB. When I open the exported files in PS, with sRGB IEC61966-2.1 as the working space, the pictures look the same as they do in LR. When I save as, I attach the color space. I also tried edit>convert as suggested. In all cases, it looks right on my editing programs, wrong in IE. Way wrong sometimes. <br>

<br />Thanks again,<br>

Matt</p>

[lindsay_dobson]

<p>It sounds as though something is going wrong, or is being omitted, at the final stage of preparing your web images. When you go to Edit, Convert to Profile, you'll see the sRGB option, but don't assume it is 'set' just because you saw it. You actually need to select it (highlight it in blue) before you press OK. And does the box underneath which says Engine read: Adobe (ACE), and does the Intent box read: Relative Colormetric.</p>

[mgk1966]

<p>Lindsey. Yes it does say that. Still having the problem. For most pictures I'm not even going through PS. I'm using LR. Thx again.</p>

[silverdae]

<p>Then it isn't your color-management policies that are out of whack... its still the fact that you are viewing the images in a non-color managed program. Viewing a picture in IE, whether it comes from your local computer or from someone elses (internet), IE is still not color managed. Even though the image might have a color profile attached, IE can't read that information and thus can't display the image accordingly. If it can't understand an embedded color profile, it just ignores it. That's why your two color-managed programs look the same- they can read the profile. IE looks different because it can't. </p>

[mgk1966]

<p>Okay, but why would it be that everybody else' pictures look fine in IE, but mine look off?<br>

<br /> Thanks again.</p>

[roger_smith4]

<p>"Okay, but why would it be that everybody else' pictures look fine in IE, but mine look off?"<br>

Matthew, probably because you don't know what their picture should look like but are keenly aware of your own. Also, just because your images in IE look wrong to you don't mean that they look wrong to us- you don't know if our monitors are calibrated and if we're using an ICC aware application to view them.<br /><br>

I'm not familiar with your screen but if you're using an old Spyder with a LCD wide gamut monitor, expect problems profiling. Also expect color problems with non color managed apps on a wide gamut monitor (try Firefox instead of IE).<br /> <br /> For Spyder help, you might try the Datacolor support forum. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/datacolor_group/</p>