Leica announces "S" system prices

[doug herr]

<p>I check the histogram well before the critical moment (when I'm still out of range for 'keepers') and leave the camera on manual so the stoopid light meter doesn't change the exposure.</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>For those involved in sports, wildlife and street photography, even the checking of histograms at critical moments is impossible,</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Where does this come from? I shoot sports professionally, I check my histogram regularly, and so does every other sports photographer I know or have observed. There is always an interval long enough to check the histogram. Some photographers I know even regularly pull out a white card and shoot it for white balance calibration. Regarding wildlife, it looks like Doug shoots wildlife, doesn't it? And on the street, it's rare for there not to be plenty of moments when the histogram can be checked.<br /> <br /></p>

[aplumpton]

<p>"There is always an interval long enough to check the histogram."</p>

<p>Voilà, Jeff! That is exactly what I mentioned. </p>

<p>In between critical moments (eye blinks, animal movements, sports dynamics) the histogram can be checked. This also supports my contention that using an MF film camera allows that possibility also with fast moving subjects, as long as the companion P&S digital camera or system 35mm digital camera provides accurate, or calibratable, reference histograms for the film exposure.</p>

[Spearhead]

<p>If I had to pick up a second camera, I would miss shots. I can't see why I would carry a second camera just for histograms when the one in my hand shows them.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>" I can't see why I would carry a second camera just for histograms when the one in my hand shows them."</p>

<p>A 30 or 40,000 $ Leica S2 camera and lens(es) in your hand is the best reason I can think of! (I prefer having a few thousand dollar MF film camera, lenses, and a $500 quality P&S as a histogram + exposure meter, rather than the S2 system. Try it sometime - you might be amazed....).</p>

[mark cortella]

<p>Everyone here is complaining about the cost. Even for the pro photographers. Sorry to dissapoint you doomsayers,but Leica looks like it has a winner on it's hands. For a pro,it is a Tax Deductable Business Expense. In Canada,you divide the cost of expensive items by 5 years,deduct 1/5 per year. Lets say 25,000 for the camera,5000 for each lens. That's 9000 dollars a year off the tax bill. For the camera and 4 lenses.Still think it's to expensive? Most countries are like that with their tax systems. Anything you use to make money/income in your business pursuits is tax deductable. Anything. And then your comparing it to a Hassy HD3-ever used one? My friend in Milan has a 31mp and 39 mp HD-3. He isn't going to upgrade to the 50mp version-the 39 is good enough already. But they are big,heavy cameras. And the S2 appears to be about the size of an R9-does anyone know how big and heavy it actually is? It looks smaller than the HD3. And he,and several of his friends,all pros,are eyeing the S2. And they are all about to jump ship. For a pro,it's "can it do the job,can it make money,is it easier to use than what I have-the answer for the S2 is yes. Why do you people think Hassey dropped it's prices? To compete with Leica's new S2. My friend and his pals will sell the used Hassys to the Amateurs for a good price,and make money on the deal-they have all made it back as tax deductions,remember? That's how it works. I'm going to stick my neck out and make a prediction. Leica will be the Top medium format dslr maker in a few years,with Mamiya/Phase One taking up the low cost option. Hasselblad is history.</p>

[mark cortella]

<p>And you guys should all be on your knees praying Leica makes a ton of money in the medium format market. Because,they know the S2 is way to expensive for the amatuers. So,they resurrect the R10 system,useing all the r&d they developed in making the S2. You will then get a $8 to 10 thousand dollar 25 mp dslr with auto everything from Leica,that you can use your R lenses on in focus confirmation mode. And you willall complain about the price of the camera and af lenses! By the way,ever seen the output from the 10 megapixel Leica digital back for the R8/9 ? Looking at it,it's hard to believe it's only10 mp. Can you imagine what they will give you with a 25mp dedicated dslr?</p>

[mark cortella]

<p>One more thought regarding prices. In the US,they may not be as expensive,as Leica may figure they can make as much money selling more S2's at a lower price,just to get market share. Same with other countries.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Good luck Leica!! Mike is right that pros have other considerations and possibilities. The tax write-offs are OK, but the major cost is in the purchase.</p>

<p>A lot of pros may see the 60MP MFs and likely upgrade there, rather than to a small MF sensor and much lower pixel density that may be outdated by the time they get there hands on it. Analogous example of the 10MP M8 and the Canon-Nikon 20MP+ full frame DSLRs. Perhaps the only thing you can say (and which has already been said) for the S2 is the water-resistant housing and the lens quality, but the others are not far behind on the latter issue, if at all.</p>

[doug herr]

<p>Arthur, the DSLR-like handling and a size no bigger than a D700 are also significant factors to consider.</p>

<p>Regarding pixel count and density, as Mark mentions the 10MP from the DMR is a joy to behold and according to those who've used the DMR along with the Nikon D3x and Sony A900 the DMR's image quality is still the one to beat. I've had three+ years' experience seeing what the DMR's 10MP will do when exposed to an APO-Telyt and the thought of 25MP R-mount camera with similar imaging properties sets my head spinning :) let alone what 37MP of Kodak CCD behind a 350mm APO-Telyt-S might do.</p>

<p>Lens quality? Don't get me started. Compare the 280mm f/4 APO with comparable Nikon and Canon 300mm lenses and you quickly realize there's no comparison.</p>

[bill_dewberry]

<p>Mark Cortella comment- 9,000 off the tax bill- <strong>absolutley wrong</strong> unless you live somewhere with a tax rate of 100 %; 9,000 is the deduction, the $$$ value of which is 9,000 x your tax rate.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Hi Doug,</p>

<p>My M8 has I believe the same Kodak sensor as the DMR, possibly similar software. For my M lenses (21 to 280) I had no other choice, but I think the M with its lenses are quite competitive. Still, the M body is only about $4000 with Leica rebate, so nowhere near an S2 in cost (albeit the S2 is a higher performance camera). I can believe that the long Leica lenses for the Leica SLR or DMR are great and it would be nice if Leica brings out an updated DSLR for those lenses.</p>

<p>As for MF quality, it is a competitive field and film is still great (at much lower equipment cost) if you don't have a professional's higher usage and quick turnaround needs.</p>

[doug herr]

<p>Arthur, with different crop factors, different microlens considerations and different partners (Imacon for the DMR, Jenoptic for the M8) I would think that there will be some differences between the DMR and M8.x files (16-bit from the DMR, 8-bit from the M8.x). Still from what I understand from others the DMR and M8 output is quite comparable.</p>

[stephen_asprey2]

<p>Its directed at the Hassy H series, Leaf and Phase One products. And the pricing is certainly competitive. It remains to be seen what the supporting firmware and software is like, because studio MF digital guys usually shoot tethered, and review/correct on a nice big screen as they go, to minimise post processing.</p>

[jaxphotocat]

<p>The Phase one works well without having to be tethered. It is like any medium format modular system. There some weight and bulk, but I think the Leica is going to have some bulk also. I think the next big move is to offer a rangefinder to get medium format digital to have an option that is easier to handle, like the Mamiya 6 or 7 models. Offer three basic lenses. Maybe even have the lens just built in and perhaps it is a short zoom?<br>

Phase Ones can run under $15,000 with the body, lens, and a digital back.<br>

I think over $20,000 is bit high. Get something under $10,000 and it changes buyers mindsets about investing in medium format digital. I mean it is not more crazy than spending over $5,000 for a DSLR body only.<br>

Just my 2 cents.</p>

<p>Mark</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Doug, thanks for those details. I read somewhere that the M8 actually goes to 12 bit, but it is stil not as powerful in that sense as the DMR.</p>

<p>I like the idea of Mark about digitizing the Mamiya 6, which is (was) a great and compact MF system camera, super lenses, at least for those not using long lenses or macro lenses. Wish that Leica would have purchased the Mamiya 6 patents and turned it into a quality MF digital body. </p>

[doug herr]

<p>

<p ><a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=1569833">Mark Cortella</a> <a href="http://www.photo.net/member-status-icons"></a>, wrote: "<em>... the S2 appears to be about the size of an R9-does anyone know how big and heavy it actually is?</em>"</p>

</p>

<p>http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/05/leica-s2-side-by-side-with-d3x-and.html</p>

[evan garner spellman]

<p>I don't add my 2 cents worth very often but I have wondered what the s2 would be priced at.<br>

What a total bunch of garbage, I liken the whole pricing structure to the way the Banks and Financial institutions handed out $billions of performance bonus's for little or no performance.<br>

That's who could probably afford this system or is stupid enough to pay the premium.<br>

Probably a super camera but.......</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Not sure how competitive the pricing is. I guess we'll see once it's actually available and selling. The measure isn't how it performs or how much it costs, but if the world can afford it right now. </p>

<p>I don't know anyone that can chuck out their existing system at a ferocious loss, and turn around and pay a premium for a smaller, more densely packed sensor and all new lenses. The tax depreciation thing is okay if you're making the money in the first place, however, there is a lot more to running a business than the gear ... especially if you already have the gear. Not that there aren't shooters out there that WILL do it ... the question is how many of them are there? </p>

<p>Quite a few Pros that actually own a MFD back (as opposed to renting) also use it on a view camera. So, in that case, the S2 camera would be supplimental, not a replacement. </p>

<p>Many 35mm DSLR users also use long glass. Longer than 180mm. Can't even begin to imagine the price of a long lens for the S2. The S2 lenses seem pretty quick for semi-MF, but not f/1.4 or /1.2 quick. Unlike 35 mm DSLRs I believe the S2 has one focus point. So, the question is can people who rely upon a 35mm DSLR for all the diverse shooting conditions and varied demands, replace their system with this one? If not (in my case the answer is it can't), then again, this camera is a suppliment.</p>

<p>At 50K+ for the basic 4 lens system ... that's a pretty expensive "suppliment" IMHO. </p>

[russ_butner___portland__or]

<p> Let's wait until we see how it performs in the real world. Leica can't even get 35mm digital correct. And now they're jumping into medium format digital...</p>

<p>Russ</p>

[william_tuovinen]

<p>Don't neglect bit depth, buffers, and lens speed. Megapixels aren't the only things that make good cameras. With its small size, weather sealing, medium format depth, at 35 DSLR frame rate ( http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ ), and fast lenses(for MF), not to mention fast sync speed options Leica is offering at competitive system if at premium prices. I can't afford one, but if I could afford the H system setup I want, I would be seriously looking at the S2.</p>

[roland_schmid]

<p>I handled a S2 prototype a couple of weeks ago. The most disappointing thing was the enormous release delay. Hopefully that will be fixed for the serial cameras. It should, for that money. Otherwise it will be an useless camera for many applications.</p>

[jstarks]

<p>It sounds like "win or bust" for Leica. I don't plan on getting one, but I do wish them well.<br>

Jesse</p>

[fotografz]

<p>I agree, I hope it does succeed to what ever degree Leica needs to keep going. I want this for selfish reasons ... I desire the M9 to carry on the bank busting investment I already have in M optics. Can't do that if the S2 sinks them.</p>

[stephen_asprey2]

<p>No "bust" for Leica...they are going gang busters with their GPS surveying products. Now every Caterpillar and Komatsu have auto levelling and profiling GPS systems supplied by Leica. Want to profile a hill into a special shape and dimensions? Load the cd and its hands off, baby. Amazing. Cameras are a doddle for them now.<br>

The S2 is designed as a studio camera, and a brand image maker for them, not a profit line. No need for weatherproofing or long or ultra wide lenses. Its for product shoots and portraits. Thats the niche they are after.</p>