They want more pictures..

[martindomok]

<p>Hello, <br>

I have met my client and gave them what we agreed - 400 pix on a DVD, they are very happy, now they want some prints, that is also fine. <br />However, I got an email today, that they want more pictures, even not good ones with other people just for the memory. <br>

How shall I handle this? I dont feel like retoutching another 100 or so pictures for them as I have been busy with my next wedding retoutching, but we became friends and I know already that they will photograph their baby soon...<br>

What would be the best approach to make both parties happy? <br>

Looks like more retouching and free pictures, honestly I dont care, I will give them extra pictures, but I dont feel like rtx more. <br>

Thanks, <br /><br />M</p>

 

[brien_szabo]

<p>I don't think many people mind being generous to a degree but there has to be a line in the sand. You could pick a number that you'll do - anything after that, there is a fee.</p>

[martindomok]

<p>Ok, lets say extra 50 free? </p>

 

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>Difficult to say with the limited information here. If you only took 450 and delivered 400 then I think it's OK for them to expect 400...........you could invite them to screen the other images with you and allow them to rescue a handful of the images. OTOH, if you took 800 and only delivered 400, then I think they'd be correct in feeling as if they've been shorted on images.</p>

<p>Since you consider them friends, I would simply suggest that you allow them to screen some of the images (you can selectively edit out any that you don't want them to consider beforehand), and drop them in a folder labeled "extras". Post time shouldn't take more than 30-90 minutes........and everyone is happy.</p>

[wedding-photography-denver]

<p>I am with David S. to some degree, except that if you shot 10k and delivered 400 it is fine with me if that is what you were contracted to provide. You have to be able to shoot liberally IMO, then cull/select as your eye dictates during the edit.</p>

<p>I used to offer a set number of images, but no longer. I got caught with my proverbial pants down when I shot for a retired couple who were remarrying (both previous spouses were deceased). It was a small affair and quiet barely describes the atmosphere. I would guess the average age of the guest list was around 65+ and the ONLY person moving was my assistant, or myself. Every time I turned around, the people would see me with the camera and shy away, or cover their face etc. I delivered 50 less images than I promised and had an incredibly tough time getting that many. They got every shot I took. Fortunately for me, the couple who I shot for were understanding and even thought it funny in the end. I no longer promise a number of images, I shoot what I see and deliver them. Sometimes its a few hundred, sometimes its several hundred. Depends mostly on the day and the participation of the guests.</p>

<p>I guess in the current position, I would likely give them more gratis and chalk this one up to experience and a reason to change what you do in future.</p>

<p>Ask them to look at your out takes and tell them they are unedited (if you are happy to show those images).</p>

[ben_goren]

<p>M,</p>

 

<p>You might want to consider explaining the kind of work you put into post-processing —

include a before-and-after example — and then give them small (say, 100 × 150 pixel)

thumbnails of the rest of the images you shot, but as unprocessed out-of-the-camera

(“before”) images. That should give them enough information to decide which (if any)

they think are worth you spending your time on. If they’re true friends, they won’t ask

for too much of a burden.</p>

 

<p>They may well also be interested in non-post-processed pictures. After all, what comes out of a

competent photographer’s camera is generally much, much better than any snapshot a non-

photographer takes, and they could just be looking for the equivalent of snapshots.</p>

 

<p>Cheers,</p>

 

<p>b&</p>

[todd_k.]

<p>MMMD. Money Makes the Monkey Dance. How much is your time worth?</p>

[melissa_arcuri1]

<p>I am sure this is going to be a VERY unpopular answer but here goes. When I shot weddings on my own I charged anywhere between $800-$1000. I was there for as long as they requested(9-12hrs) & I would limit myself to 12-15 rolls of 36 exp(but always carried more of course). This is what they got: a 4x6 proof of all the best images, a cd with everything and the negatives. No retouching, no albums, no reprints. I will tell you why. For several years I shot mostly with a friend. it was her business and I was the second shooter. I liked that because I was not responsible for anything except good pictures. Anyway, back to me. Between shooting my own, shooting with my friend and working fulltime during the week my free time was limited. I DID NOT nor DO I in the future want a couple or their friends and relatives calling me a year after their wedding to order 1 5x7. I have moved on to other weddings. I tell them that for x amount of money they can have EVERYTHING. I dont want to hold back the rights so that I can nickel and dime people, not worth the headache. I found that people were happy with this arrangement. I keep the rights to publish, sell, enter in competitions but that is it. I also feel that it is ridiculous how many photographers essentially rob people when it comes to albums and reprints.</p>

[missy_kay]

<p>Melissa- if you have an online proofing website and you're going to make money off of 1 5x7, then why not?</p>

[melissa_arcuri1]

<p>Missy-True! Consider me the laziest <strong>post</strong>-wedding photographer...ever.<br>

As I did so few on my own i did not feel it was worth it. I told my clients what sites to use to order good prints and how they could allow their family/friends to order as well. As a part time photographer this worked well for me. Again, I did not want them calling me, emailing, texting, ANYTHING. I know it sounds harsh but that was our agreement. Of course, I would never expect a full-time wedding photographer to use my "sysyem" 100%. But, I still believe that most photographers "extras" and even their packages are too expensive.</p>

[jack_fisher1]

<p>M,<br>

Even among friends there are "givers" and "takers". The takers often think nothing of taking advantage of a giver's friendship. Be careful about this or it could get worse - and you could find yourself spending too much time cultivating the friendship to your own detriment. The above posters gave some good advice. Explain what it takes, and that you might be sacrificing a lucrative job to accommodate the request. If you need to, put a price on the request. Then make some closure on the job, so they won't keep coming back for more. Even among friends, a contract can be appropriate. Just some thoughts... </p>

[martindomok]

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=1769024">David Schilling - Chicago, Illinois</a> : they knew beforehand they would be getting between 350-400 images, they got 400 already.<br>

I took about 1200 during the wedding day (in the package of 400 are 80 informal portraits we shot few weekd before the wedding).<br>

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=817037">David Wegwart - Denver/CO</a> : David I have this flexible, it is always anywhere between lets say 200-250, 350-400 it all depends hom much are they willing to spend, but I always give more than less.<br>

Ben: interesting samll res pix, unprocessed is an option as well.<br>

Fair point <a href="../photodb/user?user_id=4596302">Melissa Arcuri</a> , and thanks for ur input, the only reason I dont want to give them extra images that I have to retouch, 50 free retouched will ok this time I think.<br>

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=1479931"><br /> </a></p>

<p> </p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p><em>"....they knew beforehand they would be getting between 350-400 images, they got 400 already." -MM<br /></em><br>

I understood that they knew they could expect 400 images, my question is did they realize that they wouldn't even see half of all the images that you took? I think the typical B/G hear a number like 400 and it seems like a large amount at the time of booking. Later at the wedding, let's say you shoot 12 images during the cake cutting but they only see four, or they see you take 6 images during the first dance but they only receive two, etc... My guess is that the typical B/G hear a number like 400 and think it's a high amount without realizing that over a thousand will be taken by the photographer. My sense is that they would feel shorted and IMO I would agree with them.</p>

<p>Granted I've had this discussion with others that routinely cull their images by huge numbers, and I'll admit that some "styles" would lend themselves to this approach. However, I just can't understand a pro who trashes more than 10-15% of what they captured. Course if you managed the expectations of the B/G by showing them several sample weddings in the 400 image range and you told them how high your cull rate was, then my apologies, they knew ahead of time what to expect.</p>

<p> </p>

[natalie_l]

<p>I would give them 20 more images. Let them assume thats the rest of them.<br>

20 may make them happy, and wouldnt take too much more time (I hope).</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Most clients simply do not realize the post work involved with providing polished finished work.</p>

<p>I had a client sit with me once while I did some additional requested images ... she was fabergasted how much effort it took. Her impression was formed from taking pics from a P&S camera to Wall Mart and getting nice photos back.</p>

<p>Put a price on any extras, don't let anything out that you wouldn't be proud of.</p>

<p> </p>

[picturesque]

<p>MM--you need to decide what you want to do about these situations and stick to it. Once you decide, make sure you explain clearly to the couple (prospects at the time you explain) exactly what they will get AND that you will or will not entertain releasing everything you shoot.</p>

<p>Once you get into numbers of shots taken vs. shots given, you are at a disadvantage, because it is natural for people to want to see 'everything'. People do not realize or care that you might have to retouch shots and that you care about them seeing what you might consider a reject or technically flawed or sub par image. They also tend to think they own these shots. So when and if you talk about this subject, always speak in generalities--maybe percentages. You can also tell people you delete the ones you don't work with further, to stop them from badgering you, because they will, if they know those exist somewhere.</p>

<p>I personally never had a problem releasing most everything to clients. Some events, almost everything is given. I mass process my RAWS anyway. I also don't have a problem showing clients my rejects. When they see them, they know why I rejected them and back down. But that's me. I realize other people may feel differently about the subject.</p>

<p>As for this couple, take your pick. Either say no, you deleted them, or give them a small amount or a bigger amount. Whatever you wish to do.</p>

[timothy_gray]

<p>How did they come to find out there were additional images available?</p>

[colleendonovan]

<p>I delete any and all pictures that don't make the cut. It's easy to explain to clients that they don't exist. :)</p>

[Karim Ghantous]

<p>M M, I agree with those who say that you should just give them the extras but without going to too much effort. Win-win.</p>

<p>Melissa, I like your style!</p>

<p>Colleen, I'm not sure what to think of that but so far I like it. :-)</p>

[martindomok]

<p>Thanx for additional info. <br>

Sure it has to be a win-win situation, this time I will give them around 50 extra for free, but in the future I will play it percentage way and will explain that even though I will take many many pix during the wedding I deleted bad ones right then. <br>

So actually they wont know how many I took in total. <br>

<em>My guess is that the typical B/G hear a number like 400 and think it's a high amount without realizing that over a thousand will be taken by the photographer. My sense is that they would feel shorted and IMO I would agree with them.</em><br>

- I see your point here, I wouldnt say shortened - when U agree on something that is a deal. They should stop crying we want more pix. <br>

Tim - they know and remember when they were photographed<br>

<br />Also, dont think there is a reason to keep all the unwanted files, I will keep the minimum from each event and will delete the rest, do U guys keep everything from your past weddings? </p>

 

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p><em>My guess is that the typical B/G hear a number like 400 and think it's a high amount without realizing that over a thousand will be taken by the photographer. My sense is that they would feel shorted and IMO I would agree with them.<br /></em>- I see your point here, I wouldn't say shortened - when U agree on something that is a deal. They should stop crying we want more pix.</p>

<p>I'm not sure about what they should or shouldn't do. I do know that it's typically weddings and funerals that bring family and friends together and that of the two, weddings present the best photo ops. One of the many duties that comes with operating your own studio is customer service. This applies to managing client expectations prior to the wedding and delivering the services/products after-wards. Ultimately we want to avoid any crying after-wards unless they are emotional tears of joy that we've captured their memories of their day and created new ones by catching some moments of the details, family, and friends that they didn't see during their day.</p>

[mike_hitchen]

<p>Maybe the issue is slightly different. You have a digital canmera so you can walk round at no cost to yourself taking pictures of everyone, hitting the shutter button like a hyperactive woodpecker. But they don't see a photo of Great-Aunt Jessie flirting with the best man - what's that all about? Surely you must be holding some pictures back. What they probably don't realise is that instead you have been taking multiple images of fewer scenes.</p>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>Havent' done a wedding in a while but when I did I never promised any specific number to be shot. I covered the wedding and shot as many frames as I thought I needed to to capture what happened and be able to fill the albums. I think the problem with promising a number like 400 or 1,000 is twofold. To start, I'd be hard pressed to come up with that many legitimate separate pictures from a wedding. There are only so many combinations of the bride and groom and families and guests and the things that they do. It's very popular today to go beyond the closeup of the ring and have all sorts of detail shots like the shoes or a bow on the back of the gown, etc., but to me that's mostly padding to come up with a number. I think a lot of "400" counts include the multiple frames of a shot to ensure that nobody blinked, or the same setup done as full-length, medium and closeup. The second part is what constitutes a "picture." To a photographer (me at least), if I go out and shoot a 36 exposure roll (or 36 digital files) of a flower in the back yard, I look over the contacts and pick the best frame and work in the darkroom (or on the computer) to come up with a perfect print, I've shot one "picture." To the average consumer, each and every time I click the shutter is a picture, so if I clicked the shutter 1,000 times at a wedding, they expect 1,000 proofs not realizing that it might take 1,000 clicks to come up with 100-200 finished photos. If I shot a wedding today, I would tell the bride that I shoot as many pictures as I need, with no limit on the number, but that I deliver only the very best.</p>

[lisa_f]

<p>Side note: Maybe you should also get an additional contract if you decide to provide further images regardless of whether you decide to charge them.</p>

[angel_canary]

<p>My answer might not be the best for most people, but since there are two of us, and sometimes three, we take a lot of photos. We actually became known in our area for catching "all " the details. We have on average from both of us 1200-3500 raw images. I would say that out of that 80% we will post onling in a gallery (collages.net) as their proofs. We use lightroom to process them, and since we are purist at heart, it really doesn't need much correcting. We usually will find 20 to 100 photos we really like and open them from lightroom with cs4 and do some art work to them. We started posting them all for several reasons. It only takes me on average a couple days of my time to have them all done, so it's only my time, no costs there. It shows how hard we work and dedicated we are to our b and g. I used to pick the ones I like, then I would get asked about this or that, and they ALWAYS picked ones I would have deleted. I asked myself why - we see the technical side of photos, this one has slight blur, this one is a partial blink, etc. I have found, to my amazement that they didn't care about all of that. They loved it because of that moment and memory. How do we know the person the bride is hugging, but it's a little grainy, isn't her best friend from kindergarten?? So here's how we make a profit off of all of that hard work. Most couples, as someone mentioned above, think 400 is a lot until they see just how many it really takes to capture every moment. Our most popular packages come with 200 photos on the disc. They always pay to upgrade for more photos, always. There is no overhead really, it's just your time. And it makes our couples very, very happy and it shows them just how hard we worked for them. Just a suggestion.</p>