kevin_kemner1 Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Hi Everyone, <p> A few posts back there was a guy announced he had just bought his first LF package and as near as I can figure this outfit cost close to $4K. When I read this it struck me that it was a lot of money to enter a format that someone may not have had any experience and that it gave the impression that LF photography is one for the well off. <p> It also struck me that at a time when products for large format photography are being discontinued by major manufacturers we as a group have an obligation to encourage people to at least try the field. If the impression is that it costs thousands of dollars to enter LF than we can only expect the number of LF photographers to either diminish or remain relatively the same. In other words we as a buying group will become weaker and the range of products available to us will continue shrink as manufacturers find more profitable markets. <p> So my challenge to the forum is this: <p> Propose a beginners complete LF package that can be purchased for under $900. <p> Why $900, for the same reason things cost $19.99. Psychologically it means a lot to be under $1000. If we get a good set of responses maybe it can be made part of the site as a buying guide. <p> Good Luck and Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_smith Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 If you call Calumet you can get a nice 4x5 camera with lens, holders & dark cloth for well under your price limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_ilomaki Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Kevin: <p> Challenge taken. <p> I just bought a lightly used Graflex Super Speed Graphic with a very good coated German lens for $750 Cdn, including case and film holders. A very good used Manfrotto tripod can easily be had for less than 150 US so there is a first rate 4x5 outfit for less than 600 US. <p> With all due respect, a new Ebony, Sinar or Gandolfi is a waste for a newcomer. Learning how to load film, focus, then learn the movements can all be done on a used good camera. Also, a selection of lenses other than a single 135 mm or 210 mm or so is a needless distraction. <p> Spend a few hundred bucks on some outdated film, a daylight processing box and a light meter and then "Watch out Minor White/ John Sexton/ Richard Avedon/or even Robert Mapplethorpe". <p> If I were offering it for sale, I have a fully functional Iston wood field camera with a Wollensak barely coated lens and I would offer it for $300 US, with 2 holders. It works just fine. But of cours, I would not offer anything for sale on this site. <p> Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhananjay_n Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Heaps and heaps of ways to do it. One way - a decent condition Graphic 4x5 can be had for $300 or so (a used Meridian for about $500, maybe even a used Tech III). A used Fuji 150 mm can be had for aboput $200 - 300. A 100mm wide field Ektar for about $200. A set of 6 film holders (in 4x5, not too expensive even new). A Toyo loupe about $40. A cheap light meter like a Weston or even a used Gossen, less than $100. A tripod (pick up a wooden Bromwell for about $150 or troll eBay for cheaper and older wood tripods). <p> Even 8x10 can be managed on this kind of budget. I started with a Kodak 2D (paid about $300), a triple convertible Gundlach rectigraphic (about $150), six used film holders (about $100). You can even cough up for more recent glass like a Protar series or a Symmar convertible. <p> It can be done and with less quality impacts than in some other formats. My Gundlach rectigraphic gave me pictures that look as sharp in contact prints as more modern glass. Cheers, DJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_mahoney1 Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Kevin, at that price you're looking at used equipment, and there are steady offerings on both e-bay and the photo.net classifieds. I'm sure there are quality used kits available at some of the dealers as well. As to specifics, others have mentioned some popular timeless offerings that would serve a beginner as well as a higher priced kit. I'm currently looking for a lower priced kit myself ( wooden field, 90-135 lens ) so I'll let you know how I make out. Regards,Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dk_thompson Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 I couldn't agree with you more here, Kevin....as a pro who uses LF gear, I'm always dumbfounded at some of the setups people write about getting started with....if they could see the kind of equipment and age of it that we use in our studio, and even at other places I've worked in as an assistant.....I recently upgraded my 4x5 stuff at home, when Calumet started discounting the 45NX....you can get one new for $750 now....or the cheaper model for a hundred or so less. Or any number of older Toyos and Omegas on the market used.....that's what we use here, a newer Toyo GII model, and an absolutely ancient Omega D that just refuses to die! <p> My bid on a new setup would be a beginner Cambo/Calumet kit or the Toyo entry level monorail. Any decent used monorail as well, but try to price accesories like lensboards, bag bellows etc. before taking the plunge into the more expensive brands....all the little things can really add up after awhile. Probably the best place to start would be in learning to load a holder first, then think about buying a camera..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_bailey1 Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Dear Kevin; <p> You raise some interesting thoughts. As for my own experience, I have had a view camera for about 10 years, but it was resting comfortably on a shelf in my basement. When I originally got the camera, I had gone out and added all those accessories I could buy new and some I found in the camera store in their used area. I found it difficult to build my system. I shot some images, but never delved deeply into LF at that time. Most of my work was medium format or 6x17 panoramic (I guess that is 'kinda' shooting large forat). <p> Last year, a friend induced me to look at Ebay and start tracking all of the camera products being offered. I ended up buying a high end 35mm digital which re-awakened a passion for photography. Not just digital, but also causing me to shoot more film in my medium, panoramic, but especially large format cameras. Then I put two and two together and looked at the large format listings. All of a sudden, I am bidding on and winning auctions to buy those bits and pieces of equipment for my large format camera that I previously could not afford or maybe couldn't find. I have even bought stereo cameras via Ebay-when was the last time you thought about taking those kind of images. In a way, I think Ebay may be a tremendous asset to LF. Think of all those people who have had cameras they wanted to sell, but the prices offered when they went to re-sellers was not enough so they decided to just keep them in the box. Ebay gives them an outlet and the market determines the price which advantages both buyer and seller. I think it is easier and more convenient than scouring the used departments or waiting for ads in magazines that maybe were placed months ago. Put on top of this, forums like we are in where people from all over the country are giving advice, asking questions and mutually assisting each other. I felt like I was alone a decade ago and did not now where to turn for answers other than my local camera store-now I find friends and others who genuinely want to help me no matter how simple my needs. <p> Perhaps LF is being eclipsed in the commercial market-that can be a whole discussion by itself. Digital is certainly digging into the sales of film products and that trend is continuing. However, for people with a passion for taking pictures and for those enjoying the mystery and art of photography, there may be benefits in this revolution of technology. True, products and companies are disappearing at an unfortunately too quick rate, but the ranks may be strong as ever. <p> Thank you for helping me to think about these issues. <p> Regards, <p> John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_kenyon Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Kevin, As you have probably gathered by now prices of LF or any photographic gear for that matter is not a reliable indicator. It all depends on what the buyer is prepared to pay, what type of gear they are prepared to consider (some people have strange and strong preconceptions) and whether they know where to look. I picked up a good Horseman LS at a liquidation sale for just over $100, a Schneider 150mm / 265mm lens on eBay for $150 and a set of five film backs for less than $30 from the same auction site. I am sure that others have also bucked the shop prices and acquired decent LF gear at knock down prices. <p> Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_firth2 Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 DK, I agree. LF equipment just doesn't wear out too often. I have been using a mix of old and new equipment for nearly 40 years. It's just tools and I use whatever I have or can afford. <p> Don't knock those who buy new and get up. They are the suppliers of the good, barely used, equipment that ebay is filled with. Those of us who actually use the stuff need these people to take the edge off of the new prices for us. <p> But to the point of the thread, I always recommend that beginers get a Graphic or Busch press camera and use it for awhile before going to a view camera. You can get this outfit: camera with 135mm lens, 90mm angulon, some used holders, and a meter = $500 or less which is about the price of that new digital snapshot camera that will be obsolete in three years. When they do get ready for the view camera, I recommend a Graphic view to start. It's cheap, sturdy, and small and they can use their existing lenses. When it is time to step up to the "big time" cameras you can get every penny back from your investment in these old cameras. Try getting a 100% return from that $4K wizzband deluxe outfit! Meanwhile, you have just given yourself thousands of dollars of education. wf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_firth2 Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 >> Don't knock those who buy new and get up. << <p> Sorry, I meant to say:Don't knock those who buy new and then get out of LF. <p> wf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan brewer Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 It could have been me you were referring to, since I mentioned the cash outlay involved in my move up to LF, in comparing the relative start-up costs between 35/MF, LF, and Digital gear. It was closer to 5 grand, and while I would be the first one to agree that that is a lot of money, it's nowhere near top of the scale for LF. I certaily agree that you can get into LF for a lot less, but my situation was and is different. I'm new to LF, but don't consider myself a biginner. <p> Even if you were not referring to me I still think you have to take this on an individual basis. I totally agree that folks should know that you can get into LF for a lot less than I did. It would not be a good idea to spend 5 grand on a 'tryout', but in my case I was past that. <p> I've done this most of my adult life, fell in love w/the idea of doing the alternative processes, and contact printing w/POP paper. After thirty years of Portrait/People/Street scene work, this is a logical growth step for me and I can use my LF gear for my business and personal work. <p> I audited this forum for a year and researched the LF equipment I wanted and where I could get it at the lowest price. I could have easily ended up getting a LF outfit for a lot less than I did. <p> I had always wanted a Toyo 810MII, and one hit the market brand new, for about $1500.00 less than what the dealers were willing to sell it to me for at the exact same time I had decided to make the move. The camera was for sale for about the same price as a used one and it was get it now or pass. One of my better decisions 'cause I love this camera. This camera will be with me for life. <p> I didn't start out with the mind set, 'I think I'll blow 5 grand on a LF outfit'. The camera was $3300, I got a Docter Optics 360mm F6.7 Tessar for $737.00 from Mr Cad, and a Wollensak Velostigmat 300mm F4.5 SF for $285.00. I didn't 'splurge' moneywise and everything was 'cut to the bone', and after getting some invaluable feedback about the Toyo 810MII from Dave Anton, I got the camera while the 'getting was good'. <p> You can easily get into LF for less than $1000.00 if you're willing to wait, and pick your spots, and I mentioned my LF budget in the context of its comparison to digital gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_owen Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Although I get where you're coming from I have to disagree somewhat. My first and current LF outfit is an Ebony with a few (new) schneider lenses and 10 new Toyo film holders. This outfit cost me a small fortune!! BUT I knew that I wanted a set up that I could use and never have to change/upgrade. I appreciate that there are many fine photographers using much cheaper equipment and still turning out fabulous work. But I could not afford to buy an outfit only to find that I needed/wanted to upgrade it after a short time. Trade-in values here in the UK are laughable!! (And not just for LF kit). I spent a great deal of time and effort researching my options (and without the benefit of the vast pool of knowledge on this forum!!) before I bought my camera. But I agree that a first timer to photography would be better off trying a different format than LF at any price! However, the step to LF is a daunting enough prospect for even the most seasoned photographer and I wonder how many of this type of user would spend a few grand on an outfit if they were not real sure that it was the format for them. As for LF being a format for the well-off, well it is!! You either have to be wealthy or prepared to divert as much of your hard earned cash as you can manage to pursue your passion. Have you seen the price of gear? Film? Especially if you want to buy new! As for encouraging potential LF users. IMHO anyone considering moving to LF would probably be au fait with smaller formats and would be aware of the disciplined and expensive nature of LF photography. Its not like someone who is new to 35mm, starting out with a basic camera to see if he/she gets on with the hobby. Here in the UK you would be hard pushed to find a good condition used outfit for less than £600 (not sure what $1000 converts into!!). Such an outfit would be described at best as a "user". I personally would consider it a waste of money following this route. When I moved to LF I KNEW that it was the format for me! At first I struggled with tilts etc, but the fact that I had so much money tied up in my gear, IT WAS GOING TO WORK!! Finally, my advice to potential users of LF would be this: If you are serious then buy the best you can afford, but be aware that as a format it will be mighty expensive in all departments!! But despite these negative vibes, LF is still the most addictive and pleasurable type of photography!! Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_calwell Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Kevin ... I'm impressed with the awesome amount of money that some posters on this forum have to spend on LF photo gear. I take my hat off to them. As a working-class stiff with a family to feed, I have to scrimp and save to buy, say, one lens. It's possible to get workable gear at bargain prices. About two years ago, I purchased a used Calumet 8x10 C1 and an old 300mm lens, both for under $800. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_chinn Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 For any newcomer there is a balancing act when it comes to starting out in large format. Cost vs reliability. By reliability I am refering to a used outfit being in good enough shape to eliminate frustrating variables. Is the bellows light proof, is there excessive play in the standards on the rail, does it lock down the standards properly, what condition is the lens, the shutter, the film back etc. New you have the added expense but at least you know everything is new and works properly and is (supposedly) in alignment and calibrated. As someone who started out with used cameras (calumet 400c and Speed Graphic) I would have saved myself a lot of time buying new. I agree with Dan Smith about the the Calumet pkg. its new relatively robust for the price and the Caltar 150mm or 200mm lens are an excellent lens for the price with Calumet support and accesories available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge_gasteazoro3 Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 I agree with Paul, but I also think one has to balance the available budget with the available equipment. As an adult who has no children I was able to buy the best I could possibly afford, and I think this was a matter of choice, like someone said "there is nothing like the right tool for the job". IMO I always try to buy the best that I can afford, on the long run I end up saving more than if I bought a cheaper article which I would have to replace, trade in later for something better. There is nothing wrong with spending $4000 in an outfit that will last a life time, over the years the price will seem negligible. On the other hand if I can get an 8x10 Deardoff in mint condition for $500 I am sure as hell not going to pass on the opportunity. My initial LF purchase was of the expensive kind, Linhof TK 45, but as I mentioned before, this camera still looks and works like it was new...minus some fading numbers from use. :-))I certainly think that averaged over the 12 years I have owed this camera, the price was worth it. Having said that, I could not pass the offer of a speed graphic in mint condition with case and bulb flash :-)) for 350 dollars...I had great fun with this camera, even taking hand held fotos on 4x5...what a great experience! But in the end, getting the series VI filters, etc became a hassle and decided to sell it to a beguinner for the same price who has had a lot of fun and learning experiences with the camera. in the end it all comes to a matter of available funds and commitment to the format, and yes....some status recognition..:-))) <p> OTH I have to say that when I chose an 8x10 camera, I could not see myself paying $6000 to $9000 for an Ebony, heck for that I can buy a Canham 12x20 and a couple of lenses with film holders. So I went with the Gandolfi, I do beleive that there comes a time when the "best" is not necesarily the best at those prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_chmilar Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 I did exactly what Paul Owen did, for the same reasons. I bought an Ebony, two new lenses (1 R, 1 S), and a QuickLoad holder. I knew that I wanted to commit to LF, and didn't want to go through "upgrade" cycles (which would cost more, in the long run). I researched to choose equipment that I would buy once and never find "lacking". Cost was not my primary issue - I waited to save the money I needed. <p> If you are unsure of your commitment, or can't afford to buy your "final" gear, then finding bargains is a worthy idea. <p> If you really don't know if LF is suitable, rent the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dk_thompson Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Don't get me wrong with my comment...I wasn't aiming it at anyone or anything.....it's just that to me, anyways, a view camera is a pretty simple machine....when you're starting out there is simply no need for the kind of controls and features that you get on some of the high-end cameras.....it reminds me of an assistant we had once who couldn't do scheimpflug on our toyo....he insisted that we had to have a Sinar....if you can't do it visually, then having a scheimpflug scale & indicator is no big help either....I guess my point is this: get the best deal you can, but beware of really old beaters if you want to learn & enjoy it. There's nothing more frustrating than a camera that won't lock down, or chasing mysterious pinholes in a worn-out bellows....I agree that moving into LF can be a real mystery, especially if there's nobody around you to help....it just seems like a disservice (sp??) to say you have to have a $$$$$ camera or else you can't do large format....same goes for lighting too...I don't know how many threads there've been here and on other forums as well, that all say you need to use broncolors or elinchroms, kinflos and hosemasters.....I dunno, could just be me....I work in a place with zero in the way of equipment budgets....we use old cameras & when they break down, keep using them....and yet they work just fine, I see our stuff printed in 4 color, murals made, going on PR releases....shot on what some people call budget cameras and pieces of junk..... <p> Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my agency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan brewer Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Regardless of format, Photography for those who are serious about it, is not cheap. I think we're mixing up issues, you get what you get, with what you got, but if you're well off and buying toys that you use for a while and then get rid of at a considerable loss when you become bored, that is something else. <p> I buy cameras and camera gear for life. The bottom line regarding my selection of gear is will it give me trouble free operation after going off warranty. I try to get things where the initial outlay is the only 'big ticket' payment I have to make outside of regular maintenence and since I take care of my stuff, I rarely have to take my stuff to the shop. <p> The only equipment I've ever gotten rid of were my Rolleis 'cause they were in the shop too much. I made the switch to Mamiya and stopped the financial drain. There is not much to go wrong with LF, and I have some definite goals to attain w/LF(contact printing), so LF is a cinch for me. <p> Regardless of format, the cost is going to add up if you're serious about Photography even if you're not doing it as a business. There's no getting around the fact that it is expensive even as a serious hobby. <p> I think Leica is dynamite, but I wouldn't buy a leica 'cause I don't think there'll be a $1000.00 difference in the shot I take with a Leica versus the shot I take with the 35mm cameras I've got. I read up on Sinar cameras, they seem to be arguably the ultimate to some folks, I'm not about to pay $10,000 for one, even if I had the money. <p> I'll be the first one to suggest Robert White, Mr. Cad, and e-bay as a way to save money, even if you have it, because that's the way to be. We all know that Photography involves a lot of impulse buying only the rich folks can afford to be silly. <p> There are several issues at work here. Nobody is going to do any serious work with a 'point and shoot', so there is a bottom line and dollar amount that must be spent to do good work, but the stands and strobes and filters and so forth in addition to the camera system are going to add up. <p> No matter what you plan on spending on Photography, you're going to probably end up spending a lot more. That's an entirely different proposition than being a 'gearhead', which I define as being someone who buys more gear than they really need, essentially because they love to buy gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart_whatling Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 1x standard house brick $0.02 <p> 1x hacksaw ~ $5.00 <p> 1x visit to camera shop at 2:30AM - free <p> Spend the remaining $894.98 on film. <p> (only kidding) <p> More practically, if you live in or near a large city the $900 could be spent over a long period by renting a decent LF outfit only for those weekends when you're going to actually go out and use it. You can usually rent gear from Friday lunchtime through to monday morning for the price of a single day's hire. Has the added advantage that if you ever get enough to buy your own rig, you'll be a lot more familiar with the equipment and know what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_firth2 Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 This is a good discussion but it has evolved into two parts. <p> If you can afford the "good stuff" by all means do it. I shoot 4x10 a lot. I use a homemade camera exclusively for 4x10 even though I have a 4 x10 Canham in the closet. I use what I'm comfortable with. I just do not like to use the Canham although I know it is a fine camera --- for someone :) <p> But the original challenge was to put together a good outfit for little money. I think this is a really good exercise to put things into perspective. Good photography is the desired result and that can be accomplished just as well with an economy outfit as with a luxury outfit. wf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian_ngasi Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Kevin, <p> I am African and we have a saying in Swahili that goes like "He/She who chooses a hoe he is not a farmer" the same applies for first timers like me in LF. A year ago I bought a miniature (2X3)Speed Graphic for $250 + D.C tax at a flea market that comprised of a 105mm Schneider Xenar, a 101mm Ektar and a 65mm Wollesak Raptar all in mint condition. The seller even threw in 6 or 8 holders and a nice case. I have since been learning the craft, I feel I can pretty much use a LF camera in the most effective and efficient manner relative to the $$ I will commit. Let's not forget that, it is the eye and not the equipment that makes a good photographer although I will admit that a good equipment helps too. <p> Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dk_thompson Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Probably something else that I'd add...without going off on a tangent like I did before (sorry, must be in a bad mood today...)...is to you know, get a usable camera, but if you want to spend money (and can), get the best lens you can find.....that's all a view camera is, a box that you can put a lens on and stick a holder in..... <p> I'd also add, in regards to getting a good used high-end LF camera, hey---that's great for some people--but price out all the accesories you think you'll ever want before you buy the camera....lensboards, extension rails, short rails, bag bellows, extension bellows, fresnel gg attachments, viewing hoods, right angle finders, uh....let's see? compendium shades, roll film holders, etc. The cost & availability of some of that stuff can be surprising and depends alot on your location as well. Like I was saying...it's often the little things that add up the most.....I just went the opposite way, having worked with and around bare bones stuff my whole working life, I went with a basic camera and a couple of decent lenses. I figured all the fancy stuff would just be lost on me anyways.... <p> Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my agency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david richhart Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 HEY STUART... I am a bricklayer by trade, and I would like to know where you are getting your standard house bricks for 2 cents. The last bricks I ordered were 38 cents each plus sales tax!!! ;0D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james phillips Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Kevin, <p> Although I agree with some of the content in this discussion I cannot fully agree that a quality LF camera is not the way to go for a relative beginner. As for myself I was able to start on a Calumet C400 but quickly matured to a nice Ebony SV45U. Does my photographic skills warrant such an expensive camera? Would I not be able to make good photographs with a less expensive model? Of course the answers are I do not NEED an Ebony and yes I could probably accomplish the same results I presently get with a Crown Graphic. So why buy an Ebony? <p> Well just as when many folks invest in a new vehicle. You know what you are buying and what the car is capble of. You could have bought used but you might of had to settle for a different smaller or perhaps large car. You were not able to buy the exact model used that you wanted at the time you desired and wished to make the purchase. <p> More importantly you now have an investment in a new LF camera that has a specific dollar value. As long as you take care of your investment you can probably sell your expensive new camera and obtain a good portion of your money back. So this is really not such a big risk of "cash outlay" as some may think, especially if you are a relative beginner. You now have a known product and if you did your homework it will have a very good resale value. (should you change your mind about LF photography) <p> My vote goes for buying what best suits you budget and meets all your perceived needs. This will be different for each person, but I have learned my lesson through woodworking, "Always buy the best tools you can afford and only feel the pain once in your pocketbook. You will then always enjoy using these tools well into the future, making the job easier and more pleasurable." <p> Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_firth2 Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 Well stated, Adrian. We have a saying in the US: "That's it in a nutshell!" <p> >>>>Adrian said: Let's not forget that, it is the eye and not the equipment that makes a good photographer although I will admit that a good equipment helps too.<<<< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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