commenting on "bad" photographs

[jgalyon]

<p><em>I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I think people come here primarily to share information and enjoy themselves, not to be raked over the coals</em><br>

<em></em><br>

I think that not wanting to hurt someone's feeling is a common reason that people are hesitant to offer comments/critiques...especially if the photogaph has lots of problems.<em> </em>I think it most commendable that you don't want to hurt anyone's feeling, but as you went on to describe...there is a way to offer criticism that is constructive and doesn't have to be hurtful...doesn't discourage the photographer. On the other hand...we're adults and we shouldn't have to speak with other adults as though they're four year olds who just asked us if we like their first finger painting. Not saying we don't need to be sensitive. If I find that I'm commenting on a photograph posted by a sixteen year old that has written of his/her love of photography with the greatest of enthusiasm in their bio page...or, for instance I come upon a photograph by a member that states that he/she has been taking photographs all their life, but their eyesight is beginning to fail...they're no longer sure their pictures are in sharp focus...common sense and respect would tell anyone with a heart and mind that you would make a special effort to be as respectful as possible to those members. But save such circumstances as these...people just need to grow up. If we were so super-sensitive in the workplace we probably couldn't hold down a job for long and we surely wouldn't advance very far along any career path. <br>

<em>I took a LOT of REALLY BAD photos for many years before I became an enthusiast and put some work into improving my photography. I'm glad that people didn't discourage me from putting in the effort required to improve.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

For me...the most discouraging thing I can think of as a photographer would be for people to let me go on taking funky pictures, while allowing me to think they're good pictures because they don't want to "hurt my feelings"...only to have someone come along a few years down the road...who cares enough to be honest with me and tell me someone's been blowing smoke up my arse. Now that would be discouraging...</p>

<p><em>Next, there are the people who seem to be completely clueless that their work is bad. Some of them are even charging customers for these "bad" photos. I really don't know what to say in this instance. The photographer probably wouldn't accept a critique anyway because they don't realize that their output is substandard.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Yes, there are many, many out there that fit that description...some that would flick off Edward Weston came to them in a vision and told them their work sucked.</p>

<p><em>The photographer probably wouldn't accept a critique anyway because they don't realize that their output is substandard.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Probably? Why probably? This seems to be at or near the top of the list that many people heistate to offer criticism. The assumption that the photographer will reject their criticism. All I can say is that in all of my time on P.net I've had only (2) people react negatively to a critique/comment I've offered. That's not to say that everyone ageed with my criticism...I'm talking about total rejection of criticism in any form or fashion with no consideration if there is even the chance that the criticism might be valid, and in both cases... smarta**ed retaliatory comments attached. </p>

<p>You seem like a helluva nice guy Dan. I just think that you're underestimating the willingness of a lot of your peers to accept respectful, honest, constructive criticism...and as a result ...you're missing out on a lot of positive experiences that could be helpful to the parties on each end. best regards, john </p>

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[jgalyon]

<p>Fred. very pleased to find your comment...as I've read your comments on this topic several times in the past and always thought they were beyond spot-on. thanks my friend! john</p>

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[ndt_photo]

<p>I rarely rate images, but I do comment occasionally if a photograph could use something to push it over the edge to being excellent... Usually it involves cropping, contrast & color adjustment, or possibly recommending a change in perspective if the photographer returns to the location.</p>

<p>I never tell a photographer something is 'bad', because who am I to say what is good and bad. If they are in it for commercial purposes they will find out over time if their work is marketable. If they asked me if their work was salable I would as honest as possible, artists need to have thick skins and be able to absorb criticism...</p>

<p>Personally I crave constructive criticism, but it is hard to find, online or in the real world... I even tried to print some lousy images (in my mind) to see if people would point them out as needing more work, but they just moved right past them without a word. Sometimes silence can also say everything, especially if you are within earshot of your art in a public display setting...</p>

[dan_south]

 

<blockquote>

<p>Probably? Why probably? This seems to be at or near the top of the list that many people heistate to offer criticism. The assumption that the photographer will reject their criticism. All I can say is that in all of my time on P.net I've had only (2) people react negatively to a critique/comment I've offered. That's not to say that everyone ageed with my criticism...I'm talking about total rejection of criticism in any form or fashion with no consideration if there is even the chance that the criticism might be valid, and in both cases... smarta**ed retaliatory comments attached.</p>

<p>You seem like a helluva nice guy Dan. I just think that you're underestimating the willingness of a lot of your peers to accept respectful, honest, constructive criticism...and as a result ...you're missing out on a lot of positive experiences that could be helpful to the parties on each end. best regards, john</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Well, in case anyone missed the little winking guy at the bottom of my post, I had intended for my comments to be somewhat light-hearted. Criticism is a delicate and complicated subject, and I was hoping to defuse some of the inherent tension of judging and being judged by keeping my commentary on the lighter side. :)</p>

<p>In my earlier post I discussed some of the reasons why criticism can be tricky. Not everyone who posts an image for criticism is at the same level of their photographic development (no pun intended), and not everyone is equally ready to receive a serious critique. Plus, let's face it. Plenty of bad advice is given out on internet forums - not here specifically, but everywhere, even by "experts." Anyone who receives criticism from online sources needs to filter out the less-than-useful comments.</p>

<p>Regarding the "no MFA" comment, I think I know my way around a camera fairly well and I've produced work that makes me quite proud. That said, I know a lot more today than I did a year or two ago, and hopefully I'll know more still in a the future. Comments that I could have made years ago I might not agree with now, because I see things differently as I learn and gain experience. I can't claim to have an objective measure of qualification for critiquing the work of others. If I'm going to be a better photographer in the future, the advice that I give today might not be as good as I would hope it to be, regardless of how carefully or conservatively I try to phrase it.</p>

<p>That said, I do comment on images from time to time, and I try to keep my comments as objective as possible. Thanks for your suggestions!</p>

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[jacobeliana]

<p>I learned a great deal from those kind enough to comment on my...erm...crap photos. It helps.</p>

[tonmestrom]

<p><em>"The problem with giving negative comments or criticism is that most people react in a retaliatory way to it"</em></p>

<p>this hasn't been my experience. Only twice have I received e-mails that were, let's say less flattering about my perceived personality but so what. I rather thought they were funny. I've had far more positive feedback about being honest.<br>

On occasion I've received critical comments about some of my photos but that's just the reason why I post them here in the first place. I always invite people to be as honest or even brutal as they want. Of course one can lean back and turn into a cynic and criticize the flaws of people in general and this site in particular.</p>

<p>This site is about exchange and discussing. One can find beginners here as well as pro's who genuinely ask for feedback. Those are the smart ones that realise that learning never stops. Not everyone here is posting solely to receive praise. I'm getting a bit fed up with all those that complain instead of getting their own finger out.</p>

[the world in black white]

<p>John Galyon: There can be no dispute, you make lovely images!</p>

[murtuza_boxwalla]

<p>a photo is not always good from a certain perspective...but it might have some personal meaning...and a desire to share it without always having to make judgements on good and bad in terms of the aesthetic value. it actually makes you realize why certain images are unanimously perceived as 'good' at all levels. and then you strive to get to that level. from that standpoint, everybody is teacher.<br>

i am new to photo.net...but i have been on flickr for a while...and i have made some great friends...i don't always care about what pictures they post. so, i am sure there is a socail networking aspect here too that goes beyond photography.</p>

[murtuza_boxwalla]

<p>a photo is not always good from a certain perspective...but it might have some personal meaning...and a desire to share it without always having to make judgements on good and bad in terms of the aesthetic value. it actually makes you realize why certain images are unanimously perceived at 'good' at all levels. and then you strive to get to that level. from that standpoint, everybody is teacher.<br>

i am new to photo.net...but i have been on flickr for a while...and i have made some great friends...i don't always care about what pictures they post. so, i am sure there is a socail networking aspect here too that goes beyond photography.</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>I'm pleased that thus far the thread has been exceptionally positive and appeciate everyone taking the time...making the effort to participate in this thread. I think we could all learn and benefit fom all the input.</p>

<p>I must say however that almost from the start we got away from the initial purpose of the thread...which was to encourage a one month, voluntary commitment to offering comments/ critiques of photos that we might otherwise tend to overlook or ignore ...photographs that are most commonly referred to as "bad" photographs. We've talked about the definition of a "bad" photograph, how and why we either comment...or don't comment on "bad" photographs, past experiences we've had in commenting on "bad" photographs, etc. etc...and while the discussion has been (as I stated earlier) positive, beneficial, and appreciated...the fact is that of all of our thousands upon thousands of members, the number of members willing to make a committment ended up being a smaller number than we have fingers on one hand.</p>

<p>One member wrote, "Thanks for reading, and thanks for the opportunity for an interesting debate".</p>

<p>Trust me...I'm smiling after reading that comment that one member wrote in response to the initial post...it pretty well sums up the direction the thread took...and why. Instead of saying yes, I'll commmit...or no, I won't commit...and then discussing the peripheral aspects of the issue...most didn't address the commitment at all, but instead...used the thread as an opportunity to discuss, debate, vent, and so forth...but even so, that's far from being a totally "bad" thing.<br>

Since it seems that the discussion is coming to a natural end, I'll go ahead and say that I think it was successful in one sense, e.g., loads of relevant, insightful, valuable discussion and debate...but it fell quite short of full fledged success in that it garnered only a few solid committments to give attention to not only the good, better, best photographs...but those on the opposite end of the photgraphic spectrum...the so-called, "bad" photographs. But...even if it's just four or five commitments that we know of, that's better than where we began...and there may be more that have committed that didn't speak up. And lastly...hopefully a few "seeds" were planted that will take root as time goes on regarding this subject. Hopefully everyone who has read though this thread will now think twice before going on past the "bad" photographs...and might just begin to stop on occassion and offer their comments.</p>

<p>Thanks to all who have contributed! John</p>

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[murtuza_boxwalla]

<p>this discussion got a little to verbose and 'proper'<br>

your natural instinct might be to get defensive...and that's exactly what happens when you comment on 'bad' photos. it is never so black and white with good and bad...there are shades of grey. i would much rather rate a photo poorly than dare comment on it.</p>

 

[murtuza_boxwalla]

<p>just kidding. it's all good! :)</p>

[rascal64]

<p>Wonderful thread. I too, agree that there should be a critiquing 101 section here on PN. Or rather, a critiquing101 through the internet section here. I do not know who is on the other side of my words. As someone who has had very negative experiences of misconstrued words online, I try to keep it nice, or at least say something positive after something negative. I don't usually ask for specifics when I am asking for comments, because I want to see if the thing that has been bugging me, bugs others without pointing it out to them. If I get more than one set of 3/3's on something, I may not see the problem at first, but down the line, I can usually figure out where I blew it. I agree that there should be a safe place for beginners to receive constructive criticism...safe for both sides. And let's not forget the issue of taste. There are a lot of "styles" that I don't care for. Beginner or not, I don't comment or rate there.</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>drives me nuts when people say what's really on their mind....then come back with something like... "<br />just kidding"...as a safety valve in case they're offended someone. <br />just kidding....it's alll good!</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>"it is never so black and white with good and bad"</p>

<p>Murtuza is onto something, which I agree with. "Bad" is too objective a word most of the time. There are many photos which average in the 6s which I don't like and many which average in the 3s that I love. I tend often to be at odds with the majority viewpoint on PN aesthetically, so I rarely think in terms of "good" or "bad."</p>

<p>Tiffany, we've been exchanging comments for a while now and I've come to respect you, your photographs, and your way of talking to others. Thought this would interest you, and anyone else who's still listening.</p>

<p>Here's how I do it:</p>

<p>I see a photo I immediately don't like. I assume the photo has meaning for the photographer (that's why he posted it) and that either he hasn't conveyed that well or I'm missing it or it's just a difference in taste. That doesn't make it a bad photo. It makes it a photo, like any other, worthy of discussion. So I try to figure out what drew the photographer to this scene or to make this photo. It's usually easy to see . . . if I look, but not always. To try to do that, I have to get out of my own vision and ego and step into someone else's shoes. When I view photos in a gallery or museum, I feel free to react personally and with my gut. When I critique, I am more inclined to put my own vision aside and see it from the point of view of the photographer in question. That enables me to be constructive rather than strictly judgmental.</p>

<p>If I start off by saying "I'm going to critique this bad photo," I have already made an objective conclusion which seems to limit me aesthetically. If I start off by saying "Why don't I like this photo," I recognize my part in it and by doing that make it more likely that I can be empathetic to the photographer's view. For me, making it a better photo would be making the photo communicate more fluently what the photographer wants to communicate. That might not necessarily make me like it more but it still might help the photographer a lot. There might be, for example, a better way to have exposed the picture to accomplish what the photographer was after. I might still not respond personally to it, but it will make his picture better.</p>

<p>Sometimes, my "honest" comment doesn't do anyone any good if I'm too wrapped up in my ego. I'm aware that my own "brutal honesty" can be more about my trying to prove something . . . often to myself, and often about "I know better." But this is a game of feeling to begin with, knowing secondarily. (Generally, aesthetics is about feeling and technique is about knowing. I am more likely to help someone improve technique and also more likely to trespass on their aesthetics if I'm not careful.) For me, empathy is the key. Not empathy so that you know you won't hurt someone else's feelings, that may have to come with the territory of putting your photo up for critique. But empathy in terms of another person's photo. It's HIS work I'm critiquing, after all.</p>

[murtuza_boxwalla]

<p>don't want to drive you nuts. shall refrain from speaking my mind here and then apologizing. shall refrain from speaking at all.<br>

it was a good thread. take it easy.</p>

[rascal64]

<p>Fred...thank you, as always, for the thoughtful and helpful response.</p>

[murtuza_boxwalla]

<p>one last question before i shut up permanently:<br>

how would you rate your photos, good or bad?</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>Murtuza...no need to get your knickers in a wad. Why shut up permanently? Never had someone challenge anything you've had to say? Your thoughts are no less important than mine...so why let someone you don't even know make you want to run off and be quiet? Grow a set and speak up lad!</p>

[murtuza_boxwalla]

<p>my dear friend read your responses to my comments and then tell me who is being a grown up. dude, you did not even respond to what i was actually trying to say...except for picking on an isolated sentence...that was put into place for sensitive people such as yourself. knickers, eh? i love that word.<br>

point me to 5 photos that you think are good and 5 photos that you think are bad...illustrative your point. so i may go an comment on those bed photos.</p>

[murtuza_boxwalla]

<p>and sorry about the typos...beacuse i'm sure you are going to pick on those too instead of actually responding to my question. how do you rate your photos: good a bad. i was trying to make a point...that you failed to see. and point to me 5 or even 10 photos that you consider bad.<br>

grow a set, eh? beneath me to participate here.</p>

[murtuza_boxwalla]

<p>and lad, eh? aren't you condescending. you didn't answer a simple question...and just chose to insult me. look at your language:<br>

knickers in a wad<br>

Grow a set and speak up lad!<br>

disgusting.<br>

atleast, i tried to participate here...and all you did is insult me. i don't think i deserved that. you could have atleast acknowledged the rest of my points.<br>

you may do good work...even great work. goodluck.</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>Murtuza...calm down....you'll have anxiety attack. Glad you responded. That was the intent of my last comment ...to provoke you not to leave, but to stay and engage. And it looks as though it worked...at least for two paragraphs..., but then you say that it's "beneath you" to participate here. So tell me...have you left the conversation, or do you wish to chat about the topic at hand? It's up to you. But understand...if you're asking me to point out examples of bad photos...we can talk about that. If you're ordering me to give you examples...that won't work. If it's not beneath you to reply....maybe I'll hear back from you. :)</p>

[jgalyon]

<p>Murtuza... seems you wrote another paragraph before i could respond to the first two. you're too young to be obsessing! Let it go....take a deep breath, and think: is there something I want to talk about...or, do I want to go on with this steely focus on how my feelings have been hurt? Wannna talk photography? I'm all yours. What would you like to talk about? :)</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>I don't know, John, I gave a pretty lengthy and completely substantive comment on "bad" photos and critiques, just above in this thread, precisely the topic at hand, yet you've chosen to respond only to the personal issues you and Murtuza are having, completely ignoring my more relevant comments. You're basically doing the same thing you're accusing Murtuza of doing, which is being sidetracked by personal stuff at the expense of the topic at hand. The same thing happend on Dr. Von Zeek's photo the other day. I had made a very lengthy and very substantive comment about all the specific issues (light, exposure, aesthetics, beauty, nudity) that were relevant to the thread, and you picked up on the one sentence that ticked you off and never addressed the substantive points I made, though you did forgive my trespass of using a bad tone of voice by saying "of course," not unlike what you've done here in calling someone "lad." In that other thread, you also got into it at length about someone having edited their own comment (and I happen to agree with you on that) and, if I'm remembering correctly, about the use of capital letters. But you absolutely did not address my substantive comments at all. Is there a reason you've gotten so sidetracked in these personal tete a tetes in these particular two threads that you, too, have wound up neglecting the substance of the discussion?</p>