Leica M8: Ethical? Waterproof? And other questions

[alex_milton]

<p>Hi-<br>

I've been considering a leica M8 for a while, especially since the price has dropped from the m8.2 and used ones are now on the market. I still have a few questions.<br>

With the upgrade capability of this camera, and the good service from Leica, my questions about long term viability of this model have been put to rest. If I do end up with the M8, it will be the last camera I ever get, finally. Do we concur that the M8 is indeed a lifelong investment?</p>

<p>Have there been any reports of using this camera in extreme weather conditions? I have no problem taking my DSLR out in the rain, but not so sure about this...</p>

<p>Also, there is a problem of guilt. The final price for the M8 and two lenses (zeiss) will be about $5k. I'll sell all my other equipment to do this--about $2.5k, pawn an additional $1k of stuff on ebay, and make up the rest myself. I figure, the amount of money I spend on film and processing nowadays, it will be justified in 5-10 years. I don't really care about the mystique, I only want a small, discreet, rugged, digital camera that produces awesome images. I was looking at the Epson rangefinder but it's been discontinued. The M8 images continue to blow my mind. I currently use a canon film camera with a 35mm zeiss prime. Leica tends to advertise that the M series are small and quiet and low profile, but in my experience, whenever I see someone holding up a Leica, which is rarely, I'm like, "HOLY S**t." Has this been the experience of other leica users? Do you find yourself in embarrassing conversations with strangers over your equipment? Although I enjoy the tactile, mechanical fetish of photography, as most males do, I really try not to let it matter in the end, and don't find myself particularly "dweeby" about equipment--this is why I want the simplest, highest quality gear for the rest of my life.</p>

<p>If anything, I don't want a Leica, because it comes along with such heavy extra psychological baggage. In your experience, do other photographers treat you differently because of your choice of a Leica? Especially if you are not professional. How about normal folks? I am young, this is certainly not a retirement toy. Although I'm not a professional I do make occasional money off of my photography--about $500 in the past two years, and am considering doing more. I worry that some of my portrait clients might see such a camera and react negatively to it. No matter how you slice it, a Leica is an elite symbol of status unless you work professionally. Agree? In an ideal world, I would gladly purchase a generic, no name alternative to leica without the name and with the quality, but I'm not sure there is one, and am positive there isn't one as far as digital rangefinders go. If I ever do get the M8, the first thing I'll do is cover up the logo with some gaffers tape, although I wonder if that will make any difference...</p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>Not everyone would agree that it's the camera for a lifetime:</p>

<p>http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq/Page_2.html</p>

[alex_milton]

<p>Ouch. Thanks for that. Some of those problems won't apply to me since I'm not a pullitzer prize winning photo-journalist, but duly noted. And some of those problems are I think fixable with the upgrade.</p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>I've shot with Bronica and Mamiya rangefinders for quite some time. But I opted for a Nikon D700 for digital becuase I normally use digital for sports and events. Long lenses and rangefinders don't mesh well. Out come my film cameras when it's just for me.</p>

<p>My concern about a 'lifelong' camera from Leica is the company's viability. It's had several brushes with death, so I may very well outlive the company. That's not much of a worry with mechanical cameras - any good tech can service an old Leica. But electronics are harder to fix if you can't order a custom circuit board.</p>

[sitemistic]

<p>The M8 is a digital camera. It is not a lifetime investment. The sensor is already almost five years old. According to the latest from Leica, there will be no further upgrades to the M8/8.2 platform. Do you think you will be happy in 10 years with still using the camera when your kid's P&S will shoot noiseless images at ISO 25,000 and a resolution of 100 megapixels.<br>

No digital camera should be considered more than a five or 10 year camera. Including Leicas. But you don't have to morally justify the cost. If you can afford it buy it and have fun. If you can't afford it...well, that's up to you.</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>It is not a foul weather camera. Quite easy to get fatal condensation inside the camera on the circuits.</p>

[alex_milton]

<p>Alright, more things to think about. I thought I had heard somewhere that the Leica could withstand normal amounts of moisture, not necessarily rain, but maybe that wasn't the case. And Jim, I think I will be satisfied. I usually print small to 5X7, never bigger than 11X14. I don't know too much about the technicalities of digital, but, I've seen files and a few pritns from the camera, they look exceptional. What other proof do I need? But the implied point is well taken: the Leica m8 is one of the most expensive bodies, period, for what it is, 10mp no auto focus, etc... the cost is not justified when the lack of sophistication is taken into consideration.</p>

[tom_aellis1]

<p>I used one for about 3 weeks. Bottom line. Anything about 640 ASA and it was useless to me.<br>

That was the deal breaker alone. Now, I wait for a M body to put a f/1 on. (.95) but I will indeed wait.</p>

[cpj]

<p>Now, on to the information you requested about Leicas. I have owned every model "M" Leica since 1960, and as a working photojournalist for most of my career, I have usually owned TWO at a time of each model as they came out. I also own Nikons including an F5, F6, and D3 plus some of the lesser digital models and a host of lenses. Until the most recent spat of Leica lens releases, I owned the Summicrons in every version offered and all Leica lenses as follows: 21, 24, 28, 35, 50, 75, 90 and 135. (I don't have the 2008 Summicrons or Elmarits)</p>

<p>Currently I have an M8.2 and an M7. I sold my M8 a few months ago to purchase the M 8.2 (and took a beating on the depreciation.) However, here is the point of my story:</p>

<p> In all that time--49 years--I only had ONE Leica, an M2, that had the rangefinder go out of whack and that was the result of bouncing around at 1,000 ft in the air in a helicopter with the door open. But in April, I apparently failed to pack the M 8.2 properly in my baggage or the airlines was especially rough with that bag. Traveling from Boston to Chicago and the changing planes for Indianapolis, the rangefinder in the M 8.2 was thrown out of whack in BOTH directions. The view finder was out top to bottom so the images didn't coincide--but I thought the left to right was ok because I could line things up. Not so. Shooting at f2 with the 75mm the actual focus point was about 5-feet behind the point focused upon with the rangefinder.</p>

<p> I am aghast! I have traveled everywhere as a working newspaper photographer, and later magazine photographer, and NEVER except for the helicopter incident in the mid-1960's have I had to send any Leica M back to the factory for anything.</p>

<p> I don't know what to say. I believe the camera was rolled up inside a T-shirt in my bag as I was carrying it as a "just in case" camera and not on an assignment. {I've had two M4s, two M6s, two M7s, an M2 and and M3 at the same time and, (fortunately) only one M5 which I still think of as an abominable error in the M-line.)</p>

<p> So, with that background, I'd say in my mind the jury is OUT as far as the ruggedness of the M 8.2 goes and, for that matter, the M8. I've had friends who've carried M3's and M2's for over a year at a time in 'Nam and never had a problem, so this has me really wondering.</p>

[alex_milton]

<p>Oh man, CPeter. That's sounds pretty impossible for such an expensive camera. Maybe this isn't justified after all. I would really love it if someone came out with a dependable digital rangefinder.</p>

[wai_leong_lee]

Don't believe the stuff about 100mp cameras. The mp race is over. No one needs 100mp to print 20x30, so all 100mp would do is just bloat file sizes. Not to mention that pixel noise at higher resolutions doesn't have a solution.

[JDMvW]

<p>Repeat at least a dozen times: <em>by its nature, NO DIGITAL CAMERA WILL BE A LIFETIME INVESTMENT, </em><br>

unless, of course, your life is rather short.</p>

[andy_piper2]

<p>The M8 is not waterproof. Although mine have gone through moderate rain and fountain spatters and snow without any problems.</p>

<p>I don't get the "ethical" part, though. Most of the conversations my M8s have generated usually begin with something like "Oh - nice to see someone still using film!" None of them were with clients, who probably neither know nor care what kind of camera I use.</p>

<p>If another photographer or a client were actually ever offended by the type of camera I use - well, sorry, the root of that problem lies in what's between their ears, not which label is on the chunk of metal and glass in my hands.</p>

<p>However, I might point out that most of those Magnum photographers who use Leicas tend to use them in the service of social causes - as I do myself, from time to time: http://andypiper.squarespace.com/project-homeless-connect-a-pro/</p>

<p>If you are really concerned about the ethics behind the camera you choose - you might look into the factory that produced it. I imagine Leica Germany/Portugal ranks pretty high on ethical treatment of workers compared to some - emphasize <i>some</i> - Pacific Rim factories.</p>

[jeff_s]

<p>Alex, I think the M8 is most enjoyable when you relax and don't take it too seriously. It has no ethics, and it carries no emotional baggage: That part's in your head. If the Leica photos blow you away, maybe it's because the photographers who took them are more than casual weekend / vacation shooters. <br>

No, I don't get special treatment from other photographers. Most just think I'm slumming with an old camera, and who am I to tell them otherwise. </p>

[raymond_tai]

<p>It is only an elite status symbol if people know what it is. These days I doubt your M8 has such recognition outside the photography circle. I am pretty sure the iphone is the status symbol of the day. I like my M8 very much and yes I too had to sell a lot of stuff to afford one but I am in transition right now and cutting down on some MF film stuff anyway. It is a great camera and worth every penny. I have wasted a lot of money over the years on EOS digital but just couldn't put up with that plastic skin tone. The M8 files look very natural and though film is still best it is pretty close for digital.</p>

[raymond_tai]

<p>Second hand M8's are more affordable and there is no IQ improvement for the M8.2.</p>

[tobey_bilek]

<p>Digi cams are never life time. 5/10 is all you will get out of them when repairs will become too expensive or impossible because there are no parts.<br>

A digi is the most expensive type camera you can possibly purchase. Just the film costs go away.</p>

<p>No they are not weather sealed and the camera is trash if water gets inside. Corrosion will start and a repair tech can not see it all and the repair warrantee will cost them pleanty if some is missed. Therefore they price it so high, you will elect not to repair it. This was written up here before by an M8 owner. All consumer electronics are the same.</p>

<p>They really should have been made to military standards with external seals and conformal coatings on circuiit boards. Only the government can afford this.<br>

A better long term investment is a non electronic film Leica and pray film is around.</p>

<p> </p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>"I used one for about 3 weeks. Bottom line. Anything about 640 ASA and it was useless to me."</p>

<p>Nikon is the new leader in low light performance.</p>

[alex_milton]

<p>Thanks for all the responses everyone. Lots of good input for both directions. I really don't care about autofocus or sports photography or anything like that, and I certainly don't care about anything over 10mp. I've been perfectly satisfied with the resolution of my 6mp digital rebel for quite some time. Of course I am thinking about it a lot, but with a $5K camera you better believe I'm going to think about every last aspect.</p>

<p>I got a little snappy back there with CPeter. Even though I only come on here once in a while, I've gotten myself kicked off of photo.net before and I'll try not to let it happen again.</p>

[guido_h]

The M8 - a "lifelong investment"??

 

Fast-forward 10 years ahead: Leica is out of business, Windows 13 has been released, computers don't have USB ports anymore, SD memory cards are no longer being manufactured... if you think this is exaggerated, do PCMCIA cards, serial ports, PX625 batteries and floppy disks ring a bell? Your lifelong investment is already slowly turning into a paperweight as we speak.

 

If you are on your quest for the last camera ever, may I suggest the M6.

[larry_kincaid2]

<p>I hope you're getting the points made here: Don't use your M8 in Iraq or any other war zone. Not only will the camera not make it, you might not make it either. Also, stay out of helicoters, but if you do go there, please learn to spell "helicopter" correctly. Also, stay out of rain forests in tropical downpours (switch to a Nikon D700 and ruin that camera instead). Also, please forget about film costs and development. And finally, do not pack your M8 away in a suitcase to be handed over to the airlines. Hand carry it and defend its location in the overhead bin from people who shove suitcases up there without looking or even being able to see what's up there. [i hold mine until the plane is ready to take off and then put it in the overhead bin.] If you scan your negatives, you also have to factor in the cost of the scanner and especially the extra labor cost of scanning and cleaning up in PS. So, you'll get your film costs back in much less than 5-10 years. If you only print from negatives now, then just keep doing that. In other words, there's much more to shifting to a digital M8 than leaving film behind. You will much more comfortably take more photographs with digital and experiment more and learn more as you go. What's the cost of that? Finally, I have a M6 which I no longer use because of the intollerable hastle of film today (I never went to developing my own B&W film). I still consider my M6 a lifelong camera because I will never sell it. It goes to my son in user condition. My M8 will go there too. I've used my M8 in humid conditions in Cambodia and Viet Nam without any trouble. In fact, I've never had any of the problems with my M8 that others have reported. Zero, and I'm not alone. But it's a digital camera, so there will be new ones coming out some day that you will want to buy. Count on selling your M8 used for "whatever" price you can get. So, you don't swallow the whole amount. Buy a new one when it appears and keep on going. Finally, the greatest lesson of all about Leica: they make the best lenses ever made, but it you have to ask about the cost they're not for you. [For me, after my kids graduated from college . . . so you have to keep your priorities straight. The M8 is cheaper than a red sports car that spills our carbon.] Buy it and enjoy yourself. </p>

[todd_angood]

<p>Alex,<br>

I discovered the fun of rangefinder photography 3 years ago with an M6 ttl. Growing up my dad had an M4 that I always marveled at. The M8, for me, just made my enjoyment of rangefinder photography better because of the instant gratification of digital pictures to see instead of waiting for film to be developed. I also shoot digital SLR stuff with a Nikon D300. But as much as I enjoy it, I still find myself enjoying the relative simplicity of my M8....no auto focus, no VR, no zoom lenses, no complicated menus, etc., etc. If you enjoy rangefinder photography, get the M8 and have fun with it. I have NEVER regretted my purchase of the camera.</p>

[geoff_r1]

<p>It is possible Leica lenses will be usable for many years on future Leica bodies. No digital body is going to last you a life time though. <br>

Film is not that expensive if you do it yourself and bulk load, and while buying a scanner is expensive, it is cheaper than paying a lab to do it in the long run. If you're after a lifetime camera, a mechanical film body, such as an MP or M6, may be a safer bet.</p>

[kivis]

<p>I have had Leica's of all sorts starting with a Leica IIIa, circa 1936, plus Nikons from 1971 onwards, digital and film. To make a long story short I shot mainly a Nikon FM3a with a scad of Nikkor lenses because I enjoy it.</p>

[Rob F.]

I can only think of four people who have come running up to me to talk Leica talk in the past 12 years. It's not a regular event. And none of them were offended. One fellow saw my MP and came running up at the rose evening at the botanical gardens. He said he hadn't seen a Leica in years. He thought Leica was out of business. I assured him I was using the current model. I was walking with an M6 and and M2 at Cape Cod. A fellow identified them and called out the model numbers from 15 feet away! The other two were interested in my IIIc and wanted to comment on what a good camera that was/is. One was in St. Louis, MO; the other was in Auxerre, France.

 

 

Not to worry. As I say, it doesn't happen much. When it does, it's usually fun.

 

 

BTW: for a 5 x 7, 4MP is more than enough! and I can make a nice 7.5 x 10" print with images from my 5MP Digilux II. For 11 x 14, that's when 10MP could come in handy. It also comes in handy for cropping.

 

 

Are you sure you don't just need a D-Lux 4, or the Panasonic equivalent? I'm thrilled with mine. Since I got it, the D200 stays home. So much weight and bulk! I've considered a used M8, as you have, but I have not taken that leap yet. I understand the shutter button has that same notchy feel that I didn't like in the M7. And the framelines are undersized, like the M6/M7/MP. But the image quality might change my mind at some point. Oh, yeah, there's that hassle with IR filters. I'm sticking with what I have for now.