a day in court - an interesting story about a newbie photographer that was sued

[betty_lowrey]

<p>MaryBall Pierson said it very very well.</p>

 

[Member69643]

<p>The differences between now and then, the film days, are enormous. Digital's instant feedback lets people believe that they can take a gazillion shots and like the proverbial monkey at the typewriter, make something beautiful with no thought or effort at all. Folks from all time periods have felt that photography wasn't skill, like painting, but merely a capturing of reality. Push a button and poof! The magic happens. Hardly something you need to learn and study now, is it? Why, anyone should be able to pick up a camera and take good pictures.</p>

<p>We have a perfect storm with digital - consumers who see how easy it is to take "good" pictures, and then assume they are good enough to charge, and the brides, why, they've seen how easy it is to take good pictures too, it's a no-brainer to hire the cheapest guy. It's easy to make good pictures if you take enough of them, right. Why is that guy charging so much? You can make digital images for nothing. Wow, you charge how much? Yes I *know* photographers charge way too much money. I'm glad to see you're so reasonable. Everything can be fixed afterwards.</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>I have zero issues helping out a poster who is taking shots at a friend or relatives wedding, especially when they don't have photography in their budget.........</p>

<p>I have huge issues with someone who just got a digital rebel from their spouse as a gift, they put together a website, make some business cards on their computer, and after googling "wedding photography contract" they find one that looks good, cut and paste into their Word program and now they're ready for business.....now, let's see, I'll post a hundred questions on an internet photography forum and ask questions like: "what should I buy next, a lens or a flash? Do I really need to use flash? Do I really need backup gear? etc., etc...... Oh BTW, when you look at their website, they bill themselves as "specializing" in weddings and advertise their images as "high quality".</p>

<p>I agree with Wolfeye above, we have a "perfect storm with digital - consumers who see how easy it is to take "good" pictures....." I predict we will likely see a higher occurrence of court incidents like the one described by Bob above.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>Like Aimee, I'm not so quick to blame the bride (nor is the judge which is worth some thought to those who do blame her.) Apparently the samples of past work was shown to the unknowing client. While the price was low, its a bad economy and some talented photographers are struggling to get work. Prices are all over the map. Clients aren't experts on photographers. I have professionals quote all sorts of prices for things I don't know much about. Sometimes the quotes a a fair measure of the worth, other times they are just attempts at making big bucks for something that can be done just as well for a lot less. </p>

<p>This isn't an instance where the work was merely not as good as other photographers that might charge more. Its a scenerio where the photographer "totally wrecked" the shoot. Totally wrecked is more than not so good or even substandard. Its a complete failure. Presenting "beautiful samples" and then delivering total failure? Sorry, that's on the photographer all the way.</p>

<p>Now if the photographer had made clear that she was new, warned the client that substandard or even poor work could ensue and memorialized that in the contract (even better saying that risk is factored in the price beings so low), then that's a different story altogether.</p>

<p>People who are not photographers should not be expected to be experts on photographers and their prices. Especially when quality and price ratios lack uniformity.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>Thanks for sharing this story Bob. It should be a valuable example for some people. Congrats on your Porsche victory.</p>

[betty_lowrey]

<p>I think you all make good points, but there is a fine line between someone who thinks this is easy and someone who is really serious about it. You can't treat all newbies the same.</p>

[natalie_l]

<p>I'd just like to add that one of the reasons I (as a newbie) like posting on photo.net and asking somewhat basic questions is that I havent met many great mentors in NY yet willing to share information. I've met a few people that keep info like camera equipment, techniques close to the vest. I would ask people what they shoot with and get obscure answers unless I looked/examined the lens myself. A year ago when I made a few investments in lenses, I did my research online and here. I would go to B+H to get further guidance.<br>

I have recently met a few photographers locally who have been helpful. I think my earlier experiences with local photogs may have been due to me buying a canon 20d in '05 and thinking I can shoot now. That was not the case, but I can see now how that perception is possible.<br>

I did join WPPI and PPA and bought 15 highly recommended books. I took two classes for photography. I've taken 10s of thousands of pictures and continue to learn everyday. I do mostly portraits in my studio and small events. I did a "free" wedding in May for my best friend on a budget who would have not gotten a photog if I didnt shoot it. I had an assistant shoot with me and another photog with experience. I had a contract and insurance... <br>

This was an interesting story and obviously both the bride and newbie photog were to blame. It happens...<br>

This site has been incredible and I'm so grateful for all the advice everyone has given me. If I could bake everyone a batch of my famous red velvet cupcakes as a small token of thanks, I would!!! So if YOU are ever in NYC, please look me up for your special thank you cupcakes.<br>

Natalie</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>Natalie, I see you doing your research and paying your dues. I suspect that you'll develop in to a top notch shooter. I also see that you always revisit your posts and thank everyone for their feedback, time, and comments. Sharing information and helping each other is truly what this forum is all about.</p>

[natalie_l]

<p>Thanks so much David (big smile)!</p>

[mark_t5]

<p>Natalie,<br>

i know what you mean, when i first started i noticed that some photographers are so secretive toward anything.<br>

They treat their equipment setup as if they were national secrets. I never understood what's the deal with them.<br>

Frankly I don't see whats the big deal about which lenses I use in my wedding. If I needed to keep that information secret I must not be very good. That to me would be the only reason why they wouldn't share any info. They are not confident of their own skill and hence afraid of anyone new that might threaten their business. Those are the type of photographers that would probably not last long if you ask me.<br>

anyhow.. my 2 cents.</p>

[savagesax]

Natalie L, can you ship a cupcake overnight to Los Angeles? I'll tell you all of my secret cameras and lenses!

[fotografz]

<p>There are always two sides to every coin.</p>

<p>I wonder if it has occurred to anyone asking established pros for advice that it takes time to do that on a one-to-one basis? Multiply your personal request by an exponentially increasing number of people seeking to get into this field, and it can add up to a substantial amount of time ... at a time when it is getting harder for the established pro to put bread on the table themselves.</p>

<p>The last person I spent time with one-on-one was a potential assistant to help me while my regular assistant/second shooter recovers from giving birth to a baby girl. Typical mom that had shot some family stuff and assisted another wedding shooter once. Didn't want to assist, wanted to shoot. Didn't have the gear, and had absolutely no idea how to use flash what-so-ever ... yet wanted to shoot weddings right away. Was visibly disappointed when I counciled what next steps would have to be to get there. Kept telling me how much everyone loved her photographs (which were at best pedestrian and technically flawed). She now has a web site. This is NOT the only time this has happened to me.</p>

<p>I feel that what time I do have to teach is better spent here on photo.net, and a few other photo sites ... where more people can learn for my experience ... and I can also learn from other's experiences ... even learn from so called newbies.</p>

<p>Not that I won't help someone on a personal level, I just don't have time to do it very often ... and what time I do have is spent with my assistants who know their limits, and show a desire to improve & practice. </p>

 

[natalie_l]

<p>Absolutely Bob! Whats your address? hehe<br>

I would often get simple questions repeated avoided. The time it would take to avoid the answer, they couldve answered it. I understand time is valuable and its hard to spend time with numerous people asking basic questions. I just feel that competition vibe (meanwhile there is no competition at this early stage). <br>

In my day job (I manage an equity fund), I am often asked basic questions, but its part of the process, for junior people to lean on middle mgmt/ or more experience people. I definitely enjoy working with people in various aspects which is probably why I incorrectly assume/hope to receive similar experiences in the photography world.<br>

Marc W. - in your experience, is it harder for established pros to put bread on the table because of the downward shift in economy? or something else? I'm curious...</p>

[robbie_caswell]

<p>If people actually took the time to apprentice under Marc or another established professional there would be far fewer incidents. Many might see the light and avoid weddings all together. The pro I work for routinely and constructively points out holes in my coverage. I think in todays world most would feel belittled and offended by such a critique.</p>

<p>The vast majority of people that think weddings are fun and easy money just have no clue. I mean really have no clue from the basics behind the camera, the untold and undocumented hours required to master the skills of the computer. Don't get me started on the those that operate in the shadows without insurance and proper business credentials.</p>

<p>I learned my lesson. I shot my last wedding (second shooter) last night, and look forward to getting back to the types of photography that interest me...</p>

[john_ashby2]

<blockquote>

<p>No, you do not need a degree or schooling to be good at this. In fact, in could hinder your artistic vision.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No, not for taking pictures, but I'm in the middle of a college-level program which is currently focusing on workflow/editing and the way the pros are describe their workflows in the current threads just make me cringe. It seems like most have learned PS/LR through trial and error and are missing some major points. Not to mention the people who have been doing it for 30 years and don't get the difference between film and digital and shoot JPG because "the camera does the conversion right".</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>Often the most important ingredient in wedding photography is the "people skills".....simply approaching a pro and quizzing him/her about the "how tos" is not likely to be received favorably. The same thing is true when approaching other vendors. It's much more about establishing genuine relationships. I encourage newcomers to establish relationships with local pros....this provides an avenue for mutual learning, emergency backups, and friendships. You can congratulate each other as the business grows and sometimes commiserate with the owner of a local studio who has likely seen more change than he'd like to with the field in the last five years than he saw in the last twenty.</p>

<p>Once you've established personal creditability, I think peers are more than happy to discuss the ends & outs of the equipment & techniques. "How many photographers does it take to change a lightbulb?.................Answer: Five, one to change it and four to explain how they would have done it differently." ;-) BTW, asking a pro what equipment he is using may come across the way that asking a professional chef what brand of pots, pans, and stove he's using. Bottom line, most of the equipment just ain't that big a deal and the statement can come across as discounting the actual skill involved is using whatever equipment was used.</p>

<p>Another benefit that us dinosaurs used to have was the professional camera shop. Sure they would let hobbyists and general consumers through the door, but often you could hang out with the owner looking over the used MF gear that had just come in and frequently you'd run into peers at the counter as well....dropping in and talking shop for 20-30 minutes while browsing was a good time. It was also a great place to rent the latest Dean Collins or Monty training video. B&H has great prices but I do miss the ol' pro shops (in Chicago I had three of them less than a 30 minute drive away...only one remains open). Same general thoughts go with the local pro lab....mines still open but since going digital I've reduced my visits there by more tha 90%.</p>

<p>Joining WPPI and/or PPA will not make anyone a better photographer any more than registering for college will make anyone any smarter. You still need to attend class, listen, take notes and apply the lessons. It's in participation with professional organization that you get the benefit. A newcomer submitting & attending one print competition will completely change how he/she looks at a print. Issues that were once considered minor and "nit picky" now are viewed as significant and substandard. Attending one trade show at a WPPI or PPA convention can and will take more than a day but it will answer all your questions about albums and equipment resources.</p>

<p>All in all, I think most photographers have a passion for the craft and the art and enjoy teaching others. However, remember it's a two-way street. "Ask not what your local pro can do for you, ask what you can do for the local pro".</p>

[karl_knographer]

<p>Hi Bob,<br>

I have a request and tried to email you directly via the link here, but it's not working. Can you email me?</p>

<p>Thanks,<br>

[betty_lowrey]

<p>BTW, asking a pro what equipment he is using may come across the way that asking a professional chef what brand of pots, pans, and stove he's using. Bottom line, most of the equipment just ain't that big a deal and the statement can come across as discounting the actual skill involved is using whatever equipment was used.</p>

<p>- I think this is a really good point, David. I also think it's something that kind of escapes people, even me sometimes. When I look at work like Jessica Claire or Jasmine Star I think "Wow, what is she USING?" first....naively. It's kind of like asking Eric Clapton "What kind of guitar do you play?"...not thinking right away that he could make ANY guitar sound that good!</p>

[fotografz]

<p>To answer your question Natalie ... yes, it is more difficult to make a decent living right now mostly due to the current economic downturn.</p>

<p>Specifically, in geographic areas like mine it's become very difficult ... I'm in the Detroit Metro area, and if you watch the news at all its clear why.</p>

<p>It isn't just weddings that are impacted. Many folks like myself do other types of photography to round out their income base. Those areas of work have really been impacted. </p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>The judge made some nasty comment about the word professional usually means getting a degree</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>This is nonesense!</p>

[natalie_l]

<p>David - I was travelling to Europe and wanted a recommendation for a nice zoom lens and asked what they'd recommend (mid/high range budget). I could tell the person got their back up against the wall. I didnt elaborate initially....<br>

I can understand the comparison to pots, but it was meant as an example where I felt a little resistance when inquiring. I agree and always offer to help those around me, regardless of whether I'm asking advice or not.<br>

I come across people all the time who ask me what type of fund I manage and where we're based out of. I dont hesitate to make recommendations since the tax benefits can vary greatly. I guess it's different strokes for different folks.<br>

Thanks Mark - I was just curious since things vary greatly from state to state.</p>

[ben_fones]

<p>Hey everyone,<br>

This story doesn't surprise me one bit, I have been a professional photographer for three years but have been learning my trade for nearly ten. I’m based in England and I can honestly say that it is no different over here, in this story however what does anger me is that this photographer and ones like her are the same "Professional Photographers" that give the rest of us bad reputations and actually create more problems for us on a wedding day. Yes I do agree with some of the comments that we all had to start somewhere and I was no different, I was lucky after I had achieved my degree I work for a well respected pro for two years and in that time shot over 40 solo weddings but having his guidance and advice was priceless and actually more of an education than the previous seven years of art collage. This story pretty much sums up the attitudes that I have come across from Joe Public in the last three years that "anyone can be a photographer... all you do is press a button .... How hard can it be" $2200 in compensation that’s how hard....<br>

I hope this doesn’t seem too harsh, but I'm always happy to help out anybody with a remote interest in photography after all it is my main passion too, and with out help I wouldn’t be where I am today, but sometimes I think people need to realise it isn't as easy as picking up an expensive piece of equipment. However this is no reason to turn your back on photography if you really are interested in it, just remember not to rush into things and do your research, genuine professionals are always happy to help people who want to learn.<br>

Ben<br>

MODERATOR NOTE: WEBSITE REMOVED AS PER PHOTO.NET POLICY

</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p><em>"Yes I do agree with some of the comments that we all had to start somewhere and I was no different, I was lucky after I had achieved my degree I work for a well respected pro for two years and in that time shot over 40 solo weddings but having his guidance and advice was priceless and actually more of an education than the previous seven years of art collage." -Ben</em><br>

<em></em><br>

This is absolutely true. An apprenticeship of this sort will truly prepare you for what lies ahead and prevents a lot of bumps and lumps from trial & error learning.<br>

Natalie, I don't know what the pro's resistance was about recommending a lens, people here on the forum can and will recommend spending hundreds and/or thousands of other people's money at the drop of a hat. His resistance might have been in part due to a reluctance out of respect for your pocketbook. To make a really good recommendation may have required more than just a few moments of his time.</p>

[garydem]

<p>bob b-<br>

-first and foremost, that photog lady HAD A CONTRACT, make no mistake about that. it was not a written one, but she accepted the $700 to shoot a wedding and the 2 sides agreed on that. the contract was an oral one. but it was a contract.<br>

next, there are far too many shooters who simply buy their dslr and a very short time later think that weddings are a way to pay for my hobby. nothing could be further from the truth. once you accept money for a job you have left the hobby end of photrography; you are now a pro, WITH ALL THAT GOES WITH BEING A PRO. that includes income tax, the absolute need to deliver a fully well shot shoot with NO excuses at all, and all the other pro responsibilities and needs that being a pro entails. among other things you have to know the photographic technique and skills so well that you do not even think about how to take a wedding pic instead you are interested in composition of the scene the technical how to is a foregone thought. and what that lady photog did not get was that unlike a hobby when if you miss a shot you say oh well. there is no such thing as a missed shot in a wedding, because that is the level of performance that the photog is expected to deliver. you cannot just go to the bride later and say that the gear broke or i was not good enough to take the shot or any other excuse. this is what that lady photog found out.<br>

i do not know of any other photrographic situation that is as intense and demanding as a wedding shoot.</p>

[patty_h.]

<p>Bob, i think its very very nice of you to try to put together a place for newbies as a newbie myself I appreciate that!<br>

I have been reading a lot from this forum and it had been amazing, it has helped so much it really has taught me that there are a lot of things I am not ready for such; church wedding, I just do not book any because I would hate to mess someone's wedding, I would just feel terrible!<br>

I do agree with what others were saying about all the help given by pros to newbies might be more harm than good unless they are really serious about photography.<br>

It was a good story Bob, it was an eye opener!</p>