Bride Wants Refund- How do I handle this?

[nathan_gunn]

<p>This is my first post, so I hope I give the pertinent information.</p>

<p>My partner and I do event, art, portrait, and editorial photography. While that is varied, we have avoided weddings. Due to the area we are in, the economy took a huge downturn, and we began booking very small weddings. Our portfolio shows our style, and all of our weddings are outdoor, informal, and with under 50 guests. As such, we are most certainly "budget" wedding photographers.</p>

<p>In February, we booked a wedding for June 26th. The bride and groom both signed the contract and gave us a retainer of $250. In the contract, we stated we would have a pre-wedding meeting two weeks before the wedding. On Saturday, May 23rd, we received a phone call from the bride. This was the first contact we received from her since booking. She had both email and phone contacts. We returned the call Tuesday morning as we had been at a wedding and then in the hospital until then. She told us since she had not heard from us (again, one phone call, no emails) she had decided to book another photographer. She had called us late saturday evening, on a holiday weekend, and we called her first thing Tuesday morning!</p>

<p>She began nicely enough, asking for her retainer back. Since we had turned down several weddings for that, we refused, but offered to apply it elsewhere or still shoot the wedding. If we do manage to book a wedding we will refund her. She wrote back asking for half of the retainer, and again we refused, reasserting the contract. Were work not so scarce, and we had not lost other business due to her, we would not be such sticklers.</p>

<p>She has already told us where the court would be (these emails have happened after 5) and decided that we had an obligation to contact her even though she had not contacted us, and we would have anyway, this week, to set up the meeting scheduled for two weeks from now. How do we proceed?</p>

<p>Obviously we are concerned about our reputation, but this is not our usual field, and we do have a solid one with repeat customers elsewhere. All of our other brides have been beyond thrilled with our services. Furthermore, we signed the contract in another state, and the wedding was to take place in another state. I am not sure exactly where the jurisdiction would lay.</p>

<p>Thank you for reading this. I am pasting in the relevant part of our contract.</p>

<p>Cancellation<br /><br />Photographer reserves the time and date for Client and will not make any other reservations for that time. For this reason, the retainer of $250 is non refundable, even if Client cancels the order for photography, or changes the date of the event. However, if the Photographers are able to contract another event of at least equivalent value for the canceled date, the retainer will be refunded.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Nathan -</p>

<p>Welcome to the world of wedding photography. </p>

<p>Typically I call or email the bride 2 weeks before the wedding, then again a couple of days before the wedding. Just to confirm that everything is still "On". I typically don't call or email before then unless there is an issue (i.e. their location doesn't have a wedding booked that day, officiant is being difficult or I can't find the location)</p>

<p>Whether or not you give a refund is up to you. I'm not a Lawyer or Judge, but I would need to see the whole contract to determine if you had breached it in some way. If for example you had language in the contract that said you would contact the couple at some point prior to the wedding... (without mentioning the 2 weeks prior) then you may be found to be in breach and she would be entitled to her retainer back.</p>

<p>It comes down to:<br>

1. She says she is willing to take this to court - Are you willing to call that bluff?<br>

2. How much damage can she do to your business?<br>

3. What's it worth to make her go away?</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[nathan_gunn]

<p>Hi David and thank you for the welcome.<br>

<br />Actually, I could have explained the two week contact better. It says that we will contact her two weeks before to arrange for a final consultation if they want one, not that the meeting will be two weeks before. <br />I do not want to sound like a jerk, but the weddings we have booked now are the only ones we will ever do in the field,our client base is actually fairly stable aside from the art sales we were supplementing, and she is not from the area and is moving out of the area almost immediately after the wedding, so we are not very concerned about damage to our business.<br>

<br />We are willing to go to court, should she go that route. I do not want to do so but will if necessary. <br />Should we cease communication aside from "official" channels? Do you know which state we would actually be in for court should it come down to that?<br>

<br />I apologize for seeming, and probably being, incredibly stubborn. It isn't my intention, it has just been a long night.</p>

[peter_ferling]

<p>If you so stated in the contract... however, in her situation, she's nearing D-day and nervous. Calls you to make sure things are ok and still on, (without knowing the details of her message, it's hard to tell her original intentions). I'm also not sure if she knew you were away for a few days, etc. I assume she just left a voice message, did not hear back from you and panicked. Maybe she found a freebie or cheaper photog. Don't know that either. But two days can be an eternity from her perspective, and she's likely too busy with other issues at this point to bother calling you a second time. We live in a connected world of mobile communications...</p>

<p>How much will that $250 cost you in long run if you push the issue?</p>

[nathan_gunn]

<p>Well, the thing is, since it was memorial day weekend I am not sure how she booked another photographer. I left this out hoping to stick to "provable" facts, but she mentioned at the meeting that she had a friend who was a photographer and may not be able to make it to the wedding. Then she calls one day, in the middle of a long weekend, and has managed to find another photographer, meet them, and book them, in June two days after the original call? She did state she had already paid them. It seems a little off, but as I said, I can't prove that.<br>

<br />I'm really not heartless. There are a lot of situations in which I would let this slide, but (also not in my original post because I didn't think it mattered) in August I am getting a bone marrow transplant and will be unable to work for quite some time. What seems like an insignificant amount of $250, plus the lost wedding I could have booked, actually adds up in light of no health insurance and a few months of unemployment.<br>

<br />Still, were it not for how she approached it and the distinct feeling of being taken advantage of, I would probably not be quite so adamant about contractual terms.</p>

[jennifer_r2]

<p>Your reasoning seems completely logical in that you booked the date, turned down work, and will only refund the deposit if you can secure other work. From the available information, we can't tell which state would have jurisdiction (assuming US), and what the particular laws might be about canceling a contract. I have to wonder if someone would really go to the expense of filing in small claims court (it's at least $50 in my area) for the possibility of gaining $250?</p>

<p>However, when I was reading I noticed that you mentioned the wedding was taking place in another state and that you signed the contract in another state and I was wondering if you have a business license to operate in that state? If you don't, and are required to have one by that state, even if you prevailed in a court case, she might be able to stick it to you by reporting you to state regulatory agencies for operating without a business license. Could result in fines. </p>

<p>Obviously, it will depend on the state you are operating in, you may already have it covered, or that state might not require it for intermittent or occassional work. I only thought of it b/c I live in a state that borders two others and am currently working on my business plan, and from what I have learned thus far, one of the states would probably require full out business licenses from state and county, tax payments, and that would also establish a "nexus" in the state meaning I would have to collect sales tax for anything purchased over the internet in that state....it never ends. That is definately having an impact in how I plan on where my customers might come from and the impact of crossing state lines to work.</p>

<p>Hope this didn't give you something else to worry about, just something to consider when deciding if it is worth the aggravation to go to court, possible win, and still get screwed. Morally you seem in the right, aggravation wise? only you can decide.</p>

<p>I would make sure that all future communication is in writing, and I would get clarification in writing as to whether she has canceled your services. If you don't show up at the wedding (based on a phone call) and then she claims her wedding was ruined b/c no photographer, the problem (and potential litigation) may be compounded. Good Luck!</p>

[peter_ferling]

<p>Well, as I already wrote, she may have found a last minute deal. People do that. I've turned down a few offers for the same reason, as it's simply unprofessional.</p>

<p>Personally, $250 to me is a small amount for all the efforts of litigation. However, I would seek qualified legal counsel.</p>

<p>I'm sorry to hear about your health issues. That is more important than any of this. I hope that improves and your able to move on. Take care.</p>

[dan_south]

<p>I don't think I'd waste time arguing with someone over 250 bucks. The telephone bill would cost more than that before it's all said and done. Court? It probably costs my lawyer $250 to fill up his Lincoln Navigator. Not worth it.</p>

<p>If she goes around town telling other brides and bridal shops that you (in her opinion, of course) scr3wed her out of two-fifty, is that good for business?</p>

<p>Actually, I hope lots of hard-nosed photogs take a firm stance on issues like this. It makes the easy-going guys look that much better.</p>

 

[nathan_gunn]

<p>Jennifer,<br>

Thank you so much for your response. You did bring up a good issue, and I am very glad I did think to check on that before signing the contract. Otherwise, it would be very tricky. Also, thank you for telling me to get the cancellation in writing. I absolutely would not have thought of that. </p>

<p>Peter,<br>

Thank you for your well wishes. I agree with you. Under normal circumstances, the amount might be small. I can even empathize with her getting nervous, but it still does not make her actions right (which I am not implying you said they were). I am not going to take more than the financial hit the lost booking has already cost me because she wanted a better deal.</p>

<p>Dan,<br>

I am not going to argue with you. I already addressed your points in earlier replies which you did not read. I will say this, though. I am glad $250 is no big deal for you. For my family and I, it is a month's worth of groceries. The lost booking was enough for a mortgage and car payment. It is not always chump change, and sometimes standing up for your rights is not being hard-nosed without reason.</p>

[cnorman27]

<p>After reading your post and most of the other comments that have been made in reply to this, I would like to give my personal advice.</p>

<p>I know how important $250 can be. For me it's a car payment, or groceries, or a payment on our RV Trailer. I will not tell you that is too small of an amount to worry about.</p>

<p>However, that being said, I would gracefully apologize for any miscommunication that may have occurred, give her back the $250 and try to move on. I know that this seems wrong to you, if I were in the situation, I would probably feel compelled to “stick it to her” and take her to court. Others that have mentioned that the court costs would be more than the $250 you would gain are probably right.</p>

<p>I know that the option of returning the $250 seems like it’s undoable but you could potentially hurt your business in ways you can’t possibly imagine. If the bride goes telling people how bad of a person you are over this, the bad news will spread like a disease. People tend to tell all the people they meet about bad experiences they had with a business but tell very few about the good ones. </p>

<p>Again, I don’t want to discredit your need for this $250 and I understand the principle seems totally wrong but I think your best option is to bow out of the argument and try to leave her happy. It may not be possible for her to leave the situation happy but I have seen it happen in my own experiences. I have had to repo stuff from people and left them with a smile on their faces.<br>

Hope that this advice helps.</p>

[HuskyMason1]

<p>Meet her half way and refund half of the money as she suggested...spare any chance of a bad reference.</p>

[eric merrill]

<p>Nathan:</p>

<p>I understand where you're coming from. Let me try to look at this from the bride's perspective.</p>

<p>You are new to the wedding field. (I'm assuming you told her this.)</p>

<p>Three months ago, you took $250 from her to secure the date. As you mentioned, $250 is a large sum of money. Three months go by. Planning a wedding is very stressful. You haven't called lately. You haven't contacted the bride lately. You took $250 three months ago, and no contact since. The bride gives up and calls you. And waits. And waits some more. On the 4th day, you call back. This close to the wedding, that's an eternity!</p>

<p>I'm not a judge. From what I know and have been told, most judges tend to side with consumers if there is any doubt. Most contracts are not iron-clad. There is always room for doubt. If you let it go to court, you may be out $250 and lots of time. If you settle now for half, you are out $125. You both made mistakes. Neither one of you is entirely at fault, and neither is entirely without blame. $125 for each seems fair to me, as an impartial observer.</p>

<p>In fact, I wouldn't look at it as being out $125. I'd look at it as cheap education. Most seminars are going to cost you much more than that. That $125 has bought you an education in dealing with nervous brides. Don't wait for them to contact you. Maintain contact.</p>

<p>I would have returned her call on Sunday after the wedding was over. Unless I myself were the one in the hospital, I should have a couple minutes of waiting that I could have used to return her call.</p>

<p>Eric</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>if the Photographers are able to contract another event of at least equivalent value for the canceled date, the retainer will be refunded.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

When the small claims judge asks you what evidence you have to showing you made a reasonable effort to re-book the cancled date, what will be your answer?</p>

[starvy]

<p>i think she got a better deal than you elsewhere. if your contract is watertight, then you have nothing to fear but your reputation. not sure if half refund would work now that she already dislikes you. even a full refund would get her to talk about how she scared you with courts and made you refund the money.<br>

going forward, it might be an idea to contact the bride or groom at least a month before the actual date.</p>

[BrianS1664879711]

<p>At this point it is difficult to ignore the conversations via voicemail, email, etc... but you should deal with the cancellation in the same manner as you did the original contract: in writing.</p>

<p>You made the couple a few good offers already. Reiterate them in writing and make them choose the option they desire in writing. With regard to refunding if you secure a new booking on that day... specify the specific date you will determine if you have a new booking or not.</p>

<p>All of the begging/threats from the couple are probably huff-and-puff. They can't be serious about going to court over $250 and you shouldn't live in fear that they are going to ruin your reputation. Giving in to them, since you appear to have discussed the way in which your contract is written, is basically giving in to an extortionist.</p>

<p>One of the interesting things I've noticed in all of these "the couple changed their mind and cancelled" postings is that the reason for the cancellation is rarely stated. Readers are asked to comment or provide advise based on assumptions of whether it is cold feet that led to the cancellation of the wedding, or the couple finding a cheaper vender, or them finding "an Uncle Bob with a nice camera"... or a sudden case of incurable cancer. Whatever the reason might be is left to the imagination. Except for the last situation, I'd offer the remedies specified in the contract AS THE CONTRACT WAS WRITTEN AND AGREED TO. I personally doubt any one or two bridezillas has enough influence to drive any talented photog with good business practices out of the business.</p>

[nathan_gunn]

<p>I do apologize all if I seem argumentative. I realize every photographer has their own way of handling matters, and it is up to the individual what is right for them and their business. I am not refunding beyond what was offered, the contract was drawn up by a reputable attorney in the field of business law (in exchange for a family portrait, ironically), and I know many will disagree. My advice sought is more how to handle communications (ie. stop them, etc) and if anyone knows about the jurisdiction. That being said, I do not mind the other discourse, just wanted to explain why I appear so stubborn.</p>

<p>Chris,<br>

Thank you for your advice. She would actually be the one having to pay for filing ($150 for this type of case in our jurisdiction).<br>

Eric,<br>

I do want to correct something, though, and that is the time frame. I looked at my calls and the time frames, and it was not 4 days. She called at 9:30 pm on Saturday. I called her back at 8:15 on Tuesday morning. My phone is actually a business number that I have the messages forwarded to my cell and it was memorial day weekend. At best, it was 2 1/2 days. I was the one in the hospital. In fact, I went immediately after the wedding, as I was seriously ill the night before. </p>

<p>I do respectfully disagree. She knew when we would be in contact. It was both in the contract and discussed at the meeting. I shoot very, very small weddings. I tell them to call me at any point before the initial meeting if they have any questions whatsoever. All except this bride I have gotten to know and even become friends with over the course of it. Plain and simple, she broke the contract because she got something for free (I am not getting into pricing, but I can promise she did not get a better deal), and now I am expected to pay the price.</p>

<p>John,<br>

You brought up a very good point. I contacted all of those who looked for my service on that date before to be certain they did not need a photographer, and have called to place ads both in the newspapers and bridal shops for this particular date. It is the only date I have available before my transplant, so proving it was for this date is easy.</p>

<p>Starvey,<br>

Were I to be continuiing with weddings your advice is wonderful. Luckily, everyone else we have booked has been wonderful. We have been in constant contact- and mostly not even about the weddings! <br>

<br />Brian,<br>

Thank you very much for the advice. I will definitely get those things, and offer the remedies, in writing. I'll be sure to send it registered letter, as well, and never would have thought to give them a specific date when I will know if I am able to rebook.</p>

<p>Thank you for seeing it for what it really is- extortion. I'm a reasonable guy, but I just do not see the point of a contract if it is broken for anyone who decides it does not apply to them. I can guarantee you that if I broke one of the points concerning my obligations, they would most certainly not allow it to drop. In this area, I am not worried about my reputation. It is very small, I have already booked all the weddings I will be shooting (with the possible exception of one filling this date), and she is a newcomer a couple of hours away who, coincidentally, is leaving soon. </p>

<p>I hope I did explain her reasons as well as I understand them myself. If it were incurable cancer, I probably would be refunding. ;)</p>

[art_tatum]

<p>This one is easy, you keep the retainer just like the contract <strong>she signed</strong> states. You will not win any goodwill by returning all or half of the retainer.<br>

I don't understand the back-off approach some of you have suggested. If we as photographers hold our clients feet to the fire of the contracts they sign I conjecture there would be less brides trying to wiggle out of an agreement. This is a business.</p>

[kat_moon]

<p>Nothing further to add but one thing: the contact page on my website reads as follows: "in most cases, I will respond to your email within 24 hours - please allow up to 48 hours over the weekend as this is when most weddings take place ... " Some sort of note about your "availability policy"/ how long it will take you (either personally or the studio) to get back to them might not be a bad idea. As somebody else already said, with a wedding 2 weeks away, even 2 days will seem like eternity, even over a holiday weekend. Under normal circumstances, I'd say "stick to your guns" but only you know which one of the two scenarios discussed previously will affect your mental and physical health more adversly - so listen to your gut and go with that. Best of luck.</p>

[peter_wang6]

<p>I'm with Art on this one. Anyone who thinks that refunding the retainer is a kind of silver bullet to stop the client from badmouthing you to everyone they know, is not in touch with reality. The client has already made up her mind. The photographer is already on her s**t list, and not because she didn't get a call back right away. The very fact that they decided to cancel is a demonstration of lack of respect for the contract and services offered, and very likely reflects her belief that she got a better deal elsewhere. Truth is, the client would probably have to be paid off to keep quiet about that.</p>

<p>I don't understand such a spineless approach to dealing with clients. The quality of your work, and your level of professionalism, is what gives you leverage. If you take photos like nobody's business, you won't have to beg for it. Then again, if prospective clients aren't educated enough to know the difference between some random hobbyist who thinks he's qualified because he's got a gary fong lightsphere hanging off his flash unit, versus a pro with the portfolio to back it up...well, you really want to deal with that client anyway? I know times are hard but times are *always* hard. Seriously, you'll burn out way faster if you go around begging for scraps.</p>

<p>And that's why I don't do weddings--because I'm that random hobbyist (but I don't have or want a lightsphere). I have no illusions about what I am capable of, or for that matter, the kind of shooting environment I prefer.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>Anyone who thinks that refunding the retainer is a kind of silver bullet to stop the client from badmouthing you to everyone they know, is not in touch with reality.</em></p>

<p>I agree that the badmouthing concern is overrated except in small communities or other situations where a large portion of the potential client base will be exposed to it. That being said, you assume that a client deciding to cancel or breach a contract a contract will result in the same level of backlash as tends to occur when the photographer in that scenerio actually goes and enforces the contract. This to produce different and harsher reactions altogether. This is not hard to figure out as the first scenerio does not contain a situation where the photographer legally and fiscally challenges the client. That is the actual "reality".</p>

[bill_clark___minnetonka_mi]

<p>In nine years doing this full time I've had two cancellations. Both times I've immediately refunded the "retainer" or "deposit" whatever you want to call it.</p>

<p>I spend little or no time dealing with this situation. I move on. I can have several meetings or do other productive projects with the time that it could take resolving a situation like this. And if I fought it or used my pointer finger to show them it's in the contract is that the best solution for my business? Or for the client? What I need are more hrs. to the day.</p>

<p>To me, spending time and getting upset and getting the client upset isn't worth it. Sure, I have to swallow my pride but it's a policy I've got with my business and I review it with all of my clients during my first face to face consultation.</p>

<p>Just what I do with my business. Clients seem to like the policy even though only two have exercised the option to obtain a refund.</p>

[jonj]

<p>The deposit is to hold the date that's what I explain to the B&G. You held the date and in reality she owes you for the additional money you lost by her bailing out. For example let's say you were going to charge her $1,500 to shoot the wedding and she gave you $250 by not going forward with your services she cost you $1,250 tell her you can counter sue her for that amount. Explain to her that every Saturday during the wedding season is a day you expect to make money and she has fooled around and cost you that day!</p>

[brianna_stockdale]

<p>I'm not a photographer, but actually a bride myself, and will be beginning to dedicate myself to my own photography when our wedding date passes. (I was searching for a different post but yours caught my eye.)<br>

From a consumers perspectective, I think it's important that you stick with your contract and let her take you to court if she even does. $150 filing fee for a $250 deposit, and it doesn't even sound like there was anything wrong with the contract in the first place? If it were me -- not saying I would do that -- but the time, money, and stress it would take to take someone to small claims court for a contract that *I* broke in the first place is going to be more than I would want to undergo, especially just after enjoying my wedding. Coming from someone who is taking a company (not wedding related -- computer related) to small claims court for a couple thousand dollars for a mistake they clearly admit was there own, even that is a huge headache and makes me want to tear my hair out sometimes. And that's just because I have to make sure all the legalities are in order.<br>

The only thing I would add is that to a bride, two days seem like forever. While trying to securing our location, the person we needed to speak to in order to make the appointment with the event coordinator and it took us two weeks for this person to call us back. Obviously the situation is different, but even as a completely rational person, I was practically twitching and showering with the phone by three days after leaving the message. Brides become crazy people, especially the closer to the date as everyone already knows, so if you ever do weddings in the future having another person to give the bride a courtesy call if you're unable to speaks volumes about yourself. Even in a simple, "Hi I'm so-and-so calling for [photographer name]. He/She was doing a wedding and became ill and had to be hospitalized, but wanted to reassure you that they will call you tomorrow/in two days/etc."<br>

Unfortunately in my own experiences with business people in various professions, I've come across a lot of people who seem great, and have been recommended by many others (like the computer company I mentioned above) but for some reason just got lazy or didn't do a good job at their profession for unknown reasons. And for most brides, they're already paranoid that <i>something</i> will definitely go wrong, so they tend to overreact when something like what you're describing happens. Good luck with your health issues and with your proceedings with this bride! :-)</p>

[cathy_and_david_bock]

<p>Awesome perspective Brianna. :-D Thanks for the insight! Our feeling is the same as yours and we'd hope our brides would be as understanding should this ever come up. :) Your vendors will be super-lucky to get ya! :-D</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em> let's say you were going to charge her $1,500 to shoot the wedding and she gave you $250 by not going forward with your services she cost you $1,250 tell her you can counter sue her for that amount.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

The first problem with this suggestion is that it is the contract terms that will govern unless there are grounds to render the relevent terms unenforcable. There is nothing said here which suggests this position is consistent with the contract.</p>

<p>The second problem is that this position asserts that one is entitled to the entire contract price in the event of breach. Assuming the contract were silent as to payment in the event of cancelation or was unenforcable, then the default contract breach rules for damages will apply. The ordinary standard is that damages are only for reliably measurable lost profit, not the contract price itself.</p>

<p>The third problem is that making incorrect and overly ambitious claims like this tend to promote further clashes with the client which are costly themselves.</p>

<p>This is why its crucial to get contracts screened by an attorney instead of asking us on the internet about the legality of the situation. When a scenerio like this comes up, one can ask about business sensibilities rather and eschew the wild legal theories.</p>

<p>As to the position that the contract terms should always be follwed by the photographer and that refunds should not be given if not required under the contract, that is a personal and business decision on the part of the photographer. The contract is designed to memorialize the terms the parties agree to and protect thee parties interests. If an aggrieved party chooses to not to enforce the terms, that's their business, figuratively and literally. Its not a desecretion of some sacred instrument or something.</p>