645 for photography student?

[matthew_delphenich]

<p>Hi all, this is my first post here so please bear with me! Im starting my first full year of being a photography major. My first class next semester will be a color film class, and we are able to use any body that we would like. With B+W film at lest, I was often dissatisfied with the resolution and graininess of my prints (Tri-x @ 8x10). I'm fairly sure that in this next class, we will be printing even larger. I'd like to get into MF sooner or later, and I'd like to buy into a system that I can be happy with for my whole school career.</p>

<p>After a bit of research, it seems that a 645 body would be the most similar (handling-wise) to a 35mm body. My question is, will I be sacrificing a noticeable amount of resolution for this usability? There are plenty of great 6x6 and 6x7 bodies which would produce very nice images, but the overall consensus seems to be that they are hardly portable formats. (Reasonable) portability and ease of use are important for the style of shooting that I like, but since I'm so green with the whole world of MF, I'm unsure of what to expect.</p>

<p>Will a 645 negative at, say, up to ISO 400, allow me to make high quality prints up to 11x14? If not, would a 6x6/6x7 be significantly better?</p>

[wishingwellphotos]

<p>I have a Pentax 645 system. I love mine. They are also inexpensive to obtain. Look on ebay. MF is so different because it depends on what you are going to shoot. I dont like 6x6 format because it is to square for me. But if you shoot weddings, its a great format. i shoot landscapes so i like a rectangle format. I have my negs scanned at a local photo shop, take them home and print them out on my 13x19 hp printer and there great. I wish you good luck. john</p>

[greg_jones1]

<p>Matthew-<br>

You should easily be able to make 11X14 of high quality from 645 negs. Use the new TMY ISO 400 Kodak film and you will be impressed.<br>

I have Hasselblad and Mamiya 6X7 cameras. I rarely print square full frame 6X6 images (for enlargements) so the Hasselblad effectively becomes a 645 camera. 6X7 is nice and yes it has more "enlargeability" simply because it is bigger. I would recommend you pick one of the great 645 cameras out there (Pentax, Mamiya, etc.) and enjoy the bigger-than-35mm negative with a level of automation not generally found in the larger formats. <br>

As to portability, one of my 6X7 cameras is the Mamiya 7II. I find I carry it most often simply because it is lighter and more compact than my RZ. However it is pricey.....<br>

Good luck with your photography classes and my one word of advice: don't get too wrapped up in the equipment side of things, i.e., always looking for a better camera, better lens, better film, etc. etc. Start with one lens, one film, and master that. You can experiment from there, but learn how to get the most out of your tools first.</p>

[steve_parrott]

<p>I'm using a Mamiya 645 AFD and like it very much. I began with the 645 E which is much lower cost, though fully manual and lacking some of the build quality of the more expensive cameras. Prints up to 11 x 14 are absolutely no problem. My Sister in law has a 20 x 24 portrait of herself on the wall taken with the 645E and Fuji Pro 160S film. If you are going to shoot ISO 400 film, yeah, you may have to cut back on the print size some. If you want REALLY smooth, try the new Kodak Ektar 100 film in 120 format. Absolutely beautiful and smooth as silk! 6 x 6 and 6 x 7 are certainly bigger, but not as big a jump from 645 as 645 is from 35mm. To me at least, the handling advantages of 645 outweigh the smaller negative compared to 6 x 7. The Mamiya 7II rangefinder is certainly an option also, but the expense and disadvantages of the rangefinder system have to be considered also. So bottom line, yes, I think you will be totally satisfied with 645.</p>

[jack_welsh]

<p>The 645 is a great format. Have 645, 6x6, 6x7 and 6x9. One point about comparing a 645 neg to a 6x6. Is that to make an 8x10, 16x20, the negative area on the 6x6 is the same as the 645. So, you don't get a better 16x20 from the 6x6, than you do with the 645.</p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>I agree - you can easily make excellent 11x14 prints from 645 negs. As for which system, you may also want to look at the Bronica ETRSi. THe lenses have leaf shutters so they flash sync at all speeds. Excellent optics and inexpensive, too.</p>

[tree]

<p>FWIW I second Steve's comments on the Mamiya 645. My first MF camera was a 645E and some of my favourite shots are made with it. It isn't a tank link my RB67, but it gets the job done and can be had very inexpensively.</p>

 

[stp]

<p>FWIW I second John Beard's comments on the Pentax 645. I think it's the best value in MF cameras, and the image quality with Pentax lenses is outstanding. I do my own scanning (Nikon Super Coolscan 8000). I also have a Mamiya 7II system, but I wouldn't recommend this to you at the moment; the IQ is unmatched, but it's much more difficult to use, and the lens selection on the long end is very limited.</p>

[bueh]

<p>The 645 format is very, very big and delivers outstanding quality. Sure, 6x6 and 6x7 are bigger, but it takes a lot of practice to get the most of these formats and archieve an image quality improvement that is noticeably better than the 645 format. Most of the time this means tripod, mirror lock-up and a cable release. Without these tools/techniques there is more often a sharpness loss than gain (mirror slap and camera shake are serious issues with these big cameras).</p>

<p>My recommendation for fast and fun medium format is the M645 Super (or a later model) with both the AE prism and motor grip. This set-up really feels and operates like a big 35mm SLR and the lens and accessory line-up is huge. And the option to change viewfinders (i.e., to use a waist-level finder for the most accurate critical focusing) is really neat.</p>

<p>However, for slow, tripod-bound work having a 6x7 camera at hand is really nice if you need the best in image quality and least of graininess. Of course you can shoot an even bigger format, but there are either very limited camera systems available or these will be expensive and very big/heavy or uncomfortable to use.</p>

[mountainvisions]

<p>I just got a Pentax 645N, so bear in mind my comments are more from my research than from experience. I've put a total of 5 rolls through it, and I am waiting to get them back.</p>

<p>It's actually not bigger (surface area wise) than my K10D with grip. Which means it's smaller than most pro DSLRs. It does weight about 8oz more than my K10D with grip and 2 batteries, not sure how it compares to say a D3 or 1D, but I'd say it's a bit heavier or on par with my D1H.</p>

<p>However, the shape is odd, so it seems bigger, and it weights a lot more. You can cut some weight off with Lithiums rather than alkalines. You get about 300 rolls from a set of lithiums so I don't think the extra $5 will kill you as a student.</p>

<p>Anyway, weight aside, I find the 645N just as portable as any other SLR. It's not too hard to hand hold because it has a lot of surface area to grip. The 200mm f/4 lens is actually quite compact, and I'll be adding an adapter to the DSLR to use is as a travel prime, and also cut down on lenses if I take both systems.</p>

<p>With the 55mm f/2.8 it fits in the same space in my bag as the K10D (without grip), and actually fits better.</p>

<p>As far as the negative size, the 6x6 or 6x7 is MUCH bigger in terms of total surface area. I believe it's almost 2X the size. So your IQ should be significantly better. However, with all photography it's a trade off of many things. I went 645 for portability, and a fairly significant boost over 35mm film. 645 should rival or exceed my APS DSLR as well with a quality film.</p>

<p>What you could do if you went Pentax is hedge your bets. Get a 645 or 645N, and add mostly 67 lenses to it. Then if you decide you want 67 weight and quality, you can always go that route without a huge reinvestment.</p>

<p> </p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>The 645 format will work fine - Mamiya 645 MF is the cheapest option. 6x6 or 6x7 will look better but the lenses are more expensive and in the case of the RZ67 much less portable. If you do want a larger negative look at Bronica. A quick look at KEHs prices should help you decide but the key issue will be lens price if you are on a budget.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>Pentax 645. I make 11X14s from it all the time. Very durable, and easy to use. I have the oldest version. I think I saw one 645 body advertised for less than $200 at KEH. I recommend the 80-160mm zoom and the 35mm wide angle. Those are daily carry items for me. I have nothing but shameless praise for my Pentax 645 rig.</p>

<p>I recommend the adapters also. I don't have a 67 kit, but I use a 645 Adapter K; it lets me use the medium format lenses on my small format Pentax cameras (K1000 and K200D). I imagine the 67 Adapter K does similarly well. </p>

<p>Pretty much can't lose with a Pentax 645 kit. </p>

<p>Currie's work will probably answer your questions about negative resolution in plain language. If you are concerned about the negative size thing, look up Neil Currie. He had a good comparison on his personal website examining the differences between 35mm, 645 and 6X7. Included a blind review of prints and some mathematical comparisons. As good as any as I've ever seen. http://nealcurrie.com/t-comp0.html</p>

[gary_watson]

<p>Whether Pentax, Bronica, or Mamiya, 645 is a great gateway drug to larger and more expensive medium format systems. For now, 645 will quickly absorb you and your money once you get a nice 8x10 and lay it next to a 35mm print. There's lots to learn with MF, so think of film/development/printing costs as tuition. Enjoy it and don't hesistate to blow as much film as you can afford.</p>

[Mike Gammill]

<p>When cropping 6x6 to get an 11x14 it's very close to printing directly from 645. If you want an SLR that handles more like a 35mm SLR, the Pentax 645 or Mamiya 645 will fit the bill, along with a wide selection of interchangeable lenses. The Hasselblad and other 6x6 also offer various lenses, but more expensive. If you prefer a waist level finder and don't want to worry about vertical or horizontal orientation, then you should go with 6x6. An inexpensive into to 6x6 would be to pick up a used Yashicamat, Rolleicord, or Minolta Autocord twin lens reflex. They are fixed lens cameras. Another alternative it the Mamiya C33/330/22/220 series of twin lens reflexes that offer interchangeable lenses for far less than a Hasselblad. Finally, for 6x6 with SLR viewing, but less than Hasselblad, look into the Bronica SQ system.</p>

[matthew_delphenich]

<p>Thanks everybody so much for all of your help. I think my decision is pretty clear now, certainly a lot easier than it was before. Your answers were exactly what I was looking for to assist my thought process. I think the best choice for my needs would definitely be a 645 (now I'm thinking the Pentax 645N, but that might be on the pricey side for me). I shouldn't forget to mention that after this semester, I'll be taking a class dedicated to large format view cameras. As far as I'm concerned, for my needs the 645 is a much better "middle step" between 35mm and LF than would be 6x7.</p>

[matthew_delphenich]

<p>Upon even further investigation, it seems that many agree that the Pentax 645N is really worth the step up in price. Specifically, they say that the viewfinder and overall ergonomics (buttons instead of dials, no AEL, etc) of the original 645 are somewhat inferior to the 645N. On KEH, the 645N is around $200 more than its predecessor. I'd love to be able to stick with the better bargain, but I don't want to overlook the supposedly better product. Would anyone with hands-on experience agree or disagree with this? Are the flaws of the 645 really tough to get around? Thanks again.</p>

[charles_wood]

<p>You can always learn to work around ergonomic shortcomings (Pentax 645 vs 645n). That said, the 645n is probably the way to go if your budget allows.<br>

As discussed, some people believe the 645n is quicker and more intuitive in terms of control operation. I would agree. It has a simple and elegant control layout that lends itself to rapid changes.<br>

You can use non-autofocus lenses on the 645n and the viewfinder display will visually alert you for best focus when you are manually focusing. This is particularly good for middle age/senior eyes (not yet a problem for you, hopefully).<br>

With low grain film, transparency or negative, you can make sharp enlargements far larger than 11x14, if you desire.<br>

Pentax MF 645 and 67 lenses are superb. Some primes, such as the wide angle 645 MF 35mm, in tests reports has consistently outperformed other manufacturer equivalents by a substantial margin.<br>

At the present time Pentax bodies and lenses are a bargain on ebay and other places. The situation may change with lenses if Pentax comes through on the promise of a Pentax digital medium format body that will accept existing lenses.</p>

 

[jack_welsh]

<p>The 645 doesn't really have any flaws. Have the Mamiya 645 Pro, the C220 TLR, RB67 and the Universal. The 6x6, you can shoot now and then decide later if want a vertical or horizontal photo. The 645, you really need to get the image in the viewfinder the way you want the final print to be. Also, you have more leeway with the 6x6 if you want a square photo, etc. But, as I mentioned ealier. To make a standard 8x10, 4x5, 16x20 print, the image area of the 6x6 would be the size of a 645 negative. So, if the other factors are equal. The lens quality, same film, etc. Then, you won't get a better 8x10 with the 6x6, than you would with the 645. What the 645 gives you is more shots per roll. A great price saver. Also, I will be able to buy more lenses for my 645, than for my RB, due to cost. I would agree that if you like waistlevel viewing. Then, a 6x6 would be a great ideal. Also, the C220 , and the RB are better to use on a tripod than the 645. When, shooting a 645 on a tripod, think using a 35 slr. Putting the camera on it's side for verticals, just like with a 35 SLR.</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>You should compare the prices of a mamiya 645 Pro with the Ae Prism and the Pentax 645 options and make your decision on price and features. Either of the two options will work great but you may find the Mamiya cheaper as more were produced. If you plan to use flash you will need the Mamiya Pro TL body for TTL capability.</p>

[mountainvisions]

<p>Matthew,</p>

<p>I was on the fence. Price of 645 for essentially same image quality or better ergonomics and a finished professional product of the 645N.</p>

<p>I found my 645N for $295, and I was very happy with that price. I can tell you that ergonomically it is very easy to shoot. my Dad (who does have photography experience but hasn't used a film camera/SLR in a few years) was even using it at a wedding. </p>

<p>I think the 645N is a nice middle ground for film. Something you might use for some time for black and white if nothing else. So it probably will be a worthwhile investment. Anyway, it's a fun camera to use in my limited use (60+ frames), and minus the custom functions (user settable), and MLU (not needed as per many test) it's pretty much a 645NII which was just discontinued a few weeks ago.</p>

[aizan_sasayama]

<p>6x4.5 is a great format for school work. you get a few more shots per roll to complete assignments, and it enlarges to standard 8x10s without much cropping.</p>

<p>the pentax 645n is a great choice. the only lenses you'll probably ever need are the 75/2.8 and 150/2.8. interchangeable backs and flash sync speed aren't all that important, in my experience.</p>

[raymond___k_osmotherly]

<p>Matthew<br>

I have a Bronica etrs. It is a great camera but be aware that you need a prism finder if you want to make vertical images. Using a waste level finder is just not a goer for verticals.<br>

Ray</p>

[frank.schifano]

<p>Agreed that 645 would be almost, if not perfectly ideal for your needs now. The negative is much bigger than 35 mm. and 11 x 14 prints can be very nice. Of course a 6x7 negative is even nicer, but the cameras are a lot bigger and heavier. Even the Pentax 67, which looks like bulked up 35 mm SLR, can get to be a strain after a couple of hours. The only thing I'd recommend is to concentrate on either the Mamiya or Pentax 645 systems. Both companies are still extant, Bronica is out of business. If you need accessories or service, you've a better shot with the Pentax or Mamiya. </p>

[Mike Gammill]

<p>For between 200 and 300 USD, you could get a Mamiya 645 with standard 80mm f2.8 lens, prism, and 120 film insert. It is manual focus, but takes lots of accessories. Also consider the Mamiya 645E. While it doesn't have the build quality of the M645 Pro or take interchangeable backs and finders, it has a bright viewfinder and takes the same lenses as the more expensive 645. I use a pair of Mamiya 645E's for most of my wedding photography.</p>

[ned1]

When I was a student I used a beat-up old Rolleicord. I paid $160 for it at a flea market. It did what I needed and the 6x6 format produced great prints.

 

If you need something with more bells and whistles on the cheap get a Pentax 645. It does auto exposure like a regulat SLR. They can be had for under $300. You should get a leaf-shutter lens to go with it or you'll have some trouble when it comes to outdoor fill flash fill-flash. For around $600 you can get a Pentax 645n, which can autofocus.