American flags everywhere - end of architectural photography as we know it?

[sandy_sorlien]

Hello all,

This may sound like a weird question, but please understand it comes from someone who has been grieving heavily after the disaster and has a flag out on her own house (albeit a small one). Here in Eastern Pennsylvania there are American flags everywhere; they have completely changed the appearance of small towns and residential neighborhoods and even farmsteads around here. Are there other architectural/place photographers out there who fear for the disappearance of their beloved subject matter? I would not worry about it if the flags and signs were up for a few months or even a year, but given the patriotic fervor in this country, I suspect that many people will leave them up indefinitely. As some of you know, I am starting to photograph Main Streets and this week in Kutztown, PA the problem really hit me -- my shot selection is extremely limited if I am going to portray these American towns in their "normal" paradoxical states of timelessness and flux, NOT as they look in wartime, or whatever this time might be. Sometimes it is downright impossible to photograph a building -- some of these flags are huge and virtually cover entire facades.

 

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Before the attacks, I felt somewhat the same way about the increased appearance of those stupid dribble lights and colorful cartoon flags on houses and big redundant banners on Main Street streetlights. For those of us who love architecture, it is frustrating to see older neighborhoods start looking like shopping malls, everybody with the same kind of decorations, covering up the indivudual character of their houses.

 

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I would like to hear from people in other parts of the US --- are the towns near you also covered in flags? Do I need to rethink or postpone my project, Main Streets in America?

 

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Thanks for any and all comments.

Peace, Sandy

[wilhelm]

Do it now, quick. The opportunity may not come again.

[abiggs]

This may be the BEST time to photograph Main Street in America. Your

images will, do doubt, portray 'American' main streets, and

definitely nobody else's.

 

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For example, there are some towns in the Rockies that I like to

photograph in B&W. There is nothing unique to these images, as these

towns could probably exist in eastern Europe.

 

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If you are after 'real' American main streets, this might be as real

as you can get.

 

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$.02

[j.ryder]

First of all it won't last. No doubt it is impossible to say how long

they will fly. Secondly, I urge you to take advantage of this unique

opportunity. I hope you are interested in architcture of streets as a

reflection of a indwelling human spririt, a sense not just of place

but of the inhabitants of these places. If so, the flags are another

reflection of that spririt, the decorations are a special

embellishment. These flags reflect a deep underlying sympathy and

patriotism which is just waiting for a skilled photographer to

manifest. The best most spiritual photographs of this instant in US

history, however done, will live forever as a statement of a

transient yet very heartfelt emotion long after the war is over and

the flags are folded. Much like the tears on a face, or the glint of

pride in an eye. It will require great skill but surely is worth the

effort to capture this. Because this unprecedented paroxysm will not

last, we must make our negatives now to record it forever.

[dick_bennett]

I find it utterly amazing that an American would view the presence of

many American flags as an interference with their little project. In

this time of national mourning you need to rethink your priorities.

[sandy_sorlien]

Richard,

I view the presence of many American flags with mixed feelings. I am

not alone in that view. Often mass showings of so-called patriotic

solidarity precede extremely scary actions. Many of these flags are

not just memorials for the victims of the attacks, but proclaim a

warrior mentality against our enemies.

In the nuclear age, that is frightening.

 

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On the other hand, as a memorial, and as a visual tribute, I find the

flags absolutely glorious and beautiful. As I said, it would be fine

if they were all up for a year if that is their purpose.

 

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I consider photographing America (and that has always been my subject)

to be a high calling. I am proud of it and I love this country. I

consider photography to be of great importance as an art form and as a

way to communicate complex information and emotions. I imagine you

would agree with that statement or you wouldn't be reading this forum.

 

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My Main Streets project is about showing what we have built over two

or three hundred years on this continent -- our houses, towns, and

cities. The architecture itself is a testament to our history,

perseverance, and sometimes, our failings. I believe American

architecture deserves its own record.

 

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I have always been curious about what other serious architectural

photographers think about decorations such as flags and banners on

houses. The city of Savannah is renowned for its architecture and

attracts visitors for that reason. When I went there in February,

there were no banners or mobiles or flags on the houses -- I think

there must be an ordinance against it.

 

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Perhaps that is a question for another time, and I didn't mean to

offend anyone by asking it now. But this forum has a practical

purpose and I have practical questions. They affect everyone who

photographs architecture.

 

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After all, on Thursday night the President asked of us one thing and

one thing only: live your normal life. Let's face it, America will

not appear to be living a normal life as long as her towns are

emblazoned with flags.

 

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I do agree with J. Ryder --- somebody should definitely record these

displays as expressions of a turbulent and mournful time. I would

guess that there are plenty of folks out there doing it for newspapers

and magazines. Undoubtedly, better than I could.

[r.l.__mac__mcdonald]

Sandy,

 

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Ok I'd like to give this one a try. I just hope that I can get my

point across. I agree with a lot of what you said, actually MOST of

it. But I do not agree with your comment about the U.S. Flag(my

statements will apply to State Flags and Flags of other Country's as

well). The flag is a very important cherished symbol. And sadly I

have found myself thinking about this more and more in the past five

or ten years. I do have a problem with the Flag being displayed,

more and more every single day that passes! As a matter of fact it

caused me to not make a very pleasing exposure this very morning in

downtown Denver!! But my problem is NEVER with the # or the size of

the flags being displayed. My problem is with well meaning Citizens

that have no knowlege of how to respect our Most Charished Symbol,

the U.S. Flag. I see this every second of every day as I spend a

great amount of time on the road. I am not exactly a Grumpy Old Fart

(Ok so there will be those who disagree) but I am 42years old and is

has NOT been that long since I was in Grammer School and that is

where I learned the importance of the Flag, and how to provide the

care it deserves.

I do not know or really care when or why we quit teaching this, but

it is time we all take on the responsibility and either LEARN OR

TEACH! After setting up this morning with the 5x7, I started looking

at this wonderful building that is Properly Displaying OUR Grand Old

Flag, I spotted not one, but no less than 4(FOUR!!!) vehicals on the

street in front of this building that were desicrating the flag. One

had a large flag slamed in the trunk and dragging on the ground, the

others had flags that were torn and shredded because they were not

aproved for wind speeds over 200 GD miles per hour. And one of those

torn flags was on the front of a Pickup Truck, across the grill and

judging from the window stickers may have belonged to a Marine!! So

Sandy I ask you to ask yourself, if those flags that you are not

happy with, were displayed correctly, would your opinion be the

same? I think NOT! Because as others have said WE should take

advantage of the moment. I fear it will not last...

 

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Very Sincerly.

 

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MAC

 

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PS-The above is addressed to all people reading this forum. Not just

those in the United States of America. If you have questions about

the flag and it's care contact an OLD Boy Scout, a VFW Post, or the

Color Guard of you local Police or Fire Dept.

[r.l.__mac__mcdonald]

Sandy,

 

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Timing, Timing, Timing! I am in the middle(they are finally in the

washer) of printing a few old negs for a friend. We like I said I

share your opinion and your discription "looking like shopping malls"

is how I feel many times but, I think we may be wrong! The last

photo that I printed was a street in what I suspect will be

identified as a small town in Iowa, some time in the early 1900's

(both horses and early autos). There are not only flags but every

window awning, Store front, and comercial vehical is covered with

advertisments! And it just looks like a normal day! So I opened up

a book that was just given to me by a Dear Friend. The book

is "Seeing Salt Lake City-the legacy of the Shipler Photographers"

This is a Great book if you have a chance to look at a copy. But as

I am going through the book, it becomes apparrent that what a lot of

use want to edit out, in our quest to record "Clean Pure" History is

really part of what we should be recording. And it becomes very

clear, that Clean and Pure Architectural Photography may not have

ever existed the way we sometimes think it did. But I will probably

not stop looking for those clean Shots, and I suspect a lot of people

will be doing the same.

 

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MAC

[r.l.__mac__mcdonald]

Sorry! Someday I will learn to read. Before I SUBMIT! It has been a

long day....

[david_goldfarb]

You think YOU'VE got trouble with subject matter? Take a look at this

review of a current show in New York by Nancy Davenport:

 

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http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0138/aletti.php

 

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She has been working on a project for three years, making composites

about a kind of universalized urban terrorism, which have suddenly

become uncannily like real photos in the news. Her show went up five

days before the disaster.

 

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In response to your question, I would wait and see. I can understand

that you want the subject to be the architecture and not the

historical moment (if it is possible not to represent the historical

moment, but that is a much bigger question). Work on another project

for a while or get caught up on the printing backlog (everyone has a

printing backlog, right?). There is a building in renovation I have

been wanting to photograph for two or three years now, and as soon as

the scaffolding comes down, I'll be there.

[richard_boulware]

The end of architectural photography as we know it? Gimme a break!

You have the opportunity to record a snap-shot in time. Building were

built by people, with an idea and a spirit. Today, you have an even

more evident expression of mans spirit...as expressed in a spirit of

patriotism. This adds character and emotion to any building which you

would photograph. If you want natural architecture head for the Grand

Canyon. That's Gods architecture. If you want mans architecture, take

it as it is, and love it. Part of photography is the use of symbols

which give greater meaning and depth to the photograph. They are

around you now...in abundance. If you don't get the message and are

not interested in capturing this unique moment in time... Take up

wood-working. Your're in the wrong hobby/business. With respect.

[philip_glass]

I worked as an assistant on an archeological dig of an historic

American house site. One morning we returned and found that someone

had moved some rocks around and placed some old junk under them. It

was intended to fool the archaeologist into thinking he had found

some significant new artifacts. It was a stupid stunt and I thought

it ruined the site. I was very surprised when the archaeologist

started drawing and cataloging the new feature and catalog in the

same way as the pre-existing part of the site. When I asked him why

since it was obviously bogus he said "it is part of the site and its

use." To me it was a very powerful message about what is authentic

and accepting the chaotic juxtaposition of past and present. I

suggest that Sandy reconsider the illusions that he/she is living

under and how that is impacting his/her work. The attitude that

flags or other recent elements in a picture is somehow "inauthentic"

or a disturbance of normal "timelessness and flux" makes me think

that his/her work is really a wistful and sentimental conception.

That is fine if that is the kind of work he/she is aiming for, but it

is shallow as hell.

[dan_smith]

If he doesn't want the flags, he doesn't want the flags. So what.

And for those who bitch & complain he isn't patriotic or I am not,

how many of you moaners are veterans? If not that, how many did not

vote in the last election? Or missed other elections for trivial

reasons. Not wanting a ton of flags to block viewing the buildings is

not unpatriotic. And not waving flags does not make one unpatriotic

either. Your idea of showing patriotism is not a requirement for

anyone else. After all, it was the 'super patriots' who imprisoned

American Citizens who were of japanese ancestry... racism pure &

simple led by Roosevelt & gladly supported by the patriots of the

time while villifying those who would defend the 'dirty japs'. Now

you same people will villify a photographer for wanting a photograph

relatively free of flags when nothing is wrong with him wanting that.

If the guy doesn't want the flags, so what?!

[kevin_kemner1]

Wow,

 

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I almost posted to this thread earlier. I'm glad I didn't because I

was pretty hot about the Flag issue. So hopefully I won't inflame

anyone but here are my thoughts. First let me say that much of my

career has been as an architectural educator and critic. Photography

is a very serious passion. Ok, my thoughts.

 

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Like an above post I am 42 years old. My parents generation, my

grandparents generation, and my great grandparents generation wera

all veterans. I grew up in a small midwestern town.

 

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Flags were flown daily at all communal institutions. e.g. banks,

schools, and yes gas stations. Everybody flew flags on all the

public holidays, such as the 4th, President's day (although I

remember when it was individual's birthdays, Veteran's day, etc. The

flag was very important to my family and my family's friends. There

was nothing unusual about seeing flags adorning buildings and to read

your concern that this will be an in-authentic time strikes me as

either ill informed about a greater portion of America or as

aesthetically pre-determined.

 

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Savannah is not a real town in the sense that tourism is its primary

source of income and the image of the city is its primary resource.

There are ordinances protecting the downtown squares of Savannah (the

most historic portion) and in this sense Savannah should be regarded

the same as colonial Williamsburg. Both are incredibly beautiful

cities, however, both embody carefully constructed commercial

images. In this sense they are not synthetic (resulting from natural

growth and development).

 

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Living towns and main streets will always be the outcome of the range

of tastes of the people who live and work there. In this sense they

are dynamic, changing seasonally, economically, and aesthetically.

The drippy lights that Sandy decried are an incredibly moving sight

during the holiday season in my home town. For me a project hoping

to document the main streets of America would not be based on a pre-

conceived aesthetic desire, rather would celebrate the present,

complete with its kitsch, bad taste, messiness, pride, and inherent

beauty.

 

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Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[sandy_sorlien]

Hi again, it's Sandy the original poster. So you don't have to guess

at the proper pronoun to use, I'm female.

 

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It's been an invigorating discussion -- the occasional abuse is

helping me solidify my resolve when it comes to what I must

photograph. We are all undoubtedly experiencing uncertainty about the

future now. But I am firmly convinced that it is more important than

ever to keep making pictures of America. I do not consider this a

trivial matter.

 

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I gotta say, however, that some of you have an awfully narrow view of

what photography can or should do. If I don't want to record changing

events, I should take up another medium? There are plenty of fine

photographers reacting to changing events and a lot of them are

working for daily newspapers or weekly news magazines. You don't need

me to do that. What I do have is a very firm sense of what has been

disappearing from America (call that a long-term changing event if you

want) and a distinct vision of how to portray those places. Yes, I do

go out with an idea of what I want to say. It could be argued that a

photographer, artist, or writer who goes out without any ideas and

simply reacts uncritically to whatever is in front of her is the one

who is shallow.

 

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The problem with the flags, for me visually, is not their symbolism

but their sameness. I am definitely including flags in some pictures,

and of course there were flags up before September 11. But now I fear

every picture will include a flag. The towns I have visited this week

have put them up on every light post so that the streetscape panoramas

are going to look rather similar whether in Kutztown, PA or Bisbee,

Arizona. This is also my objection to the dribble lights. Sure, they

look pretty at night around Christmastime. (In the daytime they look

ridiculous, like you've hung plastic six-pack holders all along the

roofline.) But in my neighborhood at least, so many people have these

lights, and leave them up all year, that the street looks like a

lighted mall, every avenue the same. When I was a kid, in December we

drove or walked around different neighborhoods to view the Christmas

displays - all different colors, different sizes, different

configurations, fantastic! Can you imagine a family doing that now to

look at all the white dribble lights?

 

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Kevin, one thing I am not is ill-informed about the greater part of

Anerica. I have traveled alone, slowly, to all fifty states, none of

it on interstates. What strikes me the most is that over the past

twenty years America's delightful diversity of regional architecture

and the idiosyncrasy of personal expression has been inexorably

subverted by mass tastes in culture, imposed on us by television and

advertising and greed. Homogeneous subdivisions, all houses the same,

the same bland designs sold all over the country. The same banners and

lights and flags on front porches and town streetlamps. Oh, don't get

me wrong, I am happily including signs and window displays and crazy

kitschy stuff in my Main Street photographs! I've already done a book

on unadorned architecture -- this one will be different, that's why I

chose Main Streets. I just don't want it all to look the same.

 

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Cheers,

Sandy

[carl_harrison]

Taking ourselves a little too seriously, they are just pictures and

it has been done numerous times.

[andy_ongun]

I had to deal with this last week for a commercial building, and

noone had the access key for the area to remove the flag up front (it

was covering the front part of the building.) A bit of photoshop

work and it is gone!!!

[j.ryder]

Sandy,

I figure you already know these things but I am not quite willing to

give up yet. Yes, there are many photographers trying to capture the

flag. Our newspaper had a feature spread where there were many

perfectly ordinary images of flags. None of them captured much of the

spirit that hangs with them. But you must work with a large format

camera and if we have learned anything on this forum it is that large

format photography, and large format photographs are different. A

large format photograph of a flag adorned street may reveal a deeper

underlying emotion. Furthermore the additional contemplation required

for a large format image by the photographer may reveal additional

content not offered by quicker formats. And still further someone

with your obvious background and study of these very American ideas

and environments will explore these themes of American streetscapes

in a very unique fashion whatever the format.

It is precisely because of the depth of your travels, experience,

seriousness and methods that we can hope you will reveal something

about this that can only come from you. We, and you won't know unless

you try.

My wife tells me she saw a feature on tv about a veteran war

photographer who happened to be at the World Trade Center that day.

She says his photoraphers were vastly better than anything else, more

beaufifully spiritual and mourning. His experience taught him how to

say exactly what he thought and felt and exactly what needed to be

said. We can understand the experience differently because of his

work. He was the exact right person at the right moment.

Perhaps you are as well. Who better than you to show us what so many

flags mean across all 50 states in so many communities, to reveal a

symbolic unity among all of our differences.

Please don't assume you are not without thinking and feeling about

this opportunity to express something from within you that may need

to be said to all the rest of us.

I don't know what your photographs will say but please bring your

careful attachments and large format vision to the flag draped

American streetscape. Who knows there may be a book in it.

Please, I hope you understand, I think this is a very special time

and requires some very special photography. May we each contribute.

And when you visit Lexington, look me up on my lovely street.

[michael_kravit]

Hello Sandy,

 

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You wrote:

 

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"Before the attacks, I felt somewhat the same way about the increased

appearance of those stupid dribble lights and colorful cartoon flags

on houses and big redundant banners on Main Street streetlights. For

those of us who love architecture, it is frustrating to see older

neighborhoods start looking like shopping malls, everybody with the

same kind of decorations, covering up the indivudual character of

their houses."

 

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As an architect I can tell you that we regularly incorporate those

big redunant "banners" into our design concepts. They are colorful,

playful, decorative and create a sense of scale and space. They are

part of the festive feel of towns, squares, and villages. They

portray society and societal concepts.

 

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I suggest that by photographing the flags at this time you "are"

photgraphing America. America in a time of string emotional out

crying, anger, sympathy and empathy. I am please to have my projects

photgraphed with banners and flags. Architecture does not exist

exclusive of people, art, and society. Architecture is part of

society and reflects the state of society at a particular point in

time.

 

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Go out and make your photoghraph. I hope that 10, 25, or 50 years

from now you can look back and realize that you photographed America

at a very important time in her history. Just like Timothy

O'Sullivan, George Tice, And Paul Strand to name a few, each

generation has those moments that define the period. This may one of

them. Press on and do what you do.

 

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Good Luck,

Mike

 

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Michael J. Kravit, AIA

Architect/Photographer

[hans_berkhout]

I still have not absorbed the full impact of the disaster. I am sorry

for all who lost friends, family, their footing.

 

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However if/hen the flags are gone, you'll still have the white

plastic lawn/patio chairs to deal with- in the USA, Italy or Iceland,

where ever you may be shooting. Place them on IX if they are clean.

 

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Good luck.

[stephen_vaughan3]

As a contributor from the UK, I would like to add to this thread just

to say that the American flag can be seen very prominently here too.

In the small suburban town, south of London, where I live, the flag

has been flown on the side of buildings, in windows and cars. We even

see lots of people wearing clothes with the American flag on the

front, or 'New York New York' on the back.

On the whole I feel that this is not a sign of aggression to an enemy,

but a valuable symbol of our shared grief, sympathy and common

humanity.

We must try to carry on with our normal lives, but it is difficult to

know what 'normal' is after such an event. History doesn't always

progress at a slow relentless pace. It often veers dramatically off

course, and our lives, culture, art, architecture and way of seeing

the world around us shifts accordingly.

Though any photography outside the immediate events may seem a trivial

occupation right now, I suspect that photographs made by those who

work with the steady gaze of the view camera, not just in the

immediate turbulence, but in coming months and years, will create work

of historical and philosophical importance. We all document the world

around us, and yes Sandy, we do need you to record this time in YOUR

way.

 

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Wi

[sandy_sorlien]

Hans,

I usually place them on the back porch.

Cheers.

[jim_galli4]

Hi Sandy. I think I understand. I bought a car for my college bound

daughter on Ebay and flew to Minneapolis 1900 miles from my burg in

Central Nevada to pick it up. Beginning in southern MN I found myself

taking offramps from Interstate 90 on purpose so that I could just

enjoy looking at the Main Streets. (A really bad idea when you've got

to go 1900 miles in 3 days) What a quality and individuality we've

lost in America. Those main street store fronts and buildings both

large and small were done either on a Mom and Pop's idea or the bigger

better ones were done by regional architects that hadn't too much idea

what was selling well 800 miles away. Ultimately the main street

degenerates into old residences turned vacuum cleaner repair place,

and finally the "new" area that has the Mcdonalds and the 4 square of

gasoline stations. All the same, all embarrassingly shallow in the

"look" that is America 2001. (Flags wrapped around the grille of a

pickup truck with gunracks) As far as the flags, I don't really have

2¢ to offer other than if your photo's will be dated as to when taken

it'll be a poignant reminder that on September 11 2001 our nation did

turn another corner on it's journey

[doug_paramore]

Sandy: I have been thinking about your question for two days and

finaly decided to add my two cents worth. In my humble opinion, I

would suggest waiting to finish the project. I am one of the older

folks on this forum, a former serviceman, and I was eight years old

when WWII ended, so I have an inborn love of our country. That said,

I believe this is not the time to finish your project. As much as I

love our country and our flag, that is not the scope of your project.

It would be like taking pictures of all the towns during Christmas

and having a book with Christmas lights in every picture. I would

certainly include flags in a picture or two, but not every picture.

Not wanting flags in every picture does not make you any less

patriotic than not wanting churches or Christmas decorations in every

shot makes you a non-believer. This time of intense patriotism and

flag waving is wonderful at this time of national crisis, but like

most other things, it, too, shall pass.

 

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I wish you great success with your project.

 

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Regards,

[skygzr]

Hi Sandy -

 

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Interesting question. Here's my $0.02.

 

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I like to photograph buildings, too. There's lots of old ones here

in Charleston, some protected as historical sites, most not. At

various times, a particular property might have been a drug store, a

grocery, apartments, or just sat empty. Most have changed

considerably since they were built.

 

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My point is that buildings and Main Street don�t exist in a vacuum.

They reflect what the people who live and work in them are thinking

and feeling. It just so happens that in late 2001, we're hanging

flags on them.

 

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It may not be what you had in mind, but I'd say shoot the pictures

anyway.

 

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Peace and good light.