Area camera club ruining my business, free photos!

[artisitc_eye]

<p>

<p>I could really use a hand folks. I'm about to explode with rage, though I know I will live through this... right now, I am afraid I'm going to loose my mind.<br>

So, I was contracted (hired with very minimal pay, but I don't ask for much as I make my earnings off of my sales) to photograph an event over a weekend, two hours away from my home. I photograph sporting events, on a professional level. I provide finish line photography (among many other things) for events for a reasonable cost. I enjoy doing this, always have, because these people participating in such enduring events are simply inspiring to me. I'm not too athletic myself, so even running a 5k race is an inspiration to me! :-)<br>

Now, the local camera club ASKED for permission by the event organizer to come to the event and take pictures. The PR person who hired me was aware of this, however she had not worked with this club before and was not aware of their methods. The club shows up, with their mob of Digital Rebels and slow lenses, shoots over my shoulder (literally at one point) and gets in the way of a pace car at a finish line among other very unprofessional things. Yes I realize that by posting this I may be thought of as unprofessional, especially if my dear camera club friends are reading this... but honestly I am o.k. with it. I'm here for support, and I'm not the bad guy in this situation.<br>

So here is my pickle. I worked two days behind the camera, and I'm going on almost 20 hours of post processing work. There are thousands of images, most of which need to be numbered individually or in small batches of 2-5 images to accommodate the easy search feature I offer my customers. This is an average event for me, lots of time and sweat for a game of chance at sales. I usually do well enough to make a very small salary over the summer. <br>

Now I google the name of the event, and photos. I see several links to their site talking about giving away the photos for free. I see a forum where a poster talks poorly about me selling the images when she says after another poster mentions my website:<br>

"Yes, we're well aware of her. She is selling the photos; we are giving them away like we always do when we are asked to photograph local events. It is our way of giving back to the community. I will just leave it at that. No need to air dirty laundry. Michelle" </p>

Here is my question for you folks and friends of Photo.net:

How is a camera club who aims to support the growth of aspiring photographers able to sleep at night knowing they are hurting a local business? Seriously, when I go to my next club meeting I'm going to say "Hey gang! Let's got to the next wedding/event and take pictures and then give them away." Is this not wrong? There are many more details that bring my anger to the place it is in, but I do not want to name names.

I'm livid

</p>

[luis_g]

<p>Oh, you're in the club? You could organize field trips to parks or wilderness areas on the dates you have booked. Seriously, specify in your contract that you're the sole event photographer. I would talk with the members of the club and maybe bring this up, and the idea that they could contribute to the community with an exhibit at the library or any accomodating business. This would get more exposure for the members and put enough of a lag in the process for you to get your sales.</p>

[nathan_meador]

<p>Did the organizer promote both you AND the club? If so, I'd be sure to get sole rights to shoot next time. </p>

<p>Based on your post, I would expect that their photos are not of the same quality as yours, especially as the day went on and the light became poor. You are a professional photographer and your photos should be of a much higher quality than what they are giving away. Plus you spend a great deal of time editing, so it should be no surprise to anyone that you ask for some level of payment for the finished product.</p>

[waltflanagan]

 

<blockquote>

<p>Here is my question for you folks and friends of Photo.net: How is a camera club who aims to support the growth of aspiring photographers able to sleep at night knowing they are hurting a local business? Seriously, when I go to my next club meeting I'm going to say "Hey gang! Let's got to the next wedding/event and take pictures and then give them away." Is this not wrong? There are many more details that bring my anger to the place it is in, but I do not want to name names. I'm livid</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I suspect that they slept just fine, probably better in fact. They said it is their way of giving back to the community. Usually when I give back to the community I also sleep better that night. What does "support the growth of aspring photographers" actually mean? You seem to imply that it means "help them go pro and sell their work." To me it just means help them take better pictures. Most of the people in the camera club I know have day jobs and just enjoy taking pics for fun. If someone enjoys it why not give it away for free? Why should they or I care about protecting your business model? If I help someone with a flat tire should I care that the local towing company lost money?</p>

<p>I have gone to many events and given away full res images to competitors. The kind of events I am talking sometimes have paid competitors but an army of volunteers. Since many are working for free it seems wrong to me to then try and sell photos. Some other photographers at my events have sold photos but the key difference is they never had any exclusive agreement, either written or implied, with the organizer so I felt perfectly fine giving away photos.</p>

<p>If I were using your business model I would be upset at the organizer for allowing the camera club to show up. I wouldn't actually blame the club itself. If you wish to continue using your current business model I suggest having an exclusive photographer clause in your contract. If others show up tell the organizer that the contract is now void.</p>

[artisitc_eye]

<p>Thanks for your quick responses! I am not a member of the mentioned club, but of one in my area. I had thought of mentioning this to them... especially at the moment, as I'm under a bit of stress. My computer crashed in the middle of an upload, the external hard drive with my images on it seems to be damaged & the images did not transfer to the machine. I'm holding my breath till my husband gets home, he's an IT guy and I do hope he can fix it! If not, I'm out a day's worth of images. :-0 Though after reading their forum posts, I really do not feel they are the slightest bit friendly. :-(<br>

In my contract it does state that I am the official photographer. I have a link on the events website & so far the club does not, and I do not believe they will be getting one. I would really hate to pursue the legality of the contract, because you can't stop the public from photographing events and they are human too. Although after reading their site and blog posts, they fail to mention the sit down meeting with the PR person who specifically told them that I was a hired professional & they were to stay out of my way and in the general public areas. Sometimes I wish I was a mean girl! I would have barked at them the day's of & this wouldn't be the issue. I know full and well, even after this experience I will have a hard time being mean or stern in future situations. Perhaps I could have pulled my contract out of my gear bag, pointed to it and said "See, you need to go away." in a nice way of course! LOL</p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>How is a camera club who aims to support the growth of aspiring photographers able to sleep at night knowing they are hurting a local business?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You're asking the wrong question here. The question should be "How do I make my services more valuable than what the camera club is doing." If they can provide exactly what you can provide, then there isn't going to be much reason to pay you. It's not their business to take care of you. It's your business to take care of you.<br>

<br /> How do you do this? You can start with photos that are better in some way (not necessarily quality, there may be other things they are looking for), commitments to do certain shots for them that may be more difficult than the average snapper can do, delivery schedule, maybe some special services with prints.</p>

<p>I shoot alongside people who aren't charging, and many who charge don't get what I get. This is sports. The way I make sure I keep my business going is delivering great photos within six hours of the event ending. Since the events usually end around midnight, and I may have a drive longer than an hour, it's an all-nighter. But they have a quality presentation on their web site by noon the day after the event, and nobody else does. Their opponents may have a couple shots, but no gallery or slide show, and usually not the same quality. They have been very up-front with me - I deliver faster than anyone taking professional (print/publicity quality) photos.</p>

[artisitc_eye]

<p>

 

 

<p>Walt - you wouldn't sit outside the towing company's business and give away tire changes for free would you? That's not cool.<br>

As for aspiring photographers,<br>

"What does "support the growth of aspring photographers" actually mean? You seem to imply that it means "help them go pro and sell their work." To me it just means help them take better pictures. Most of the people in the camera club I know have day jobs and just enjoy taking pics for fun. If someone enjoys it why not give it away for free? Why should they or I care about protecting your business model? If I help someone with a flat tire should I care that the local towing company lost money?"<br>

really? That's really how you feel. Gosh. I feel that a photo club in that nature (the support aspiring photographers) can go both ways, helping people take better pictures and reach their own personal goals. Just think back to when you or maybe someone you know like friends of the club with day jobs (which sadly, I too still try to hold) became interested in making a career out of their talent. I guess I'm a softy, but I would never intentionally encourage another person to cause harm or ill profit to another human... unless of course they did not stop on the side of the road and help you change that tire! :-)<br>

Jeff - I follow the same path. My images are up as soon as humanly possible, the organization and numbering of my images (bib #'s need to match photo's and participants so they can easily find their shot) takes a good chunk of time depending on the size of the event. Of course when I'm out shooting from 6 a.m. till 8 p.m. with several thousand images on my plate, I still slam the coffee and sit down and process them over night until my upload starts. I'm glad you mentioned the speed of delivery, because I'll tell you my husband has given me grief about that time and time again! I can't tell him enough that time is of the essence! As for the rage, it wouldn't be there if I wasn't passionate about what I do.</p>

 

 

</p>

[waltflanagan]

<blockquote>

<p>Walt - you wouldn't sit outside the towing company's business and give away tire changes for free would you? That's not cool.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No I would not sit outside the towing company business but if I was in the grocery store parking lot and there was a tow truck there I would still offer to help someone fix their car. Did the camera club stand outside of your place of business taking business away from you? Did they stake out your home and then follow you to the event and then conceive a plan to ruin your business? It sounds like they decided to do it completely independent of you.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p><br /> really? That's really how you feel. Gosh. I feel that a photo club in that nature (the support aspiring photographers) can go both ways, helping people take better pictures and reach their own personal goals. Just think back to when you or maybe someone you know like friends of the club with day jobs (which sadly, I too still try to hold) became interested in making a career out of their talent. I guess I'm a softy, but I would never intentionally encourage another person to cause harm or ill profit to another human... unless of course they did not stop on the side of the road and help you change that tire! :-)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm just wondering how you know that they intentionally tried to cause harm or ill profit. Michelle's own quote sounds like they view themselves as the good guys by "giving back to the community." What is wrong with encouraging a camera club to shoot an event for free and give away the pics? The photographers get experience, the competitors get free pics. You seem to be the only person upset by what happened. If there are other pros in the camera club then rather than just encourage members to go for any random method to make money selling photos they should actually suggest ways that work. If the business model is too susceptible to losing to "free photos" then perhaps they should advise members to go in a different direction. If you want to stay with your current model then either be mean and enforce your exclusive photographer clause or follow Jeff's advice.</p>

 

[bobcossar]

<p>Part of the answer is this: If the client cannot see a difference between what a pro does and what the camera club does.......Then the Pro <strong>really</strong> has to change their act.<br>

You complain....and with some cause, that <em><strong>"their mob of Digital Rebels and slow lenses" </strong> </em> shows up and, apparently, produce images that the public like as much as yours.....</p>

<p>So, 2 Things come to mind:: <strong>1.</strong> Improve your quality level over that of a camera club standard. and</p>

<p> <strong> 2.</strong> Consider doing this work with a <em><strong>contract</strong> </em> which will resolve the problem, and also might include your providing a benefit of some sort to the organising body.</p>

<p>You<strong> CAN </strong> make all this work to your advantage....respects, Bob</p>

<p> </p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>How is a camera club who aims to support the growth of aspiring photographers able to sleep at night knowing they are hurting a local business?</em></p>

<p>Its puzzling to hear you are an 'aspiring photographer' and a 'local business' at the same time. Assuming a goal of the club is actually to support aspiring photographers, they seem to have provided the actual aspiring photographers with an opportunity to shoot something of local interest that they otherwise may not have been able to do.</p>

<p><em>when I go to my next club meeting I'm going to say "Hey gang! Let's got to the next wedding/event and take pictures and then give them away." Is this not wrong?</em><br>

<em></em><br>

The club members obtained permission to get access to shoot a public event which from a restricted vantage point. A wedding, generally a private event, is not really the same in the sense. Giving to a community is not quite the same as giving to some private people. In any event, if club members want to volunteer their services, that's their perogative.</p>

[peter_wang6]

<p>Not to beat a dead horse here but seriously? You're running a business and you feel like you are unfairly competing against amateurs who take free photos for cheap thrills?</p>

<p>I hate to break it to you but there are going to be people like that everywhere you go. You do enough weddings and sooner or later, you're going to come across some deep-walleted guest of your client with a "prosumer" camera (or even worse, a flagship or even Leica rangefinder), prime glass, with big ideas in his head about how you should do your job and an even bigger ego to boost, swaggering into the reception talking about how he could beat you in a shootout. If you had posted in the Wedding/Event forum, you'd get fifty other people telling you their own horror stories along the same lines.</p>

<p>There will always, ALWAYS be people/organizations out there that will do what you do for less, for fun, or for free. If you want to make a career out of something, it's YOUR responsibility to prove your value. It has nothing to do with their ability or their pricing (or lack thereof). It has everything to do with what YOU can demonstrate. Focusing on them, rather than your client, is a big mistake.</p>

<p>That said, I think the camera club members are being d***s about it. They can claim the moral high ground, which makes them smug. They feel entitled to be unprofessional because after all, they're not being paid, it's "for a good cause." The crux of the matter is that they don't have to play by the same rules, because for them, it's FUN and PRACTICE, not a LIVELIHOOD, not food on the table. And they have no respect because they're hobbyists who can take it or leave it. It's the exact same thing with the wedding guest who fancies himself a pro just because he walks in with a big lens. Is it fair? No. But seriously, what do you want out of the experience? Bitterness? A shoulder to cry on? Someone to soothe your insecurities? <strong>NO!</strong>--what you want is to make a living and be successful, and the only way you are ever, EVER going to do that is to prove yourself to your client, time and time again. You deliver the goods and you do it with class.</p>

[peter_wang6]

<p>I just want to add one more thing.</p>

<p>If one's sole source of income is their photography, that does not by definition make them a "professional." All it means is they make money off their pictures.</p>

<p>A professional photographer understands how to manage the entire business aspect of photography, no matter what form that business takes. They could be a fine art photographer who has gallery representation. They could be a wildlife photographer working for NGS. They could be a stock photographer selling rights to their work online. They could be a wedding photographer... etc. But in each case, the professional understands how to manage the business and deliver to the client. Otherwise, they're just an amateur selling shots. Just because I can go on Craigslist and put my car up for sale doesn't suddenly make me a car dealer. And that's why, even though I take pictures--and I might even sell occasionally--I am not a professional photographer by any stretch of the imagination.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>Walt - you wouldn't sit outside the towing company's business and give away tire changes for free would you</em>?</p>

<p>He might if he thought it was something he would enjoy doing. Walt has no duty to your hypothetical towing company business nor do any of the club members have a duty to your business.</p>

<p><em>I feel that a photo club in that nature (the support aspiring photographers) can go both ways, helping people take better pictures and reach their own personal goals. </em><br>

<em></em> <br>

The photo club accomplished both. The club members got practice time in a privileged setting at an event which is something they wanted to be able to do.</p>

<p><em>I would never intentionally encourage another person to cause harm or ill profit to another human</em><br>

<em></em> <br>

That curious since you wish to pressure people, who are doing nothing wrong, from doing doing something they enjoy all for your own self interest.</p>

<p><em>As for the rage, it wouldn't be there if I wasn't passionate about what I do.</em><br>

<em></em> <br>

This may be so but it has no relevence to whether the club members have acted poorly.</p>

<p>Feeling frustrated is one thing but suggesting that the club owes you any duty of loyalty is wrong. </p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>Well, you can't compete on price. So it looks as if you' d better compete on quality and service. Capitalism can be tough!</p>

[phyrpowr]

<p>That club owes you no duties, true, but that Michelle can see the inside of her own navel if she thinks YOU are somehow in the wrong for selling your work. And I would DEFINITELY be wary of dealing with that PR person again. </p>

[jim_jones22]

<p>I'm not a photographer but I work with one. I follow her at weddings and events alot. She has tons of other people with their big expensive cameras taking pictures right over her shoulder all the time. Especially at weddings. The point is, anyone can take pictures. I can take pictures. But I can't take good pictures. I don't even attempt it because mine won't even come close to the quality of the Pro's work. So I just carry the bag of lenses and watch. If you're photo's are good they will sell. There is a reason why she gets paid thousands shooting pictures, and the bride and groom don't just let uncle bob with his brand new super nikon-big lens- thing take snapshots on automatic mode. </p>

[joshuasigar]

<blockquote>

<p>Walt - you wouldn't sit outside the towing company's business and give away tire changes for free would you? That's not cool.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I do, but free service only for friends :). I'm one of those geeks and when I find out if someone I know need some help with their computer, I won't let the Geek Squad overcharge them.</p>

<p>But I give free service/products to strangers, too. I write software and make it available freely for download.</p>

<p>One thing, though, they can't blame me if something goes wrong--I can't expect that if I get paid.</p>

<p>So, for you, step up your service and final products.</p>

<p>P.S. Did you know some people making money teaching picture taking, while these people in the forum do it for free somewhat?</p>

[cathy_and_david_bock]

<p>I suggest charging more, making yourself the exclusive photographer, and having rights to tell other photographers that they must leave. I think saying you are reasonably priced means you are not charging enough. You should be appropriately priced. Don't be afraid to charge what you're worth!</p>

<p>Also, regardless of how many thousands of photos you are editing (we usually take anywhere for 4000-8000 images for a wedding) it shouldn't be taking you more than 8 hours to edit them. There's a problem there. I suggest farming out your post processing.</p>

[petrbohacek]

<p>Hi Laura,<br>

right now I'm thinking/reading a lot about photography business (now I'm on the crossroad whether to go pro or stay amateur) and so I've found very interesting the book written by Dane Sanders - Fast Track Photographer. Aimed to wedding photographer but lot of thoughts can be used in general. The biggest idea for me is that if you run your own company then it shouldn't be about your photography but about you (I know it's hard to understand but more in the book).<br>

My two cents. Maybe it'll help you.</p>

[justin_greene]

<p>I agree with the OP. It is 'unsportsmanlike' of the local club to send a mob to an event where a photographer has already set up a relationship with the event with the purpose of actually making money.<br>

.<br>

If they want to give a service to the community, let them go places the community doesn't already have photography coverage.</p>

[aimee_pieters]

<p>Laura,<br>

FREE vs Quality will always win. Your clients need to understand that you're exclusive and that if they allow others to photograph and sell images, you'll walk off the field.<br>

Another angle might be to charge a more hefty shooting fee and rebate the organization based on sales. This way they'll promote you as it will benefit them. You would also be able to advertise <em>"...a portion of sales is donated back to..."</em> Money always talks....-Aimee</p>

[peter_mclaughlin1]

<p>Put everything in the contract. Without that, your bucket will leak.</p>

[etiennephotography]

<p>OMG! You poor thing! I would be equally as enrtaged as you are! You have my total compassion over this situation! I would contact the event organizer and let them know how you feel and what is has done to your business. next time make sre they do not allow anyone to com and do this. Its really UNCOOL on all levels!</p>

[mike dixon]

<blockquote>

<p>Seriously, specify in your contract that you're the sole event photographer.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>For events that take place in public areas (rather than private, limited-access facilities), that could be impossible to enforce. In fact, if you start harrassing people in public areas (e.g. a race route on public streets) for taking photos, you could get yourself into legal trouble.</p>

[meg]

<p>I would be ticked too! I agree with everybody saying that make sure your photos are the highest level, so they will get something so much better if they purchase one of your photos. But free will still often win. This isn't something they're going to order a 16x20 of for their home. They'll probably order a small print and scrapbook it. They don't really care so much about quality if they can get something else for free. <br>

My advice would be, in the future when you do this event, ask if they are going to be there. And charge a lot more, so what you don't get on prints, you'll get paid for the day. If you can politely explain how the club got in your way at the event, do so. <br>

Of if you wanna be sneaky, go on one of the blogs where they're making you look like a bad guy. Say that you're a friend of the photographer, and politely defend yourself.</p>