bride wants to see ALL the photos

[michael_notar1]

<p>well how is she to deal with... does it sound like "control freak" ? if she is nice about it, respond kindly, grab 30 or so random outtakes to show to her so she sees theres nothing out there.</p>

<p>if its getting to be a handful, remind her of your paperwork and show her all the outtakes but say it will cost x for your time etc. </p>

<p>is this a shoot to burn wedding...you shoot and give them a high res disk...?</p>

<p>digital has made photos a commodity. it used to be x amount of proofs. then it got competative... x studio has 6 hours and 100 proofs for $1000, while studio z has the same package/price but with 125 proofs. studio z seems like a better deal. even though both might shoot the same images and perhaps studio x is better. same with digital, perhaps she is thinking she is not getting her money's worth, unreasonable i add.</p>

<p>i believe this is one reason to not offer such service. i do but at a large price, since people who ask for it are looking for faster/smaller packages. i offer it but realize i am losing all print sales with selling them a disk so my price reflects that. havent sold high res files yet and its not my main product to sell so i dont care how often i get a bite.</p>

<p>if i did sell a disk, it would be ALL photos taken, even bad ones. i shoot raw and would adjust them to the best as my abilities. not sure why i chose this, perhaps to get the wedding over with once and forever. </p>

<p>in another sense, wouldnt it be fun to say, yes i will give you EVERY photo i shot in a geniunely nice tone, and provide her with 500+ 21MP 16bit files to look at.</p>

[michael_notar1]

<p>also, i have have learned how to edit portraits. after the blinks/exposure probs etc, i dont edit much. perhaps duplicates, but i allow them to choose with smile/expression they like. perhaps she is thinking you did some of this "personal preferences editing".</p>

<p>arent weddings fun.... i too fear conflict when thinking about weddings but there is good fortune out there. my first wedding of the year booked friday, 20 days before the date, and is having more of a party than wedding. the bride says the most formal thing about the day will be the clothes, i wanted to do it in jeans. there wont even be a first dance, we dont dance. we were really hoping for some heavy metal music but realize we have to make it G rated for the kids. she promised sarcasm will be plentiful from everyone.</p>

<p>now this makes me want to shoot weddings!</p>

[ed mendes]

<p>Don't move an inch off your policy! </p>

[matt_needham]

<p>Don't label the extras "rejects". If the photographer says they are faulty, then everyone will decide they are faulty, and no one is going to give you a break because you were the one that labeled them so. Photographers and artists can point out flaws all day long in their own work, yet other folks may not notice those flaws in a lifetime of looking. If you are going to give her extra photos, just polish them up as good as you can, and tell her that you hope she enjoys them. Don't say "Here are those rejects you asked for." :)</p>

<p> </p>

[bob_himmelright]

<p>when I've shot events, I rename all the files on the disk so they don't think there are screw ups, but I do intentionally leave one or two OOF or blinking shots in there so that question doesn't come up.</p>

[william-porter]

<p> I agree: It's not a national security issue. Grateful to everybody who replied but I kind of figured out what I'd do after the first several replies. I'm afraid I may keep the thread alive by continuing to respond. But I am grateful for people's input.</p>

<p>For the record: I'm NOT labeling the extra photos "rejects." To say it aloud is to realize it's a bad term. :-)</p>

<p>Yes, this is a "shoot & burn" job. Except that I post-process photos. I don't deliver 'em unprocessed raw files. Just my selection of processed, high-res converted jpegs. I appreciate both the advantages and the disadvantages of this approach. At the present time, the clients I'm getting are all on tight budgets and this is what they can afford. I've been growing my business slowly and deliberately and I hope shortly to be getting more per wedding AND providing a different set of services.</p>

[crystals photos]

<p>I actually had this issue but with a pin up style shoot. I shot SO many of her that ended up just being awful. She would have a weird look on her face or wasn't in the right position. When I started editing the several hundred photos I took about half were good. And of that half (many many duplicates) I edited the best of the best and gave her those. She was so upset and wanted ALL the photos (500+ mind you) I tried explaining to her that I wasn't going to give her the "not great" ones because I didn't want those floating around and people thinking that was examples of my work. I'm just starting out and that seemed like bad publicity for me.<br>

I did end up sitting down with her and showing her the photos. After much back and forth I did end up releasing a few of the ones I thought were not my best work. It made her happier and resolved the issue.<br>

Perhaps your bride is worried what YOU may think is a bad shot she would want.</p>

[kiva]

<p>I think you've declared the thread to be dead Will (does that mean you're "rejecting" it or are you deleting it or just gonna' ignore it now, smile) ... it was a good topic, thanks.</p>

<p>Before I go I wanted to respond the naming of the image files ... one strategy that came up in previous thread from a great photographer in Alaska was to use a little utility called "Dim Utility" (just google it) which is free. This little utility renames the image files upon uploading to your comptuer with the date stamp. So, no need to renumber later ... if you delete a photo you've merely deleted a time stamp and there is no gap in the numbering to be recognized at any time.</p>

<p>The reason to name them to the timestamp upon upload is that some softwares just seem to mysteriously strip the time and date of files out at times which can be a real headache to straighten the sequence up again. </p>

<p>Just a thought on renaming since it was brought up a few times.</p>

[aldrich]

<p>Absolutely ridiculous.</p>

<p>As I shoot weddings, during down time, I delete the shots with closed eyes, bad looks, or any other shot that I know isn't cutting it. Why am I going to keep them on there? If I take a total of 700-800 shots for the day, I'm down to 400-500 before I even walk out the door that evening. I narrow it down further when I get home or the next day.</p>

<p>Why would the bride want rejects with blinking eyes or whatever else caused you to not include it?</p>

<p>I've never been asked for ALL the shots, but I have been asked how many shots I took. I NEVER answer that question. If I do, they are expecting that many images.</p>

<p>To sum all this rambling up: "Sorry, I need to honor the policy." End of it. You can't please everyone, and sad to say, but some people are simply out to be a pain in the neck.</p>

[vincetylor]

<p>I have not read any of the replies since am heading out the door. But I can't see why you wouldn't just delete the really bad (blurry, over-exposed etc shots) and give her everything else. What <i><b>YOU</b></i> think is a bad shot, she may not. It's her only wedding. She wants to see them all. It would make her happy. So what's the big problem? You're making a bigger deal out of this, IMO, than necessary.</p>

<p> </p>

[william-porter]

<p>@ Crystal S.: Normal folks take few photos, like 'em all, and most of them are about equally mediocre. They don't realize that us working photographers usually take a lot more photos than amateurs - and that the difference in quality between our best and our worst can be dramatic. I've never been one of those who boasts about how many photos he takes. Actually, that's not quite true. When I first started shooting digital, circa 2000, I remember being very impressed with how many photos I shot. After thirty years of shooting film, most of it as an amateur, I was initially blown away by the fact that digital liberated me to take lots of shots. My attitude has changed a lot, as I've gotten better as a digital photographer and also as my raw files have gotten larger. I now want to take as few photos as I need to get the job done and no more. I read an article last year (may have been in Rangefinder, can't remember) about a great portrait photographer. Apparently she invites the subjects to her studio, talks to them a bit, has some tea or coffee, gets them comfortable, and then takes like TWO photos. And they're always great. Very, very impressive. I would love to have a fraction of her confidence and mastery.</p>

<p>@ William Morgan: Thanks very much for the tip about renaming the photos so that the names reflect the capture timestamp. I can do this easily in Lightroom - just previously have not had a motive to do so. I just tried it, it's easy as pie, and seems like a terrific idea for many other reasons. I think I've just added a new step to my workflow. Thanks again. (By the way, it's not for me to declare the thread dead. I got my answer and made my decision a while back.)</p>

<p>@ Ryan A. and Vincent T.: I'm sorry my thread has wasted your time. I am not making a big deal out of it. I just asked a simple question, to see what a few other people have to say. Got some useful answers, made my decision, and at that point the practical matter was closed for me. I've continued to respond to people out of gratitude to those who have posted. You're right, you can't please everybody. But I try. :-)</p>

[richard_lewis3]

<p>William<br />First, I applaud your concern for the bride looking at a very important day in her life. (She may feel it is THE most important one at this point. Who knows how she'll feel later?) Your empathy is what keeps customers feeling like people and not cattle in today's intense business environment, which is exacerbated by this problem economy. Whether her concerns are social, financial, or something else may best define your best approach to satisfy both her and your business going forward.</p>

<p>My suggestion would be, as mentioned by others, to approach her up front by asking her why she wants all of them. Then tailor your answer to the cause. If it's financial, I'd point out that you're working on a very tight margin and have given her the best pricing based on the images she's received, or will receive if this hasn't yet happened. If you need to do any additional work with her project, you'll need additional compensation at a fair hourly basis. (Do this no matter what the reason for her additional request, including other than financial concerns!) If it's social and she thinks something has been missed that's important to her, the approach suggested above of letting her review the extras, without releasing them, could likely work. I'd suggest even culling these as well to eliminate any that would be embarrassing to you or your business.</p>

<p>In any event, it's important to strike a balance between meeting the concerns of the customer (since the best advertising you can obtain is a satisfied customer), and maintaining good business policies and practices. Once you start changing the latter for one customer, you have the potential for that changing other customer's expectations, both prior and future ones. But remember that one of the advantages of being a small business, or sole proprietorship, is the ability to be flexible and meet different customer needs with different approaches, so "most" are well satisfied. You'll never satisfy everyone, but that shouldn't keep you from trying. Good luck!</p>

[kiva]

<p>Hi Richard ... how do you think the bride would respond to a suggestion to charge her more money for a product she "believes" is already hers and she's demanding and expecting to have them turned over to her? </p>

<p> </p>

[cathy_and_david_bock]

<p>Raymond. Remember that there are 2 photographers, not one.<br>

Kevin. How's it goin'! :)</p>

[cjogo]

<p>We always include the RAW & jpeg of every image ...... however :: we do shoot manual on all exposures and do very little "full" PJ style. SO : no real accidental shots > the <strong>rejects </strong> would be eyes closed/ ill expressions/etc. Not improper exposures, focus, etc. Hand meters really do work keep you constant....</p>

<p>Our market is now calling for direct cards >> from the camera at the end of the wedding ....just a budget thing. So, we accomodate them and shoot Large Jpeg / with Raw > if the B&G have the funds later down the road...they can always contact us to process them. We deliver 4gig CF cards.</p>

[aldrich]

<p>Vincent,</p>

<p>I somewhat see where you are coming from...yes it is their day...but...</p>

<p>IMO, if you show someone all 1000 or however many shots you took...let's see. If a typical proof album has, say, 400 images, and you show all 1000...the other 600 aren't going to make you look very good. The lower the percentage of shots the client knows you showed them, the less impressed they will be. 400 out of 1000 is a pretty good ratio too...</p>

<p>If you gave me an all day event like a wedding and asked me to take 1000 or 2000 images, I guarantee you I can come up with 300 good ones, and I do not consider myself an A+ photographer yet. Even my Uncle Joe who doesn't even know how to work a disposable could get 100 great shots out of 2000. Sometimes, less is more (although I don't recommend a "spray n' pray" photographer). Imagine yourself as the client, knowing not much about photography. "OK, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, here are the 500 splendid shots that I captured on your special day. Oh! You wanted all of them? Well, here's the 1500 others..." What would you think of their skills? I know I wouldn't think as highly as prior to finding out that there was one good shot for every 4 taken.</p>

<p>IMO, the entire point of sharing your skills of photography with paying clientele is to show them the best of the best images you are capable of capturing. I would even go so far as to say that if a potential client requested that they see EVERY photo I take, I would simply tell them that we have a style mismatch, and they will be better off going with someone else. I will not subject myself to the pressure of feeling like <em>every single solitary shot</em> has to be <em>perfect</em>, or dang near it, and I also won't subject myself to giving a client images that I know are unacceptable. If it's not up to snuff, they will see that. Nothing says poor quality images like unbearable pressure. Some may perform best with an imaginary gun pointed at them. I prefer to be relaxed, and by setting a relaxing tone, my clients are more comfortable as well. I'm not saying I'm perfect, or right, or any of that...just stating that in my opinion, it just doesn't seem right to pass sub par work to anyone under any circumstance.</p>

[aldrich]

<p>William,</p>

<p>Not a waste of time at all. We are all friends here. This is just one of those topics where my opinion stands firm :-). Good luck, and of course, it is ultimately your decision. I promise not to hate you if you give all the images out!</p>

<p>--Ryan</p>

[bsd230]

<p>I agree stick with your written policy. Those are pictures of her wedding, but they are a representation of your work. The last thing you want is someone showing people a bunch of dud photos as if that is what represents your work. I would just reinterate to her that she will get all the quality photos. I have shot a little stuff on the side for people so I know what you what your going through. I think people are so obsessed with how they look in a picture that they will keep a really lousy photo of everyone else as long as they look good. They also often don't see the flaws in photos that we do.</p>

[william-porter]

<p>Writes Richard Lewis:</p>

<blockquote><em>In any event, it's important to strike a balance between meeting the concerns of the customer (since the best advertising you can obtain is a satisfied customer), and maintaining good business policies and practices. Once you start changing the latter for one customer, you have the potential for that changing other customer's expectations, both prior and future ones.</em></blockquote>

<p>Excellent point - and one I'm glad to be reminded of. In my case, as I am building my photography business, I'm willing to give special consideration to each new problem the first time I encounter it. With luck, I encounter it only once - moving on instead to new and different problems! Anyway, in this particular case I'm happy to bend my policy a bit to try to make her as happy as possible. Then learn and move on.<br>

-<br>

C Jo Gough writes:</p>

<blockquote><em>Our market is now calling for direct cards >> from the camera at the end of the wedding ....just a budget thing. So, we accomodate them and shoot Large Jpeg / with Raw > if the B&G have the funds later down the road...they can always contact us to process them. We deliver 4gig CF cards.</em></blockquote>

<p>That's very interesting. I admire your confidence just handing over the unprocessed - unreviewed? - photos to the client. I can't imagine myself doing that any time soon. But gosh, it would be nice and I can certainly see the business advantages. Thanks for mentioning this.<br>

-<br>

Ryan Aldrich writes:</p>

<blockquote><em>Not a waste of time at all. We are all friends here. This is just one of those topics where my opinion stands firm :-). Good luck, and of course, it is ultimately your decision. I promise not to hate you if you give all the images out!</em></blockquote>

<p>Thanks for responding again, Ryan. No, not giving everything out - but I decided to add quite a few extras. I've tweaked many of them quickly in Lightroom, and some of them are basically untweaked beyond the basic adjustments Lightroom does to my raw files on import. This is a compromise I am happy to make in this one case.<br>

-<br>

Brian Duffy writes:</p>

<blockquote><em>I think people are so obsessed with how they look in a picture that they will keep a really lousy photo of everyone else as long as they look good. They also often don't see the flaws in photos that we do.</em></blockquote>

<p>True. On the other hand, while it may be the case that everybody here is taking table shots and formals every one of which is worth framing, I suspect that the majority of the photos that I take at a wedding will be of interest mainly to the bride and groom or the people in the photo. I am quite content with that, indeed, if I weren't, I couldn't do this! And what this means is that, among the photos that I do NOT pick, there very well might be a few that will be valuable to the client for the client's own non-esthetic reasons.<br>

-<br>

NOTE carefully that my compromise - delivering more photos than I selected originally - does NOT mean that I'm putting more photos on the Web. And even then, most of the photos that I put on the Web are in private galleries. Yes, I'm letting photos that don't represent my best work get "out there." But almost by definition, the vast majority of what I do doesn't represent my BEST. C'est la guerre.</p>

[michael_notar1]

<p>@ C jo: why are you delivering CF cards as a final product, seems ridiculous IMHO. you say its driven by budget, so are they buying you CF cards or you including them them for free? i ask, how expensive is a DVD to burn? ;)</p>

<p>i understand making cheaper cars for people to drive in these hard times...i dont understand selling them a heap of raw uncast metal, plastic and rubber.</p>

<p> </p>

[cjogo]

<p>MICHAEL :: We charge for CS time and some brides are leaving the same night or early morn > no need to work the late night hours to rush the next day to deliver a DVD ---4gb cards are under $20 @ Costco. Film was costing us way more. The price of the card is factored in. If you charge an average $255 per hour and have absolutely no CS time > it makes one very affordable these days. { And we save the time looking through 400 / 300 images } Not every B&G has the $3k to spend these days.<p> -I love the creative shooting side, of course. But, I would do anything to keep from sitting in front of a computer editing. I pre-edit in the visual/manual exposure >> before I capture.</p>

[david smith]

<p>David Haas has the answer. You don't want everyone to see your junk shots but she wants to make sure she's not missing anything. Let her view without being able to circulate the shots to anyone else.</p>

[savagesax]

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=5086841">Cathy and David Bock</a> Holy cow 6000 to 8000 images per wedding? I think thats a new photo.net record! How do you edit? Must take you 20 to 30 hours to go through that many images. Thats respected dedication for sure. I shot 3 weddings this weekend, probably shot a max of 2000 for all 3 gigs. My back was fried. My back would be dead for a week holding a camera that long. I have a bad back, ruptured a disk requiring surgery many years ago. Anyway I'm impressed. I hope you don't use heavy cameras and brackets too.</p>

<p>How often do you replace the cameras or the shutters? What cameras do you use? If you shoot 40 weddings a year you have about 300,000 clicks on your camera. Most camera companies suggest replacing the shutter every 100,000 clicks. The better cameras can go up to 300,000 clicks.</p>

<p>Lastly, can I ask a personal question about your business? How much do you charge for all of this hard work? If I'm out of line for asking please forgive me. I'm just impressed with your dedication.</p>

[cjogo]

<p>I think the B&G should know you are shooting all these "junk shots" > on their time ;-) >> as a professional photographer one should be able to deliver their best ~~~ before they click the shutter <strong>:[</strong> <br>

You should be in control :: not the trigger happy camera.</p>

[albert_richardson1]

<p>The issue is that she says you didn't give her what she paid you for. This would be the heart of the contest if she paid you with a credit card and had bank return her money to her for you not performing your job to her expectation. So this is where you take your stand.</p>

<p>As reasonably as possible (and you have not given much of an account of the actual conversations you have had with your client) explain that, just as the cabinetmaker does not sell the scraps with the furniture, there is nothing to be gained in you simply giving her the outtakes as part of the main package. However, if she insists, and you can see that the harm she may do to your business by establishing a legacy of complaining about you and what she will surely describe as your lousy service, you might consider giving in to her as suggested previously. The alternative is called 'winning the battle and losing the war.'</p>

<p>The respect you show your client in disagreements like this is exactly what the notion conveyed in the old expression "the customer is always right" is intended to help you understand. The point is to cut short the conflict in the best way possible for your business. There is a time to eat crow, and this might be it. You must talk with her to find out what she really wants from you. Show an interest in her position. Perhaps she is looking for a shot of a specific person you didn't give her yet. Perhaps she has some other goal in mind that would actually make sense if you take the time to help her. This can lead to what we call 'add-on sales.'</p>

<p>A good outcome would be for her to wind up thinking that you are a good person. If she is simply being unreasonable herself, then just show her the pictures. It is better for her to see you as a reasonable, honest businessperson than it is to prolong a fight with her because you fear giving her the very proof she needs to think you're a lousy photographer! You don't have to explain what the outtakes are or why you took them. They are what they are - the scraps. The good stuff in her album will speak for itself.</p>