Help a landscape photographer shoot a company picnic (people)

[tom grubbe]

<p>Hi, I normally shoot landscapes/scenics with a tripod, velvia,

etc. But my company asked my to shoot/document this year's Summer

Picnic at a park in California since I'm the "photographer guy" in

the company (the picnic is July 28th 2002). I did this last year and

the results were horrible - I'm good at landscape/scenic stuff but

need some help with this kind of shoot.</p>

 

<p>The equipment I'll have is:</p>

<ul>

<li>Canon EOS 1V</li>

<li>Canon 24-85 zoom</li>

<li>Canon 70-300 IS zoom</li>

<li>Film ???</li>

</ul>

 

<p>Last year I shot with Elite chrome 200 I think. The shots were at

high noon or near thereabouts and the shadows were killers, I was

uncomforable shooting people even though I knew them and handholding

(with flash) was very weird for a landscape guy like me.</p>

 

<p>I need the following advice:<p>

 

<ol>

<li>What (slide) film should I use for a summer afternoon people-

shoot?</li>

<li>What approach should I use when I see a good subject/situation

knowing that I'm still uncomforable shooting this way?</li>

<li>The only good shot last year was the "group shot" with everyone

posing/smiling. Any advice for the group shot is also

appreciated.</li>

</ol>

 

<p>Note, this not a professional gig but rather a documentary kind of

thing and of course an opportunity for me to learn ;-)</p>

 

<p>Thanks for and advice!</p>

 

<p>--Tom Grubbe<br>

http://www.tomgrubbe.com</p>

[tom grubbe]

NOTE: I'll probably be handholding for everything except the "group shot"...

[tom grubbe]

Shit, did I post this in the wrong place? I'm seeing only pictures here... (?)

[karel_geertsema]

Hi Tom,

 

From shooting landscapes (slides only) to a wedding for friends last februari I know what you (might) feel :-)

 

1. I would suggest: forget slides and go for a low(er) contrast film. This will help you with your shadow problem and makes ordering reprints easier. For the wedding I used Kodak Portra 400 VC (Vivid Color). There is also Portra 160 and both come in NC (natural color) versions too. Some people prefer Fuji (I think it is NPH and NPS).

Maybe consider buying a flash! Especially if your boss is willing to pay for it :-) This will be good for the shadow problem in bright sunlight.

 

2. Use the tele zoom to keep a -slight- distance (I loved a 100mm lens for the wedding, did most of the pictures with that one). You know the people at that party, so have a good time and shoot!

 

3. For (group)portraits you will find lots of usefull information on the (wedding oriented) site www.zuga.net. Go to archives/free lessons and then wedding/people/portrait (don't know exactly what it is called but you'll find it).

 

Relax! Have fun!

[jdkindy]

Portra is a good film for something like this (NPS or NPC would be as well). They are all lower contrast films made for portraiture. I'd probably recommend the 160 speed films (NPH is 400) to keep shutter speeds slower, especially if you do not have an EX (E-TTL capable - more importantly FP capable) flash.

 

Get an EX-series flash and use it for fill. That will take care of the shadows. If you don't want to use flash, make sure there's a huge white tent, and only take pictures underneath the tent!

 

I've never used it, but a lot of people on Photo.net like Fuji Astia for slide film portraits. I'm not sure which others would work well. Most people will tell you NOT to shoot Velvia.

 

Good Luck! - jdk

[glenn_travis]

Tom, I checked out your portfolio, and it's very, very nice. There's no reason you can't get great people shots. Just treat them like landscapes. I, too would go with print film, simply because you can get double, double prints to pass around, and if anyone wants a copy, then it's easy. The first thing I'd do is go simple, I'd take only one lens (I'd go with the 24-85mm,) maybe a flash for fill, or maybe not, and film (your choice, you know what you're doing.) And the second thing I'd do, is when you hit the party, have a couple of beers, and enjoy your self. Relax, follow your instincts, and don't become a slave to photography, let it be a slave to you. To me, a camera is a toy, just let it entertain you.

[fotografz]

To my knowledge no wedding photographer I know uses slide

film (if that's a hint). Select any color neg film in the 160 to 200

ISO range and rate it at a slightly lower ISO ( neg film has a wider

margin of exposure tolerance than slides, but doesn't like under

exposure all that much ).

 

Your EOS 1v has one of the most sophisticated flash control

systems in the universe, so all you need is a Canon ETTL based

flash to take advantage of what you already paid big bucks for.

This includes the ability to set high speed sync flash at very high

shutter speeds for fill-flash of action shots with your 70-200 IS.

If you can't afford one, then any flash with an Auto setting will

have to do...but get a flash to use as fill or you'll face those "black

eye socket", "no face under that hat" contrast problems again.

 

I've tried to post an illustration as example; a shot from a

"Cowboy Wedding" where everyone was wearing hats in dead

overhead bright sun. Without fill flash the subjects in this shot

would've had their faces in dark shadow cast by their hat brim.<div></div>

[sliu]

There are enough advice on equipment. I want to share my

shooting experience with you.

 

A picnic is supposed to be fun. So please relax and make sure

you have fun first. Besides official posed group shot, I think you

should take as many snapshots of people as possible.

 

If there are kids, that would be great. Take shot of kids playing.

To take nice picture of people, you should avoid formal posing

and try to get close and catch their conversation, expression,

motion with proper background. You should act like a "spy"

looking for moments. Don't think too much about photography or

learn something. The key is "catching the happy moment".

 

Of course, don't forget get to take some good landscape photo

too. And also the food ;-)

 

Good luck.

 

I will give some examples here.<div></div>

[sliu]

Food<div></div>

[sliu]

Expression<div></div>

[sliu]

Game<div></div>

[sliu]

Technical notes: all photos above were taken with a 38-76mm

zoom lens and no flash at all ;-)

[fotografz]

I don't think implying that a flash is unnecessary, then showing

images taken on an overcast day is the best advice based on

what problems Tom presented. Last year he suffered for the

shadows at high noon. This year it sounds like it'll be a repeat

of the same conditions. I also was roped into shooting my Wifes'

company picnic. And, on cue, it was harsh midday summer sun

made even worse by the fact it was at a lake. The following

images are all from a camera much like yours Tom, using High

Speed Sync fill flash ( which your camera will do with a touch of a

button). Without fill NONE of these pictures would've come out

very well. Note the saturated colors which fill flash allows

because you don't have to open up to compensate for harsh

facial shadows (which blows out the backgrounds, and whitens

the blue sky).<div></div>

[fotografz]

Here's another using fill. without it this womans' face would've

been in deep shadow. If I had opened up instead of using fill, her

white hat would've disappeared completely and the background

would've washed out<div></div>

[fotografz]

One more fill flash example. Not only midday summer sun, but

reflections from water. Without fill I could not capture the vivid

colors of the tubes without throwing the back lit faces into deep

shadow. Tom, get a ETTL flash. You'll be able to use it for other

situations besides this one.<div></div>

[sliu]

I am not talking about the hardware, flash or other photography

technique issue in my post because you already did it. I just give

some ideas on what to shoot.

 

Perhaps he already know what to shoot and how to shoot, then

all he needs to know is how to use fill flash to solve the harsh

light problem. If this is the case, your advice is all he needs.

[Spearhead]

<i>all photos above were taken with a 38-76mm zoom lens and no flash at all</i><p>

 

They all make a good argument for the use of fill flash also.

[glenn_travis]

Marc, for some reason, the fill-flash examples aren't showing up that well on my monitor. The cowboy wedding faces look extremely chalky, but the horses reproduced well. With the portrait of the Woman, there is a wide dark band below the brim of the hat, across the sunglasses, and the hat looks washed out, also the brim looks like the flash is going through it. It's like the flash is up too high to do much good. The girls (in the rudder ducky's) faces look blochy on my monitor. With the young boy, I wasn't quite sure what I was suppose to be seeing. Anyway, I'm using a new flat panel monitor, so maybe it will improve once I get the color keyed in. With S LIU's examples, it seemed pretty obvious to me that the latitude was compressed, and a fill flash may not have been needed. The darkness of the examples seemed to be more of a scanner problem rather than photo technique.

[fotografz]

It's your monitor Glenn... except perhaps the band under the brim

of the womans' hat which is due to her graduated brown-tint sun

glasses. My LaCie Blue monitor is calibrated for professional

advertising work, and is RGB linked to a number of Art Directors

monitors for professional networking between one another,

which in turn are linked to our printing houses for conversion

from RGB to CMYK. The only place I use a flat screen monitor is

for a place to put my tools, and get them off the LaCie screen.

[Spearhead]

<i>did I post this in the wrong place? </i><p>

 

Hopefully not. This should be a place you can get some good advice and some examples for people photography.<p>

 

However, you are probably ill-served by a long string of photos that appear to be demonstrations of what <i>not</i> to do. Key issues that seem ignored in some of the photos are a) get close and make people the subject, and b) watch the lighting. With respect to b), you have several choices including modifying the lighting, as Marc's photos demonstrate well. If you can't modify the lighitng, move the subjects or look for a way to use the hard lighting.<p>

 

Shooting people is <i>not</i> like shooting landscapes. There's a reason why there has been so little overlap between great people shooters and great landscape shooters. That doesn't mean you can't do a good job, but you have to think about the things that make a difference. Landscape photography usually allows for careful composition, changing lenses, bracketing, etc. etc. People photography is often "of the moment," requiring good reflexes, an ability to compose and see the light quickly, and an ability to interact well with the subjects. People shooters often run through much more film, because there is too much going on know if everything was captured as desired. The great Japanese photographer Nobuyshi Araki shot <i>6000</i> frames in two days for a fashion book "100 Flowers, 100 Butterflies</i> with the book containing just 100 images of women. <p>

 

 

Marc's images look fine. I use two monitors - one is a spyder-calibrated CRT and the other an uncalibrated LCD - and they look good on both, although I don't usually judge image quality on the LCD.

[sliu]

I agree with you that those 38-76 mm non-flash shots

demonstrate bad reflexes, inablity to compose and see the light

and no iteraction with the subject.

<p>

But this is not a photo critique forum and those photos are just a

demonstration of some shooting <b>ideas</b> in events like

picnic. If you think these photos do not live up to your technical

standard of this forum, you can simply remove them.

<p>

As I said before, I do not intend to discuss technical issue

because Marc did very good technical demonstration.

<p>

If all people photographs are shot as a super sharp, wide angle

or tele-lens closeup, B&W street photograph (whatever your

definition is), this world would be very boring.

<p>

--- A snapshooter

[tom grubbe]

<p>Thanks guys,</p>

 

<p>Jeff, thanks for the very helpful comment which prompts me to clarify my question a bit:</p>

<ul>

<li>The film suggestions are very useful but I need to use slide film since the Minolta Dimage Scan multi only supports slides.</li>

<li>I gave the wrong impression about the shadows. I used a TTL flash unit last year (Sunpak Power Zoom 4000AF) but I probably <b>mis-used</b> it (didn't know when to choose TTL, FULL, 1/6, zoom, etc. or wouldn't go off at all). If there's a resource/link on flash usage gimmie a link, or maybe advice on a new flash unit ;)</li>

<li>Jeff touched on what I really need to get into my head - the approach to shooting people versus the slow set-up of a landscape shoot. For example, I would actually shoot them while they were eating (yuk) or often would shoot a decent subject but have a ton of distractions (other picnickers) get in the way.</li>

</ul>

 

<p>The above examples help even if they're not perfect shots. Maybe I can post one from last year...</p>

 

<p>--Tom</p><div></div>

[tom grubbe]

<p>Another terrible shot. The flash didn't go off as I thought it would (who knows why)...</p>

 

<p>--Tom</p><div></div>

[tom grubbe]

<p>Last update:</p>

<p>Last year's shots (above) were taken with a Canon EOS Elan II with that Sunpack flash unit. I just tried it on the EOS 1V with a booster attached at 1/250th and it's pretty darn nice with continuous shooting. Maybe it'll be easier this year with the 1V, hmmm...</p>

 

<p>--Tom</p>

[kenneth darling soerensen]

Tom,

 

Your scanner only supports slides? That sounds very odd to me!

 

If it's this one (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/DSM/DSMA.HTM) then this review states that both 35mm slide, 35 mm film and Medium format holders come with the scanner..

 

I also found a posting on Usenet from 1998 (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=ee85db2d0dfaa505&rnum=4) where someone writes that he uses it for slides and negs.

 

Regards

Kenneth