Hasselblad film vs. Mamiya ZD digital for landscape work

[ken_lo]

I live in Hong Kong, and an opportunity like paying a visit to Yosemite doesn't come easily. But now I do have a

business trip to Las Vegas in June, and I am planning to spend a few days taking pictures in Yosemite afterwards.

This is going to be a very exciting opportunity for me, as with a family with two small kids, it is always hard to find

the time for such an excursion.

 

Initially my plans are to bring my Hasselblad 205TCC with a few primes, my 903SWC, an Xpan and a M8 for digital

backup. For film, I will either shoot Velvia 50 or Fortia SP 50... Actually I am still trying to get some Fortia films

from a local guy. But yesterday after talking to a friend, he said that he is willing to lend me his Mamiya ZD (not the

ZD back, but the actual ZD dslr) plus a few lenses for this trip. I have never shot with a medium format digital

camera before, although I have heard how superior they are when compared to the best full frame dslr's...

 

A few years ago I went to Jiuzhaigou, a beautiful national park in western China. I shot with my 1Ds mk2 at the

time, and I had made quite a few 24x36 prints which are still hanging up on the walls of my office. Resolution wise I

think the 1Ds mk2 files were quite good, but for some reasons the pictures still look very "digital", and not three

dimensional and with a smooth tonal gradation like slides had given me over the years. In short, I am not very

satisfied. And that's precisely why I had decided against the 1Ds mk2 on this trip. In fact, I figure that even

upgrading to either the 5D mk2 or 1Ds mk3 wouldn't make that much of a difference.

 

I feel comfortable with the 205TCC shooting slides, as the slides always look great under a loupe. However, I had

never drum scanned my 6x6 slides and made prints out of them before. This time around, I know making prints is

going to be a priority. Now with the option to bring a ZD, I am now stuck with a great dilemma. From what I have

been told, although the ZD only has 22mp, its files should be much better than any 135 full frame dslr's because of

the superior size of the CCD. Everyone who shoots digital medium format says that digital medium format can

easily surpass scanned 6x6 slides, and it will produce the 3D look that I have always longed for in digital.

 

I am not sure what to do, and who to believe. I realize that all my options are great, and either way I probably won't

go wrong. But since there are so many experienced photographers and experts available here, I am hopeful that I

can gain some meaningful insights here. Thanks in advance for all your valuable inputs.

 

Regards,

Ken

[fotografz]

<p>This is not an easy question to answer because there are a number of factors to consider.</p>

<p>It would be an easy one for me personally ... I'd stick with my 203FE and Zeiss primes for a project of this type. Even though I have 31 meg and 39 meg digital backs, I prefer film when not doing commercial photography. </p>

<p>You seem very comfortable with shooting slides, and good scans of well exposed ISO 50 films is aesthetically the equal to any digital back IMO. For you ... one is an unknown, where the film option is well known to you. Plus, the shots from the 903 will match.</p>

<p>Now this is not dissing digital ... I personally love it and have taken both a Contax 645 film camera and a Hasselbld H3D/39 on location in Arizonia and Nevada. There is just something about film that keeps me shooting it.</p>

<p>That said, IF you decide to take your friend up on his generious offer to use the ZD, I would secure a Hasselblad to Mamiya adapter and take both the 205TCC and the ZD body ... and use one set of Zeiss FE primes. That would give you the best of both worlds and allow you to actually see if you prefer one over the other after you get back. </p>

[trex1]

Why not just take one camera and be done with it? Any one of the cameras you mention above would be great. If it was me I would take just the Xpan. And a mountain of film for the mountains of photos of mountains you will take in the mountains. And the desert.

[djcphoto]

<p>Personally I would try and borrow the Mamiya well before your intended trip and give it a good workout before deciding to make sure you are comfortable using it and, more importantly, to see if you like the results.</p>

<p>I also agree somewhat with Darius; I have made the mistake of taking multiple systems on trips before and spend more time trying to decide which one to shoot with than I do shooting! I love everything about my Hasselblads and I now travel with just a 500C/M (and a spare body in case of failures), three lenses, and a small digital P&S for snapshots.</p>

<p>I've seen some very impressive shots from the ZD, but I don't know if I'd give up the quality of results I get from my Hasselblad for it.</p>

<p>Good luck with your decision!</p>

[stuart_richardson]

<p>Marc's idea about the adapter is a good one. That said, I think the combination of the M8 and 205 will serve you very well. Between the two of them, you will be able to cover all your bases. I don't think the ZD will really add any additional quality to that kit. The M8 and lenses are very good for this sort of work, and the Hasselblad is perfect for it. 22mp digital can be lovely, but if you are not familiar with its limitations and benefits, it is not worth trying to figure it out for a trip. Use the gear you are familiar with...it is certainly among the highest quality gear you can get. <br>

Finally, I would recommend you try Fortia SP before you use it -- the colors are really garish and the contrast is very very high. It is not a very pleasant film in my eyes at least. </p>

[stuart_richardson]

<p>By the way, I shoot medium format digital, and I don't think it can easily surpass scanned 6x6 slides. It may have more resolution and sharpness in certain cases, but a properly exposed slide still looks better to me in most cases. </p>

[swilson]

<p>

<p>It is going to be very hard for any print to come close to the look of a slide. A slide will produce an image with a dynamic range of around 1000:1, a print is going to be closer to 50:1.</p>

<p>Many of my photos look far more 3D when viewed on my monitor at night, when I get very good contrast, compared to during the day when the contrast is not so good.</p>

<p>A print can still look 3D but is takes a photo that was taken in good light, the right FL lens and sometime the use of selective focus. But even then a print is never going to look as 3D as a slide can.</p>

 

</p>

[ken_lo]

<p>Thanks for everyone's comments. I feel much more comfortable now shooting with film and not missing out on the opportunity to go with the ZD. To bring both the 205TCC and ZD is probably the best option, but I do want to have my Xpan and an M8 handy for panoramic format and maybe some street photography respectively.</p>

<p>I do appreciate all the medium format digital users' comments, who have undoubtedly reinforced my belief in slides, and yes, I will probably have to stick to Velvia as finding the Fortia SP is going to be difficult. Maybe I should also try Kodak E100VS... For Velvia 50, I usually set the ISO to 40 as increasing the exposure by 1/3 stop, in my opinion, produces better exposed images. Any suggestions for E100VS?</p>

<p>Regards,<br>

Ken</p>

 

[Ed_Ingold]

<p>[double post]</p>

[Ed_Ingold]

<p>You would do well taking EITHER the Hasselblad or the Canon 1DsMkII. Both will give you a good 16x20 inch (or larger) print. Depending on which lenses you have, the Canon might be more versatile, especially with regard to long lenses. Yosemite is a big place with bold relief. Why flatten it with wide angle shots? The XPan is different, but I think stitched panoramas would work just as well - if something MOVES at Yosemite, you'll have things other than photography to worry about ;-) On the whole, I'd be concerned about schlepping too much gear, rather to make the best use of what I did carry. I just got back from the Smokies, where I carried just an Hasselblad and four lenses (in China, I carried a D2x and two lenses, plus a largish HD dvcam).</p>

<p>I would never rent or borrow a camera for a place I might not visit again for a long time. Take something you are comfortable with. Whether you can better results on film vs digital is a personal matter. IMO, slides look great on a light table, but not as good when printed as negative film or digital. A lot depends on your skills at the preparation and printing end. The M8 would be a good choice for "people" pictures, if you like pictures of tourists in shorts and sandals. I doubt that cameras are permitted inside the shows and casinos.</p>

[oskar_ojala]

<p>I think that a 6x6 slide can easily produce a high quality print of the size that you are looking for. I haven't used a ZD, but I assume that it can also produce a high quality print of that size. Personally I would probably go with the Hasselblad + M8 and plan your logistics of bringing film (June sounds like a hot month...) The M8 could also serve for some scenic shots and stitched shots.<br>

As for film, I'm not so thrilled about E100VS since the grain is not so fine and the colors sometimes get too strong, but some people like it and I've made some good images using it. I'm more on the lines of Astia, Velvia 100 and negatives, but choose carefully. Usually it's good to pick two films that complement each other so that you can switch backs when the conditions change, e.g. Velvia 50 is not that good for long exposures but Provia and Astia are.</p>

[hugh_sakols]

<p>I agree with what was said earlier - first take what your comfortable using and don't bring too much STUFF. A few days in Yosemite is not long. Your real challenge will be finding good summer light. Yosemite in the summer can have weeks on end of blazing bright sunny days which makes the only time for photography very early or just before sunset. Of course you may be surprised by a summer storm but last year we only had a few. I have recently gone back to using my Bronica 6x6 because I miss the square. </p>

<p>www.yosemitecollection.com</p>

[johnw436]

<p>I would hate to see my friend's digital back get rained on or fall into a mud puddle... or dropped. If it was my own gear I might risk it. </p>

[35mmdelux]

<p>for good landscapes you'll need a tripod as well. Combined with all that gear you plan to take means you'll be shooting from the parking lot. Bring a daypack and keep it simple.</p>

<p>Also, be careful treking as there are quite a few walking accidents involving folks without any gear at all!</p>

<p>Enjoy your trip and welcome to California. Paul</p>

[charleseagan]

<p>I have the Mamiya 645 AFD with ZD back, I have been amazed at the detail. I don't think you will be disappointed for having used the ZD camera. You should know, however that the camera works best at ISO 50, but since you're shooting landscapes, that should not be a problem. Also, be sure to use a tripod for razor sharp images. The large dalsa ccd combined with mamiya glass is excellent for capturing extreme detail.</p>

[ken_lo]

<p>There has really been a lot of excellent feedbacks, and I am wholeheartedly grateful for all your insights. In conclusion, I have decided to stay away from borrowing the ZD, and shoot film instead. The M8 and Xpan will come along, and although some have expressed concerns about the weight that I will have to carry, in the worst scenarios I will just leave some of the gears back in the car. I think that's a much better decision than regretting once I get there and without the equipment I need.</p>

<p>I hope that this will turn out to be rewarding, as I don't get very many photoshooting opportunities. It's been a few years since I last shot film, and I can't wait to get back into shooting some beautiful slides!</p>

<p>Regards,<br>

Ken</p>

[oskar_ojala]

<p>Don't leave equipment of this caliber in the car, even many travel insurances do not cover theft from unwatched cars.<br>

If you set on what equipment you bring, you can practice carrying it beforehand. Having it all in a backpack for a day in the hot and humid environment of Hong Kong should provide good experience and exercise. And you still have a 2-3 months to work out; being in good shape is very useful on photographic trips.</p>

[ken_lo]

<p>Oskar, I did pack everything in a backpack and tried it out today. It's not as bad as I thought, and I think it's going to be fine. Don't get me wrong as it will never be easy lugging so much equipment, but personally I think it's worth it. I don't get this kind of serious photoshooting opportunities a lot, and I want to make sure this becomes a memorable experience!</p>

[berlinhennig]

<blockquote>

<p>I don't get this kind of serious photoshooting opportunities a lot, and I want to make sure this becomes a memorable experience!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Do you believe that you will see or enjoy even a piece of one of the many natural wonders there? Probably the only thing you might see will be the ocular of one of your cameras. I think it doesn't matter where you are as long as you are able to take pictures. What a pitty.</p>

 

[stp]

<p>Ken, if you've never tried a certain film before (e.g., Kodak E100VS), be sure to try it before the trip. The best film (like equipment) at a particular moment in time is what you are most familiar with. A trip like this is not the best way to experiment.</p>

[philippartridge]

<p>More semi-gratuitous advice: whatever you take, use it several times in the field to get fully accustomed to it before your key shoots; you want it to be second nature once you get there. This is especially important if you use two systems/cameras.<br>

Make sure your tripod technique/ cable release and camera controls are set up smooth for you to use quickly. Stay calm in the face of outstanding natural beauty and focus on the part you want to bring to it - excellent composition and technique. Carry a small mesh bag for your knick knacks (lens caps, filter boxes, CRs, etc.) and put it under/near the tripod; these things are so easy to lose if you are like me, hunting around for the best vantage point.<br>

MF film IQ degrades slowly with increasing enlargement sizes, perhaps why your 24x36 DSLR images disappointed in comparison. Take enough slide film to at least bracket the special frames 2/3 stop up and down. If you can manage it, use a good handheld meter to check the frame's DR, or get very familiar with your in-camera meter if you have one.<br>

Take a wide DR range film; most are just beautiful in MF and very sharp, like NC160 and Reala. Sometimes more fussy to post-process but very often more satisfying than E6. No problems with brightness range with these, just make sure you do not under-expose - shoot at 1/3-1/2 stop faster than box speed. Ensure you have batteries and chargers under control. Remove any filters before shooting, unless you want a grad ND/pola filter. ALWAYS use a lens hood or good lens shading - hat, hand etc. Consider taking some Astia, enabling you to pick up an extra stop. Astia's shadows also open nicely though it lacks Velvia 50's edge acutance and visual assault. Don't be afraid to use small f-stops on MF film cameras - diffraction loses you far fewer shots than lack of DOF. F16, even F19 really helps with front/back compositions. Focus bracket if in doubt.<br>

Using two systems can be done, but requires great flexibility of mind and few choices to work well. This goes double for those who want to shoot each frame with two systems. I try to work out what works best for each camera, and stick to that for the most part: film with one lens for squarish shots (Mamiya 7) and digital for good reach, people, impromptu shots and fussy compositions with difficult framing. They just see the world so differently. For 3D and 'lustre' in 'scapes MF film simply delivers IMO; with a much higher keeper ratio. DSLR images can have their own charms though, and process up much more easily - hence two systems.<br>

On the debate whether photographers miss the experience by shooting much of the time - I don't believe so. Nature is more real, more expressive and immediate when you do not take it for granted; and we are privileged to be forced to look at it very closely - artistically. And of course, MF see much better than you do - I am forever finding distant birds and strange details in images; can't bring myself to remove them in post - they belong there.<br>

You are travelling, so carry an old 120 roll and be prepared to open it if the airport guys want to scan your film - tell them 120/220 has no metal in it, they often relax after hearing this. Tell them film degrades after five carry-on xray exposures - according to Kodak, who know a thing or two. If just one or two scans, all will be OK. I average 8-10 flights each trip so I attend to this matter carefully, and I am up to around 50 flights now with NO scans of my film.<br>

Just the basics, hah. Apologies for the long post. Have a great time.</p>

[ken_lo]

<p>Again, a lot of great advice... Thank you.</p>

<p>A slight change of plans has developed today! I managed to buy a used Hasselblad Ixpress 132C digital back, a 22MP back for both my 205TCC and 903SWC. I am so excited! With this, I probably won't bring any other system except for a film back for backup. Thanks to Philip for all the info on various films, many of which I haven't used before. I greatly appreciate all the help I have received, and in the next two months, I'll have to get myself familiarized with the new DB, and the softwares for post processing.</p>

<p>Yeah!!!</p>

[ken_lo]

<p>By the way, I have one more question on the Lee RF75 filter system. I have left a post in the "Filter, Bags, Tripods and Accessories" section, but haven't heard back in the last few days.</p>

<p>Here's the link: http://www.photo.net/filters-bags-tripods-accessories-forum/00SyS1</p>

<p>If anyone has any information that can be shared with me, please feel free to drop in a note. Thanks.</p>

<p>Regards,<br>

Ken</p>

[jerry_sousa]

<p>Ken,<br>

I think that the chance of you getting a shot in Yosemite, that you would want to enlarge and hang on your wall are low. There is no way that an amateur photographer, even with the best equipment that money can buy, can just show up in the park, take his gear out of it's case and hope to make a great photograph. Photography is not like that. The cameras you have are too sophisticated for that, and yourself, too inexperienced, and with family in tow...<br>

My advice would be this. If you really want to go down the medium format route then hire a photographic assistant who knows Hasselblads and the digital process, as well as knowing the light in Yosemite. Pay them extra so they can drive your rented car for you. This would give you the time to enjoy the scenery, your family and learn about your wonderful cameras. Otherwise, just stick with the Leica and the Xpan.</p>

[ken_lo]

<p>Jerry, I appreciate your feedbacks, but I'm going alone, and not with my family. I have done similar photoshooting excursions before, but just in China. I think I know what to expect, and at the end the experience would be much more rewarding TO ME if I were to do this on my own. I am planning to get a few photography guides for Yosemite and study them thoroughly prior to my trip.</p>

<p>Hiring an assistant is indeed an option, and probably something I would consider more seriously if I haven't had much success in the first few days...</p>