Pricing book cover for National Non-profit (relatively small run)

[diane_rose]

<p>Hi folks,<br>

I'm semi-professional (don't make my full living from photos... yet). <br>

In 1999, I was commissioned by a national (religous) non-profit to shoot a photo they could use on the cover of the pocket guide to their religion. The usual -- I shot slides, they picked which one they liked -- and I charged them $250. I would've come up with this number by looking in the current Photo Pricing handbook, approximating the print run, talking to people, doing some voodoo, and then I'm sure I discounted it, because it was a personal contact and it was my first commission and taking into account their budget. <br>

(I don't do a lot of publications. Most of my published images to date have been donations to non-profits for a good cause and to build a resume; most of my income comes from selling large-sized prints for personal and corporate, so as you can tell, I'm clueless about publishing.)<br>

Now, fast-forward to 2009. They have approached me asking for the rights to use the same image for the cover of another publication (not the main handbook). They say they can offer me $150 -- $100 less than 10 years ago. <br>

I don't know anything yet about the print run (probably a few thousand, but that's a guess) I'm totally taken aback by that low-ball offer. I plan to call to discuss this/negotiate with my contact. <br>

Truth is, my photo business is on a back burner due to illness and I'm not actively marketing my work at this time - so a sale that falls into my lap is a good thing. And in this economy, and considering that the work is done (I don't have to shoot it again), I will consider a heavily discounted price. <strong>But I thought I'd check in with the experts on photo.net to see if you have any sage advice</strong> <strong>-- either about ballpark prices or how to handle negotiations.</strong><br>

Any (constructive) advice is welcome!<br>

Thanks so much for reading this!<br>

Diane Rose</p>

[mikael_karlsson]

<p>Diane:</p>

<p>Even without knowing the print-run I think $150 is way too low for cover usage. Wait until you know the print-run, then post your question again and you'll get some accurate replies. I do a bit of work for various non-profit's and they pay the same fees like any other client. If I believe in their cause I might turn around and donate back a portion of the fee they paid but that's a personal choice of mine.</p>

<p>The fact that they're non-profit shouldn't have any impact on the pricing from a business point of view. Do you think their Executive Director gets paid? Do you think they can walk into OfficeMax and negotiate lower prices based on the fact that they're non-profit? In most states, a small number of non-profit are exempt from sales/use tax but that's pretty much it.</p>

[diane_rose]

<p>Mikael,<br>

Thanks so much for your reply. Negotiations went quite quickly... so it's already a done deal (just now as I started to type this)-- <strong>but I would still love to hear feedback on how I handled it</strong>!</p>

<ul>

<li>Printing of 3000 with no reprints</li>

<li>Used nationally by their congregations, no int'l printings</li>

<li>English-only </li>

<li>Book is 5x7 inches</li>

<li>72-pages of meditations</li>

<li>They put out a different meditations book yearly</li>

</ul>

<p>They implied that since I originally shot the photo for them at their request, that somehow it should make it cheaper. During a friendly conversation about what the project was, I told her in a nice way that I was "taken aback" by the price they offered me.<br>

I explained that they're paying for the intellectual property rights, which are the same whether I took the photo now or before. And that "I'm sure you understand" it's a business, etc... They told me they never paid more than $150 for one of these types of photos (and implied they usually use other photographers if they can't afford an image, etc.). I told her that the price is $250, and I'd appreciate it if she could talk to her production manager about whether they could do anything more than $150...even just $200. She came back to me soon after saying they'd agree to pay the full $250.<br>

<strong>Now does that seem like a reasonable price? </strong> (Relative to the starting price it feels like a win - especially since I stupidly put the $200 out there...) I would love to hear feedback about how you (and others) would have handled it, given that I didn't want to walk away from an easy sale. (Turns out they still have the production file from the old project, so I don't need to do anything but sign the letter allowing use.)<br>

[i was taken aback that they still had the file 10 years later; but clearly they honor copyright law and don't use it without an official contract - thankfully.]<br>

I really stink at negotiating, and I'm very uncomfortable doing it. I'm also uncomfortable setting prices in general since it's never cut and dry. <strong>I would love feedback on this situation so I can learn for the future.</strong><br>

Thanks!<br />Diane</p>

 

[mikael_karlsson]

<p>Diane:</p>

<p>If the $250 feels "right" for you, I'd say you did good. Especially taking into account the small print-run.</p>

<p>I wouldn't worry at all about publishers keeping the files for a number of years. I get reprint requests all the time for photos I submitted to various publishers 8 to 10 years ago. With each new edition there's a reprint request. I normally invoice 75 percent of the original fee for reprints if they still have the file(s) and there's no additional work required on my part.</p>

<p>How to successfully negotiate pricing is, I think, one of the biggest hurdles for many photographers. Personally I set myself a "walk away" fee before the negotiations. If the fee they offer is below the walk away fee, I respectfully decline the usage. I'd guesstimate that roughly 7 to 8 of 10 publishers come back with a higher offer. Mostly because there's too much work and effort for them to find a similar photo elsewhere. Then again, I am very specialized in a narrow field since I shoot law enforcement, prisons, forensics and related topics only.</p>

<p>There's also a number of publishers that use many of my images all the time that I have negotiated a "preferred vendor" contract with. They come to me first when they have an image need in my field and for that they get a slightly lower fee compared to a new client.</p>

[diane_rose]

<p>Mikael,<br>

Thanks - that's helpful. <br>

Do you know of any books about pricing photos that (the ones with charts for size of printing, where photo used, etc.) are especially helpful in this exercise to find the right price? Part of my problem is that - not usually getting published - I have priced myself lower than a true professional to get the resume/experience. But then I don't want to get stuck in that level of expectations by the same organization later. Also some of these organizations are ones that use the work of 'local artists' (amateurs), so I don't know if they are used to working with professionals. It's so hard to figure this stuff out -- it definitely seems more art than science when coming up with prices! That's a great idea to have preferred vendors - I must remember that. Would your 75% price on reprints include using the same photo on a different book? (i.e. is it reprinting the image or reprinting the same book?)<br>

Again, thanks for the feedback. It's greatly appreciated!<br>

Diane</p>

[mikael_karlsson]

<p>Diane:</p>

<p>Here are some resources:<br>

http://www.amazon.com/Pricing-Photography-Complete-Assignment-Prices/dp/1581152078/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238797860&sr=8-1<br>

http://www.amazon.com/ASMP-Professional-Business-Practices-Photography/dp/1581154976/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238797931&sr=8-2<br>

http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Market-Editors-Writers-Digest/dp/1582975469/ref=pd_bbs_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238797963&sr=8-3</p>

<p>Photographers Market is also a good resource for finding other publications, publishers etc that might be interested in your work. The book lists quite a bit of information about companies listed such as general pricing information, how they want images sent to them, contact info etc.</p>

<p>One resource that is upgraded much more frequently than "regular books" is FotoQuote from Cradoc Bradshaw. Excellent software that also helps you print professional looking invoices. Check it out at http://www.cradocfotosoftware.com/fotoQuote-Pro/index.html</p>

<p>Hope that helps.</p>

[diane_rose]

<p>Thanks Mikael, that's really helpful. I so rarely work with stock/publication sales that I haven't bought the Photographers' Market or the pricing book for almost a decade. It's time I get them again, and look into the other sources you mentioned; so I'll be prepared next time!<br>

BTW, since you are being such a great resource, can I ask you your opinion of online stock websites like iStockPhoto.com? It's a bit confusing since they talk about getting royalties (which look like cents!) from 'royalty-free' images... but with the tantalizing offer that their top-sellers get into Getty, etc. I would love to know what you know and think of this type of website. My gut says avoid it, but I'm having trouble understanding how it works.<br>

Thanks again for all the help and advice - it's much appreciated!<br />Diane</p>

[mikael_karlsson]

<p>Diane:</p>

<p>My personal opinion is to stay away from the micro-agencies like iStockPhoto et al. Sign up with Alamy instead. The sale prices are much higher and you get 60% of the fee. I've had sales at Alamy ranging from $59.14 to $1.700 and am very happy with the number of my images they license every month.</p>

<p>In addition I'd sign up with a US agency that specializes in the topics you photograph. Just make sure that the agency you sign up with is non-exclusive.</p>

<p>Hope that helps.</p>

[diane_rose]

<p>Thank you, that's wonderfully helpful!<br>

Thanks so much!<br />Diane</p>